The Gate

Good work, Steve.
Also remember to watch for that clear choice point.
I often think of the mind as a cpu, coalescing data to something that makes sense.
Was it the cpu or the data reponsible for the outcome?
Keep looking,
Kevin

Kevin,

I often think of the mind as a cpu, coalescing data to something that makes sense.
Was it the cpu or the data reponsible for the outcome?

Let's use your words as a definition of mind/cpu: that which coalesces data into something that makes sense. Here are today's exercises:

I walked on big rocks. To do this, mind has to coalesce shapes, textures, angles, assessments of weights and slipperiness into something that makes sense and can be combined with lessons learned long ago about how to move. It can do this mostly without thoughts. At one point I had to stop and study two paths carefully with thoughts being produced.

I put a poker chips of four colours into a container one at a time. Each decision was effortless to make and was mostly unconscious. I could see rules being applied: Lots of the same colour - let's remove it and keep the colours varied. This one pokes out and makes things look untidy. This one stops me seeing what's underneath.

I also just generally watched myself today to find out how decisions were made. There always seemed to be rules involved: "I want to look at what's around me and that looks like a nice tree." "This is a quiet place to sit." "If I take food now I won't hold anyone up."

So it's all rules applied to data, meaning that the data is responsible. The rules are based on some current goal and cause things to be retrieved from memory. That's all data.

So, yeah, CPU (mind) does the work but data is completely responsible for the outcome as far as I can see. I keep saying free will is possible, but when I look, I can't see it anywhere.

I still don't get the exact relationship between thoughts and decisions. The poker chip exercise made it clear that at least most of the time, the mind's logic makes the decisions and some subset of it becomes visible as thoughts. It seems hard to establish whether thoughts can feed back into mind logic (and affect decisions) or whether they're a one-way channel from mind logic to awareness.

If there is free will over thoughts, and thoughts can affect decisions, then there is free will. But I can't see any will or control over thoughts. All I can see is thoughts claiming that there is control over thoughts. I need to look at this more.

I am on holiday so I have lots of time - and this investigation is a nice way to spend it. Thanks again.


Steve

Kevin,

I forgot to mention the search for the choice point: Sometimes I can narrow it down to a short interval, but I can't see anything in that interval yet.


Steve

Dinner guests, I'll get back to you on this.

Kevin,

No worries. Hope you had an enjoyable time.

I don't have much I can say today. I've been looking more at the whole picture: what sort of "self" do I think is present? I'm a little confused about where I am at with this. I am fairly sure the belief in self is slowly falling away as I lose interest in it and replace it with an interest in what's happening around me. I am enjoying the process. I have specific looking tasks to carry on with tomorrow.


Steve

Hi Steve,

In think we're down to the finer details here and run the risk of overthinking this.

I want to run these questions by you again and see how they flush out.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Best,
Kevin

Kevin,

I much happier with the the free will issue. These questions are a good thing to ask, I think.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?
Sitting still with eyes closed there is awareness of sounds, thoughts (pictures and words with emotions attached), body sensations (suggesting a thought, "body"), a feeling of contentment with a mix of vague positive and negative emotions underneath it, a slight tinnitus (a high pitched sound - not sure if it's from the ears), a sense of space that has a mental quality. Looking deeper beyond these categories, I can't see anything - just emptiness.

Then the body gets itchy and it scratches, and this strengthens a feeling of "me doing it" but that feels a bit empty now, because I'm seeing it as an ensemble of sensations implying a concept. In spite of the thoughts suggesting it, I didn't decide to scratch. The scratch was a natural response to an itch.

When doing things, I have to remind myself to look at what is happening literally or I can be carried away by the "I" idea. Even more so when talking to people. This morning I noticed their belief in "I" and it can be infectious. Some time alone each day seems important so I can keep my mind focused on observations.

What experiences?
I think experience is just awareness of "events" (really sensations) plus thoughts, feelings and judgements. So, please see my other answers.

What thinks?
There are thoughts and awareness of thoughts. There are discernible patterns in their content but their source is mysterious.

What does?
As far as I can tell from observation, the body/mind does according to input and rules, and there is awareness of it. For example, these words are being typed by a body/mind in response to questions, a desire to answer them (which resides in memory) and information gathered from observation.

What is aware?
I don't have a clue.


Steve

Kevin,

today I am working hard at watching everything that happens and sorting it into thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc, and looking for signs of an 'I' entity. To really understand what I'm seeing I need to look.

I'm right in the moment and very happy. This is easy to achieve because I'm on holiday but I was pretty happy last week when I was at work. I'm fairly sure the penny hasn't dropped yet, but I think it might when things really sink in.


Thanks - Steve.

Kevin,

It is possible that I may have passed the point of no return. It's very hard to be sure, because I have no precedent to judge it by.

The thing is, it's not very dramatic, but I'm perfectly happy with that. I've mostly assimilated the results of your directing, though I will need to keep going with it a bit more. Some of it is still quite new, such getting a better (but hardly perfect) grasp that the body/mind works by itself and there's no "I" in control of it.

