Ben's Thread

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forgetmenot
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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:15 am

Hey Ben :-)
I look and there is nothing there to "choose" or control anything.
Wonderful!
So what did you see from doing the GREEN label exercise?
Labels don't correspond with reality. Labels aren't reality, they are the AE of thoughts. The AE of reality never changes despite any thought labels.
Yes! :)

You did a great job in LOOKING at thought.
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
There is no order to thought. Thought refers to more thought. A memory, label, story. There is only ever AE. Anything that says otherwise is a thought-story.
Yes, thought refers to more thought!

However, memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system where an image or thought is retrieved.
What is the AE of memory?

So after doing the thought exercise can a ‘thinker’ of thought be found anywhere?
Is there someone/something that is thinking thoughts, or thought are just appearing and they are appearing to no one/no thing?



Let’s take a further look at the idea of control, choice and decision making.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:39 pm

Good evening Kay

I know there is no "I", but sometimes "I" must be used to make communication easier. Allow me just one paragraph of poetic indulgences and then I'll get back on track ;)
This afternoon and tonight I felt a great clarity, an almost intense presence with whatever I was doing. When people talk to me I give them every ounce of my attention because there is no "me" to not be attentive. It's beautiful. My head is clear and my eyes are large, I am free and confident and strong and fearless in a certain soft and warm way that I never thought possible. I am open and loving and here for everyone and best of all it is all effortless, just a natural way to be. I am the luckiest person alive, I am so thankful for every bit of suffering that brought me here, I am so thankful for that crazy guy I used to be that brought me to this inexpressible place. I am so thankful for beautiful people like yourself who appeared to guide me and be here with me. 

However,
memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system where an image or thought is retrieved.
What is the AE of memory?
You are right, in this case I was assuming the existence of memory by believing a thought-story. Thank you for pointing that out to me. "Memory" is in AE a thought. "Memory" is just a label. There is no brain or mind that stores information, only the AE of thought. 
So after doing the thought exercise can a ‘thinker’ of thought be found anywhere?  
Is there someone/something that is thinking thoughts, or thought are just appearing and they are appearing to no one/no thing?
I cannot find a thinker of thoughts anywhere. Wherever I look, I can only find more thoughts. Thoughts just appear, like colour or sound or sensation, and they appear to nothing and no one. Anything that says something is there for thoughts to appear to is just another thought. 
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? 
I don't know. I can't find anything. 
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
 

No. I can only find thought. 
What is it that is controlling the hand? 
I don't know. I can't find it. 
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? 
No it cannot. I can only find more thought that may say there's an "I", but that's just another thought. Thought is not a controlling entity, it's just an AE and nothing more. 
Can anything be found that makes the hand move? 
Nothing. 
How is the decision made?
I can't answer this. It's just sensation and colour and thought. There's no decision. 

With love

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:11 pm

Hi Ben,
This afternoon and tonight I felt a great clarity, an almost intense presence with whatever I was doing. When people talk to me I give them every ounce of my attention because there is no "me" to not be attentive. It's beautiful. My head is clear and my eyes are large, I am free and confident and strong and fearless in a certain soft and warm way that I never thought possible. I am open and loving and here for everyone and best of all it is all effortless, just a natural way to be. I am the luckiest person alive, I am so thankful for every bit of suffering that brought me here, I am so thankful for that crazy guy I used to be that brought me to this inexpressible place. I am so thankful for beautiful people like yourself who appeared to guide me and be here with me.
Thank you so very much for sharing this with me….it is just beautiful. I feel so honoured and blessed.
You are right, in this case I was assuming the existence of memory by believing a thought-story. Thank you for pointing that out to me. "Memory" is in AE a thought. "Memory" is just a label. There is no brain or mind that stores information, only the AE of thought.
Spot on! :)
I cannot find a thinker of thoughts anywhere. Wherever I look, I can only find more thoughts. Thoughts just appear, like colour or sound or sensation, and they appear to nothing and no one. Anything that says something is there for thoughts to appear to is just another thought.
Great clarity.

