Staying awake

[Cyberogue]

Cool!

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

how are you doing? I am pulling the last two posts together, beginning with my last one.

Until then why not experiment with different approaches to your day? As you experiment,take notice whether you are thinking and deciding what to do next or whether the thoughts just jump in. Can you choose which feelings arise?

What did you discover during this experiment?


Turning to your last longer post.

The idea of the thoughts not wanting to do me any harm is novel and strange. And i had to really think about that. If you asked me if my thoughts wanted to do me harm i would say no, but then I realise that they are the source of how i do myself harm. It really made me see the danger of "I", and getting caught up in the "I". My thoughts at some point, however they came about, were trying to help me be happy, negotiate the world better or easier, and somehow they get detached from that and just become "reality". And that reality is the stuff that is causing me the pain. Which is a false reality.

Right on.

Did the thoughts with their stories turn into "You"?

Do you get up and feel energised and excited about your day? Like a 5 year old does, full of wonder and possiblity? I want to go after these goals but with a sense of joy, and not with the whip of guilt cracking at me. Do you think thats possible? Otherwise I would like to let go of the "wants" and honestly believe that I am enough, and don't need to achieve an academy award to be of value.

Sweet question ;-). I am right in that behind this question there is another one: "Will an ideal self emerge out of this process that doesn't cause any guilt any longer"? - I won't answer this question right now as I am pretty sure you already know the answer.

What is the answer?


Let's have a look at this whip of guilt.

Sit down comfortably . Think of a situation that causes the guilt to arise. Again feel directly which sensations arise. Where are they and how do they exactly feel? Do they move? Do they carry the label "guilt" when arising? Is there any I or me in them? Or do they just happen?



With much love,
Christiane

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

Until then why not experiment with different approaches to your day? As you experiment,take notice whether you are thinking and deciding what to do next or whether the thoughts just jump in. Can you choose which feelings arise?


What did you discover during this experiment?

Hope your travels were good! As for the questions, starting above. The thoughts seem to just jump in. Little control or actually no control over the initial thought - control is attempted after to see how to perhaps shape or follow it, but mostly stuff just pops in and out. Thoughts are linked to feelings so also very little control over the feeling part, but once I have a feeling i see that I do try and go to other thoughts in an attempt to control one feeling by triggering others. So from anxiety about X, will then think about something nice, or centring myself to allow for new thought with different emotion attached. Its very haphazard.

Did the thoughts with their stories turn into "You"?

Yes. The thoughts and the stories are 100% the "me" in my head. No question.

"Will an ideal self emerge out of this process that doesn't cause any guilt any longer"? - I won't answer this question right now as I am pretty sure you already know the answer.

What is the answer?

LOl! Funny how you say I might know, and i assume "I am going to get this wrong!" Well, no the ideal self is just another story. BUT, we do need concepts to at least point towards the thing that we mean. So I would say that the conscious being that is "I", would not be affected by the guilt that will probably still arise. And in a way, that has the same practical result as the "ideal self". Or is that not true?

Sit down comfortably . Think of a situation that causes the guilt to arise. Again feel directly which sensations arise. Where are they and how do they exactly feel? Do they move? Do they carry the label "guilt" when arising? Is there any I or me in them? Or do they just happen?

The first feeling is a physical sensation, it feels like a small adrenalin spike that causes anxiety and makes me feel mildly panicked. That triggers the thought, why do I feel this? which triggers the memory of what I haven't achieved - almost like nostalgia for the lack of stuff i dont have. The lack of awards, money, success.... The original thing is labelled guilt after the fact, it starts as tummy fluttering naseua. There is all "I" and "Me" in them, they are all about that. Hmmm, they don't just happen - they need a trigger event really, or trigger thought. But it can be anything...

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

Thank you for you good wishes :-).

Keep going. I know it isn’t easy and I appreciate your persistence. You are doing fine.

Today we will zoom in on direct experience. I will ask several questions. Please quote and answer them individually. There is no hurry. If you can’t finish them today, just send me the first answers and continue tomorrow.

Answer the questions from your immediate direct experience. Direct experience works best when you just relax and look at what you can perceive. It’s not rocket science.

Please have a little refresher on direct experience and read this, even if you have done so before.

http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/.

Finished? If you are not sure in which way the term "thought" is used, here is another explanation:

Thoughts come in two ways.
1. As words with letters. You could write them down. You can also sometimes hear the words being spoken.
2. As Images

The first feeling is a physical sensation, it feels like a small adrenalin spike that causes anxiety and makes me feel mildly panicked.

"Adrenalin spike" can't be felt directly, it is an image = thought.
"Anxiety" is the label for a physical sensation. A word = thought. The same is true for "mildly panicked".

Is this clear? If not, please feel free to ask, as it is very important to be precise here.