Some background: Years ago I decided that since my body was going to die anyway, that there was nothing to fear. Years ago I completely stopped caring what anyone thought of me. Years ago I decided that there was no point in worrying about things I had no control over, including everything in the past. I was never into constructing any sort of persona. About a year ago I decided I didn't really care what I believed. For the last year I've been pretty relaxed, and I have achieved extremes of chilled-outness in the last few weeks.

Now you've helped me realize I can't see any real "I". And I'm trying to make sure I have got this by looking for the "I". The problem is starting to be that I am not even sure what this "I" is that I'm supposed to be looking for. I wasn't expecting that much of a shock, but I wasn't quite expecting it to be so undramatic as this.

When I take a walk, there's a sense that the body is doing its thing by itself. But in a way things feel exactly the same: It feels like "I am walking" - but it's just a feeling. There could be a risk that I'll forget and get wrapped up in "I" stories. But I don't seem to be at all worried about that possibility.

Or have I got this completely wrong? Am I so lost in the delusion of "I" that I have fooled myself into thinking I have achieved something? Is my mind tricking me into complacency? This is certainly possible! I am totally unconcerned about this today. But will I be in the pits of despair tomorrow? If so, I will worry about it tomorrow. The strongest suggestion that this might be for real seems to be my emotional state, which is profoundly accepting and peaceful.

Hopefully things will get clearer.


Steve

Hi Steve,

I think you're right.
This thing is seldom extremely dramatic, and it seems you didn't need much of a push.
That said, I'd like my colleagues to review this thread to make sure there aren't any wrinkles in the proverbial shirt.

I'd like to run these summary questions by you for their review.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Nice work,

Kevin

Kevin,

I wrote this post while you were writings yours. I'll give your questions some time and respond later.

I should write how I feel this morning for the record. I think it's fair to say there's been a subtle shift. Some aspects of it are difficult to translate into thoughts. The exercises you had me do have clarified the relationship between thoughts, the body, and awareness. This seems to have provided a certain foundation. I don't feel identified with the mind/body, or with anything else. There's a distance there. Almost as if awareness is over and above everything. Yet I feel basically "normal". The mind can slide back into a feeling of "I" but belief in it is lacking, so it tends to evaporate on reflection.

Everything looks beautiful and there's a peaceful feeling. I could revert back to old ways tomorrow but I don't feel concerned about that possibility.


Steve

Hi again, Kevin,

Well, that was a great morning, but as I got caught up in the day's events I lost sight of it and went into a habitual way of thinking (I understand this process to be taking place in the mind although it deals with things beyond the mind). I haven't had time to get contemplative since. I don't think I'm quite ready to answer the Final Questions yet as I can't categorically say I have shed all "I" beliefs. Some perseverance is needed.

Some more observations from this morning - this is from memory so will be inaccurate:

• I remember feeling that something subtle was seen that didn't make sense in the conventional way.
• It was as if reality was a puzzle that had been taken apart and put back together in different way, so that it looked almost but not quite the same.

If you don't have specific suggestions, I'll generally keep looking and go over the same exercises.


Steve

Hi Steve,
Those two observations seem spot on to me.
As to your concerns about "I" beliefs, can you be more specific?

And as to any questions being "final," there's no way I can know that.
My colleagues might have further questions.
But before you begin answering those, let's address this "I" thought.

Best
Kevin

Kevin,

The 'I' thought/belief:

In the morning all throughout this experience I felt the body and those sensations suggested a feeling "I am doing this" but thoughts were seeing it as only a sensation. They were interpreting the experience as not identified with body or mind. They viewed it as awareness of body/mind. Later in the day, thoughts were believing the suggestions and interpreting experience as identified with thoughts mainly and it was more that "I was tired and upset that I had lost that feeling."

Right now it feels great but thoughts haven't made any decision about identification yet. That's probably a good thing. :)


Steve

Hi Steve,

Okay, we're getting down to something here.

In the morning all throughout this experience I felt the body and those sensations suggested a feeling "I am doing this" but thoughts were seeing it as only a sensation.

From my experience, the past and future are both fiction.
The only nonfiction (and only sometimes) occurs right here in this very moment. I always tie myself in knots trying to figure our reasoning of the past or probabilities of the future.
Let's keep it here and now.
And only as it is felt in experience.
You good with that?

They (thoughts) were interpreting the experience as not identified with body or mind. They viewed it as awareness of body/mind.

You speak of these thoughts as though they are separate entities with their own volition.
Is this true?
Can you elaborate?

Later in the day, thoughts were believing the suggestions and interpreting experience as identified with thoughts mainly and it was more that "I was tired and upset that I had lost that feeling."

I don't blame you. I'm exhausted trying to keep up with you ;)

Right now it feels great

Right now is all there is.
Anytime else is the land of mental gymnastics.

but thoughts haven't made any decision about identification yet. That's probably a good thing.

Again, thoughts are being spoken of like they're the senate, the chamber of sober second thought.
How is it that something so ethereal has so much substance for you?

Keep up the digging, great work.

Kevin