Denis, please post here

[Moonlight]

Thing is, Dennis, its not about thinking the self to be an illusion. Do you say I'm thinking of Santa or Batman as an illusion? You either believe in it or not, either SEE that's it's an illusion or you don't.

The sense of self is not you. There is no you. Period. The body, mind, thoughts, sensations all exist. But the thoughts and sensations are not happening TO anyone. Stop thinking about it, and look at direct experiencing. What is happening without ALL the stories. drop them all and tell me what's left.

[Denis]

Excellent Moonlight. I read your posts first thing in the mornings, before meditating.

Sorry for all the stories the past two days. I was wondering where that was going. So I looked during meditation and am looking now. Without the body, mind, thoughts, sensations and stories, there is nothing left but the 'soul' or 'self' or 'santa' or whatever label we use. I see nothing left. I would sense nothing without the body and mind; thoughts and sensations would cease.

I think I have come full circle, back to seeing the 'I' is nothing more than mind/body, but I see it more clearly. Without them 'I' do not exist. The only things left are the results of my thoughts and actions. That is my answer to Question 4): what I am referring to when I use the word 'I'

No, the 'soul' does not exist. No matter how much looking happens, we won't see it. I don't see, hear, feel, smell, taste, or think it exists anymore than does a unicorn.

Thanks, Dennis

[Moonlight]

Dennis, sorry, I got a little confused with your last post, didn't understand it properly.

When I say to drop the stories, how are you dropping the sensations, the experiencing? That's almost impossible. Drop the 'mind stuff', the stories in the head ABOUT experience, and just focus on what's left. What do you find?

So it (soul, self) doesn't exist any more than a unicorn?

there is nothing left but the 'soul' or 'self' or 'santa' or whatever label we use. I see nothing left. I would sense nothing without the body and mind; thoughts and sensations would cease.

Then I got confused with this. Please write more.

[Denis]

Oh, sorry for the amateur writing. It's probably inconsistent. I'll reword it.

Without body and mind, there can be neither sensation nor thought as well as no concept of the 'self'. Based on the looking I have done, it takes a body and mind to cognize the thoughts as well as imagine a 'self'. The only way to identify 'me' is as a body with its mind. Nothing more.

I am not dropping the thoughts and sensations. I cannot do that as long as I have a body and mind. It may be learned but I cannot recall any thoughts or sensations before there was a body called denis. It follows that body and mind are required for thoughts and sensations. No?

I am not contending that there is a 'self' separate from body and mind. Just that 'body/mind' is the only way to define a 'self' if we 'look'. Any other definition is just a mental construct, imaginary.

Does that make sense?

thanks a bunch, dennis

[Moonlight]

Thank you, Dennis, for taking the time to explain again. :)

Tell me, is the body/mind 'yours'? Or just 'is', not belonging to anyone? I understand you're saying that the 'me' only comes about because of the mind labeling it. Is that right? What is left when the mind isn't labeling life as happening to you, an experiencer?

[Denis]

No, the body/mind is not anybody's. It just is and that is the only way 'I' can be defined, if it needs to be defined.

The word 'I' just implies body/mind, nothing more. Every other conceptualization of 'i' is just a mental construct or as you say a label.

I agree, an event happens and the mind experiences the event. If there is an experiencer, it is the mind/body, not a 'soul', 'self' or other such label. I have never found one. Not sure this mind can 'see' that there is not one. How can one 'see' what is not? For that matter, one cannot see a black hole, but evidence shows it exists. However, I admit it is not quite the same; there is no concrete evidence 'self' exists. I am using 'I' in as a convention, a short form for this mind.

Do I need to keep looking for a self?

Thanks for your skillful guidance,
dennis

[Moonlight]

Hmm. How about doing a couple of exercises at this point.

Sit comfortably, and close your eyes. Now focus on the sound of your own breath. Listen to it for a few moments, without creating stories in the head about it, just Listening. Now, focus your attention to a sound 'outside' the body. Any sound, maybe a bird singing, someone talking, it doesn't matter. Just listening. Now tell me, is there any sort of difference in the quality of the sound? Is there any difference in the inside and outside sounds, except for the mind saying, oh this is my body breathing, or oh that sound is such and such, so far away, etc. Look at the QUALITY, the feel.