Here is an interesting exercise on the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

With much love,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:45 am

Good afternoon Kay
Here is an interesting exercise on the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No. All that is experienced is sensation. Anything that says anything about "what a body is" is a thought-story.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No, only sensation is experienced. Anything that says a sensation is "heavy" or "light" or "filled" or "empty" is a story.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No. There is only sensation and colour. "Shape" is a thought-story.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No boundary. Just sensation.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
There is no such division, there is only sensation.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
There is no inside or outside, anything that says there is is a thought story. There is only sensation and colour.
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
There is no outside, there is only AE, which is sensation, colour, sound and thought.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It's a thought-story which itself is the AE of thought, and it's referring to the AE of sensation and colour. The "body" is just a story.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The AE of the body is sensation, colour, sound and taste. There is no "body" as this is a thought label, there is only AE.
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:46 am

With love

Ben :)
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:05 am

Hi Ben,
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It's a thought-story which itself is the AE of thought, and it's referring to the AE of sensation and colour. The "body" is just a story.
Yes, the label ‘body’ actually refers to thought and not to a ‘body’.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The AE of the body is sensation, colour, sound and taste. There is no "body" as this is a thought label, there is only AE.
Yes, there is no actual experience of a ‘body’, what is, is the AE of sensation, colour, sound, thought, taste and smell.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

How fast is the present moment actually moving?

How long does the now last?

Where does it start and where does it end?

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

What is the past in actual experience?

There is also an exercise in ‘memory’, would you like to do that one as well Ben?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:28 am

Good evening Kay
But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?
There is no such experience. The only AE I see is of sensation, colour, sound and thought. Anything that says "time" or "movement of time" is just a thought story.
How fast is the present moment actually moving?
I see no "movement of time" or "present moment" in AE.
How long does the now last?
I can't measure any "now" in AE. I can only see sensation, colour, thought and sound.
Where does it start and where does it end?
There is no start or end to anything. Anything that says "start" or "end" is a thought story.
When does the now exactly become the 'past'?
The "now" and the "past" do not exist. They are only stories.

What is the past in actual experience?

The "past" in AE is a thought.
There is also an exercise in ‘memory’, would you like to do that one as well Ben?
Yes for sure, I'm happy to complete the exercise. Thank you Kay :)

With love

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:33 am

Hi Ben,

Nice looking with the 'time' questions.

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Don't look at what thought says...but what actually is.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:45 am

Good evening Kay
What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
Memory is a thought-story, which is the AE of thought.
What is the memory ‘made of’?
the AE of thought.
WHEN does the memory appear?
I'm unable to predict or control memory in any way, there is no-one there to predict or control it. I can't answer "when" a memory appears, only that it's the AE of thought.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
Any difference that would be associated would be another thought story. All thought is just the AE of thought.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
This can not be known. All that is knows is that thought exists as an AE.
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
The AE of thought.
WHEN does the future thought appear?
It can't be predicted or controlled. Thought just appears as an AE.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
There are no differences in thought, all thought is just the AE of thought. Any differences are thought-stories, which themselves are the AE of thought.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
This can not be known. All that can be known is the AE of thought, sensation, sound and colour.
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?
It's ALL thought. No differences exist. It's all the AE of thought. Anything that says there is a difference is a thought-story.

With love

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:52 am

Hi Ben,

It is clear that the separate self has been seen through and was some pages ago! :) The last few exercises weren't necessary but they were an opportunity to see if there was something that still needed clear seeing.

The following are the final questions. Can you provide some detail in your answers please.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Much love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:30 pm

Good evening Kay

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. There never was an there never will be. It can't be found anywhere, not in anyone or anything.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts when we are young, we are taught to perceive a separate self by people who all perceive a separate self. A world run by "selves" for "selves", but it's all an illusion. Corporate entities and people in power and people who we look up to who themselves perceive a "self", then manipulate and reinforce other "selves" so they can benefit their "selves". But it's not there! It never was!