BUT, we do need concepts to at least point towards the thing that we mean

Yes, when talking to each other we use concepts, hoping the concept has the very same meaning for the other person as for us. We are doing it here as well.

That's why we need to make sure we both mean the same and I am asking you to be very precise with your language, using the terms that have the same meaning for both of us. Think of it as the technical jargon in this research field.

Yes. The thoughts and the stories are 100% the "me" in my head. No question.

Very clear seeing indeed!

What does this say about the nature of this “me”,what are “you” made of? LOOK at your thoughts and stories directly.
And are there several “me’s”, in the head and somewhere else? Scan your whole body again. LOOK!

Well, no the ideal self is just another story.

Right :-).

What about the normal and the failure-self? Are they something else but stories? LOOK!
And what is the assumption “I am going to get this wrong”? Again LOOK!



Think again of a situation where guilt arises. What are you actually experiencing? LOOK!
What is the physical sensation in your actual experience, where is it and what is the label for it? Do you find an I in any of it? Be very precise with the technical jargon.

With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

I read the article about direct experience and understand that I need to be very precise about what i am sensing and trying to get rid of the references that are circular by always being about or from the "I".

So here goes for the questions.

What does this say about the nature of this “me”,what are “you” made of? LOOK at your thoughts and stories directly.
And are there several “me’s”, in the head and somewhere else? Scan your whole body again. LOOK!

The nature of the "me" is made up of thoughts. The "thoughts" seem to be mainly memories. I can't even track a moment in the now, that creates a new this is "me" thought. I have an experience and then i attach from memory a label that triggers around that. So i feel this light nausea, i call it anxiety, and then i say I am feeling anxious. When looking for why I have the feeling in my stomach I find a thought about failure or lack of success that is not even fully formed its like an emotional memory, fuzzy and half formed - like it doesnt come clearly to me, just emphasises that this is what anxiety feels like.
Lets take something more concrete. I think about being gay. I can then say, well I have had sex with lots of men, that means I am gay. The word gay comes with a load of other thoughts and judgements that I have. If i look at the story, "I am gay", then I find memories of when i saw men and liked that, and it leads me further and further back till i am small and try and remember the first memories of that. At that point i can also remember that it didnt have a label then, it was just a fluttery feeling like excitement in the pit of my stomach, and later when i learnt the word, I then slipped the experiences under this banner of a label. It doesn't make the experience less true, and it does make me feel like other people have the same experience so I say that this is what i am. The label made me feel I understood myself, and therefore it felt - and still feels - right and true.

Are there several mes? Yes, I would say my body is almost a different me from my mind, and from my feelings. They are different systems and the labelling system although its supposed to cover the whole, actually often labels the bits and pieces in a rote way, but doesnt look at the difference. My emotions often feel good, and circumstances havent changed so I look for a reason to feel anxious, because i know that anxiety is appropriate for someone without a job. The reverse is also true - can look to stop anxiety because something nice is happening to my body, but the systems feel interconnected but not the same. So in a way, not the same "I", that i refer to.

What about the normal and the failure-self? Are they something else but stories? LOOK!
And what is the assumption “I am going to get this wrong”? Again LOOK

The normal and failure self feel like emotional memories. They feel like old "truths" that happened and became the thought that i reference when certain events happen. Does that make them something other than stories? Well, it makes them old stories. It makes them probably less relevant-for-today stories.
There seems to be an interior place that I explain as me, it is more a feeling than specific thoughts, when i think about me, i feel it first. I feel that there is a sense of being inside myself, and it has an emotional content, when i try and look at the emotion, the emotion is immediately justified by a thought. Like, you feel "anxious" (the fluttery stomach feeling, tightness across the chest), and then to understand why i get a number of thoughts pop in to my head and i select a few that i assume are true for the feeling to happen. "I have no work", "other people have lots of money and success". These thoughts make the feeling feel justified and real, and therefore I jump to trying to manage/ deal with the feelings by doing something - work, gym, going to sleep. The actions are powered by the thoughts.

Think again of a situation where guilt arises. What are you actually experiencing? LOOK!
What is the physical sensation in your actual experience, where is it and what is the label for it? Do you find an I in any of it? Be very precise with the technical jargon.

What i call guilt happens when I am doing nothing, and think of what I should be doing to change the thought, "I am a failure". Doing nothing makes my body react by getting tummy butterflies, tight chest, and almost a humming feeling in my head. The thoughts make the feeling, or the feeling can be there, and then the thought comes that "if you just worked harder you would not feel bad, but be successful". I think either one can trigger the other. I assume that the reason i dont have the feeling after being very busy all day is that I have then addressed the thought by trying to make a new thought - "I will hard enough to change this". This new thought can replace the other ones for a short time. Right now I swop from thinking "I am a failure", to "i am working". I have the tummy feeling practically all time - so each time I stop thinking of the "failure" thought, feeling the tummy feeling makes me trigger the "i am anxious" thought.