Second one. Still sitting, close your eyes again. Dropping stories about who you are, you height, weight, position in the chairm just focus on the experience. Now, see if you can find any boundaries between 'your' body snd the 'outside'. What do you feel? The sensations of sitting on the chair, any other senstion you might feel, but do you feel any boundary between the inside and outside?

Now, Dennis, tell me. Is the body/mind the experiencer, or is it also part of the experience happening? Are sensations happening through the body, or is it really the experiencER, the "I"? Look into this.

[Denis]

The outside sounds are louder. I can barely hear my breathing. Until now I had not noticed they were so loud. The breath of course is regular and seems smooth; heart beat the same but more internal, a pulse in the head or ears. The outside sounds are mostly mechanical; the inside are biological and smoother. Those are the differences I can identify. How are we defining "quality?" Preference is for the biological sounds. If I judge, I'd call the outside sounds 'noise.'

I'll try the second exercise now and address that in the next post.

[Denis]

I typed this earlier but I closed my computer too soon after hitting the submit button :-( Will rewrite it.

I looked for the boundaries between my body and the outside during this afternoon's meditation. The boundaries dissolved. Cliche but all was one, non-dual. Another blissful experience.

I know; that's not our goal! Not all my meditations are that pleasant but I always feel less like a separate self during the mediation than during activity. Activity today was driving across Tucson in impatient traffic. Why do I feel disconnected then? Definite feeling of 'self' when flipped off. Feeling quickly subsides but there is a moment of "what did 'I' do? He is being an ass...."

Talk to you tomorrow. thanks for the help,
denis

[Moonlight]

Thanks Dennis.

By quality of the sound, I meant to see if there's a difference in the place where there's awareness of the sound. Don't the sounds come and go in the very same place? Check it out.

After the exercises, please answer the questions from experience.

Thank you!

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

big day teaching 8th grade science today; head is still ringing so this will be brief.

Yes, the external sounds come into awareness the same place as the internal ones. The awareness is in the same location. I can't say any more than that about the sounds. Sounds just come into and go out of awareness.

Will look and write more tomorrow about the sounds and the boundaries.

thanks for helping,
dennis

[Moonlight]

So you're teaching again. Wow! And real life is a great opportunity to see where the 'you' pops up, and how. Easy to be a no self when nothing is happening :)

NOw, after doing the exercises, I'd like to ask you again, is the body/mind the experiencer, or is it part of the experiences happening, just like everything else happening?

[Denis]

Yes, teaching young kids takes skill that I am only beginning to learn and appreciate. You are right; something has to happen to test oneself.

So, to answer your question about experiences/experiencer, I have an answer the kids would not like: both! Sometimes the experiencer is just the experience. My description would be 'it is like Saturn in the midst of its rings.' The planet fades into the rings and becomes part of the experience (rings). No separation.

Other times when I look, I find an awareness of being aware and of an experiencer in a body separated by skin from the outer world. Separated as an experiencer.

With eyes closed it can change from one perspective to the other. Almost like it is due to the suggestion that it is one or the other. Can it be 'both?'

thanks, denis

[Moonlight]

Other times when I look, I find an awareness of being aware and of an experiencer in a body separated by skin from the outer world. Separated as an experiencer.

Look again, Dennis, and without getting into any stories. Look into experiencing, and check if there really is an experiencer, or is it the mind doing it's job again, of labeling and owning.

The experiment you did with the sounds and boundaries. You cannot find any, right? Now try it with smell. As Ingen says, smell a rose or smell dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower or whatever? Or is there only the experience of smell?

Can one ever really find a something that is experiencing? Try it with any experience. Are the experiences happening as and through the body/mind, or TO them?

"The experiencer is just the experience". Is that always the case, or sometimes?

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

So far, the experiencer is just the experience sometimes. Had a full day today so have not looked at other senses. I'll do the smell experiment tomorrow and let you know. Can't wait to try but am nodding off now.

Have a good day,
dennis