It's a form of programming, where due to repetition and a clever "trick of the mind", we associate the true experience of reality, which is sensation, sound, thought and colour, with a psychological "story" about a separate "I" entity. Our parents, friends, siblings, teachers, media, everything we look up to when we are young, all constantly reiterate and reinforce to us that there is a "me" inside that makes decisions and is separate.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

For me when I first saw it it was really difficult. I had tonnes of anxiety, some panic attacks, cold and hot flushes, couldn't eat or sleep, it really just affected the body in some hard and scary ways. I'm not sure why, all I know is that I had a very unhappy and "heavy" self, that I was really attached to. When I saw it and the illusion was seen through, the body was "released" from this extraordinary burden, and was trying to figure out how to regulate itself with a new way of being.

But all the negative side effects are gone now, I am calm, calmer than I've ever been. Peace is everywhere and everything. Love, connection, presence, care, space, it's all easy and effortless. A truly indescribable gift when the "self" has been seen through. It's just the natural state of being a human being.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was really way at the start, I just had this huge, powerful intent behind me, thinking "why are all these people waking up and I've been working on this for years and I"m getting no where!" And I just kept thinking and thinking and trying to see. Suddenly, I was lying down, I saw clearly that my "unhappy childhood" was just a story that I used to enhance this illusions of self. Then that was it, it was gone and it was gone forever. The next week was very hard, one of the hardest I've been through, but more worth it than anything when it finally calmed down to how things are now.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control. They are all mental concepts. They are all used for the same thing, used to reinforce this illusiory sense of self that everyone has. There is no inside person or self that makes decisions, has intention, free will, choice or control of anything.

Nothing makes things happen, things just are. Anything that says something makes something happen is just a story. I am responsible for nothing because there is no "I" or "me". "I am" reality, I am a seamless and non-separate part of what actually is. No one drives my car, no one types on my computer. I am just the actual experience of reality, sensation and colour.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you for guiding me through the most incredible gift anyone could receive, I am eternally grateful for all you've done and for this website. I would love to learn about what's required to become a guide if that something that's possible. I owe you one Kay! :P

With love and gratitude

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:36 pm

Hi Ben,

Just a couple of questions for the purpose of clarity.
It starts when we are young, we are taught to perceive a separate self by people who all perceive a separate self. A world run by "selves" for "selves", but it's all an illusion. Corporate entities and people in power and people who we look up to who themselves perceive a "self", then manipulate and reinforce other "selves" so they can benefit their "selves". But it's not there! It never was!
So it is clear that the above is just a story?
Since there is no ‘self’, are there ‘others’?
What is the AE of ‘others’?

When I saw it and the illusion was seen through, the body was "released" from this extraordinary burden, and was trying to figure out how to regulate itself with a new way of being.
How is it known that there is a body that was “trying to figure out how to regulate itself”?
What is the AE of ‘body’?

It's just the natural state of being a human being.
What exactly is it that is a ‘human being’?
What is the AE of “human being”?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:37 pm

Good morning Kay
So it is clear that the above is just a story?
Yes of course.
Since there is no ‘self’, are there ‘others’?
What is the AE of ‘others’?
There are no other, just colour, sound, sensation. The AE of the concept of "others" is just thought.


How is it known that there is a body that was “trying to figure out how to regulate itself”?
What is the AE of ‘body’?

It isn't. There is only sensation, colour, sound.

What exactly is it that is a ‘human being’?
What is the AE of “human being”?

It's just a thought story. The AE of a human being is sensation, colour and sound.

With love

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:42 pm

Good morning Ben :)

Thank you for responding so quickly. I am now going to ask other guides to check out your thread to make sure I haven't missed anything. They may or may not have further questions for you. I will get back to you within the next day or two.

Much love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Ben's Thread

Postby Ben2 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:55 pm

No problems Kay, thank you for all your time and patience.

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."


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