C

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

there are lots and lots of stories in your last post.
It's only very rarely possible to see direct experience.

Please answer to my post again. DON'T answer from Memory.

Take the question and then really look inside. And then answer step by step:

There is x sensation in x part of the body. The Label x gets attached to it. These thoughts are coming. They are then causing this feeling. The I is or isn't there. If you find it, what does the I look like or consist of.

Be slow. Be thorough. No need to rush.

Just take one question at a time.

I like that you went to being gay with your question. Take it again. Stay in the present Moment while exploring.


With love,
Ghata

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

please stay in contact.

With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

Sorry. Horrible week.

Where to start? I got your response. I found myself so frustrated and angry with the "just LOOK" idea because I feel like a child who is not getting or giving the proper response and so getting whacked on the wrists for it. I spent some hours, and much of the next day attempting to look without forcing. I will get to how that played out, but I simply was sulking yesterday because I feel angry at life in general, at this process in particular and with what's happening right now.

My dad went into ICU, my unemployment hit a new low, and to get the "just LOOK" from this process was like a final straw. I just haven't the energy to cope with everything at once.

I dreamt about "just looking". I tried the exercise again. This is what I can report back. When i start to try and process the concept of looking I firstly feel blank. I don't know how else to say this wihtout using "I". There is just no sense of emotion, then i notice normally what i am seeing, it registers that this becomes an object then (sometimes it goes form to the labelled object depending). I then notice a thought (how else do i express this??) which makes a feeling/ response in my stomach/ chest happen. When i try it again, i notice that the feeling is sometimes present - the nausea in my tummy - which makes me think, "why am i stressed", so i get the assumption that the feeling in my body and the idea of what it means are so linked that i don't see them separately. I notice the use of the I in the sentence here, and I don't think it as direct as that in the experience, but again, not sure what to say. the conscious part of me noticed it? I know the words are important so would like guidance as to how to express the concepts.

This feels exaclty like what i have posted before and deleted a few times now. But in order to respond there it is. Not sure if you have other ways of pointing me towards it.

Also, as a last question. What does the "with love" mean to you that you sign with. I ask because part of me intensely distrusts this broad, and often for me, all to easy label that is given and which (IN MY HEAD i know) implies that you have some feel-good love feeling for me. Is that it? your showing up on a day by day basis is an act of love in the sense of NA as I understand it. But something in me rebels against the use of the word, and I wanted to just say it.

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

thank you for sharing your feelings so freely. It can be very frustrating and it's good you're back.

It helps to answer every day and keep the ball rolling, even if you answer shortly.

Just looking is very simple. It is like looking for your keys in your pocket. You just grab into your pockets and immediately know whether they are there or not because your fingers will feel them. Our thoughts make it incredibly complicated.

Experiencing directly is seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting and being aware of thought (s).

I then notice a thought (how else do i express this??) which makes a feeling/ response in my stomach/ chest happen. When i try it again, i notice that the feeling is sometimes present - the nausea in my tummy - which makes me think, "why am i stressed", so i get the assumption that the feeling in my body and the idea of what it means are so linked that i don't see them separately.

This is very good direct looking. There was a thought that triggered a sensation in your body. The sensation in the body then gets labelled "the nausea in the tummy". All words are thoughts. A thought gave the label according to what was experienced in the past. Somebody taught you the name for this feeling and part of the body.

The sensations again triggersthe thought "why am I stressed".

For now I would suggest to just use "there is" or "there was" as it is very clear then that it is a direct experience.

Our language reinforces the feeling of an "I" very strongly as you can see.

"I found myself so frustrated and angry with the "just LOOK" idea because I feel like a child who is not getting or giving the proper response and so getting whacked on the wrists for it.

Read the text one more time, that got you so frustrated. Allow yourself to feel the sensations in your body. Does it have a name? Do you find an I in it? Describe the sensation in detail. Where is it? Is it tingling, pain, pressure, cold, warmth...?

Be aware of thoughts labelling them. Does the sensation trigger other thought(s)? Do these thoughts trigger new sensations?

When i try it again, i notice that the feeling is sometimes present - the nausea in my tummy - which makes me think, "why am i stressed", so i get the assumption that the feeling in my body and the idea of what it means are so linked that i don't see them separately.

With love - meant in the full meaning of the word,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

lost my first response. Will re send again

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

I appreciate you sending a short note.


With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

hi Ghata,

Read the text one more time, that got you so frustrated. Allow yourself to feel the sensations in your body. Does it have a name? Do you find an I in it? Describe the sensation in detail. Where is it? Is it tingling, pain, pressure, cold, warmth...?

Be aware of thoughts labelling them. Does the sensation trigger other thought(s)? Do these thoughts trigger new sensations?

I re-read the part that made me frustrated. There is the text that i read. There is my thought processing the words. Then there is a thought that judges the person and content of the words, and that registers as a feeling down my chest/ inside and low in my throat. There is a feeling like something is sitting there. I register this is anger and annoyance at what my thought has labelled the smug an know-it-all tone of the words. This thought increases the feeling, and there is a rapid increase in both the emotions and the thoughts. They both feed this and it gets bigger and stronger. From these thoughts jump others about why people treat me badly, and a deep anger at how unfair and misunderstanding the world is.

There is a feeling to act on this. To make it go away by either breaking the computer, or creating a scene. Making someone notice me.

After gym i walked back and just looked. I find that i watch the world, i would say there is a sense of detachment, and cold, light, a person are noticed and then moved onto the next sensory input that grabs my attention. There is a sense of disconnection rather than the peace i was/am hoping for. It lacks both thoughts and doesnt trigger emotions, until a thought intrudes about career - then the visual disappears and all i notice are my thoughts and feelings, quickly gaining momentum.

B

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

I re-read the part that made me frustrated. There is the text that i read. There is my thought processing the words. Then there is a thought that judges the person and content of the words, and that registers as a feeling down my chest/ inside and low in my throat. There is a feeling like something is sitting there. I register this is anger and annoyance at what my thought has labelled the smug an know-it-all tone of the words. This thought increases the feeling, and there is a rapid increase in both the emotions and the thoughts. They both feed this and it gets bigger and stronger. From these thoughts jump others about why people treat me badly, and a deep anger at how unfair and misunderstanding the world is. There is a feeling to act on this. To make it go away by either breaking the computer, or creating a scene. Making someone notice me.

What you describe is a chain of happenings:

Reading the answer ->processing, judging -> thoughts arising and creating feelings -> feelings creating new thoughts, the story about a you being a victim.

How did the criteria for judging and creating the story come about? Did you decide to use them, or are they created by conditions and circumstances? Do you have a choice of NOT reacting this way?

After gym i walked back and just looked. I find that i watch the world, i would say there is a sense of detachment, and cold, light, a person are noticed and then moved onto the next sensory input that grabs my attention.

There is also the possibility to look at what happens around you out of curiosity - what is really happening? Is there a border between you the so-called seer) and the seen? Is an activity happening that could be called „seeing“?

There is a sense of disconnection rather than the peace i was/am hoping for.

The outcome of this inquiry is not predictable. Life might get better, or not. Or it might not be necessary to improve life. One thing is sure though: As long as you cling to a certain outcome (a better life for *you*) the illusion of you will not reveal itself.

It lacks both thoughts and doesnt trigger emotions, until a thought intrudes about career - then the visual disappears and all i notice are my thoughts and feelings, quickly gaining momentum.

Would you be able to tell that this thought will arise? Can you stop it before it arises?

With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

How did the criteria for judging and creating the story come about? Did you decide to use them, or are they created by conditions and circumstances? Do you have a choice of NOT reacting this way?

Gosh. This one I have to try and untangle. The criteria came about quite easily and it felt natural, once i had the input then there was the thoughts and feelings. How did they originally come about? In the distant past i would imagine, but I don't know - why those exact thoughts and feelings? It does feel as if there is a trigger of a general emotion, and then after that the thoughts try and explain and almost narrow down to "ah, this is the problem". Did i decide to use them? No. Are they created specifically by these circumstances - well, i don't know. They would be different if they were created by the individual circumstances? I don't know. Do I have a choice to not react? It feels like the answer is no. I don't have the choice to not get the triggers and have the process start, I can however then try and step out of the process and watch it which makes it less "first person".

There is also the possibility to look at what happens around you out of curiosity - what is really happening? Is there a border between you the so-called seer) and the seen? Is an activity happening that could be called „seeing“?

My first question is - isn't looking with curiosity, already applying a thinking filter to what you are seeing? When i describe just looking, i suppose the feeling i get is quite neutral. is the idea to try and feel curious, and then look? What is really happening? (really not sure what to answer here) Do you mean in what I am seeing? Or what happens to the thoughts around what I am seeing? The border question I think I understand. The feeling of seeing doesn't have a border between the seeing and seer. They flow together, and the more you look the more the one is part of the other. My mind tells me that, like gravity, there is a place that the seen is processed and that is separate to what is seen, but I cant experience where that is directly. The activity of "seeing" is more like perceiving/processing - as it is throwing all this input onto a screen that both sees, thinks about it and feels about it and they are kind of all interlinked. There is no way to find the edges of one at a "border", even though taken by themselves they are distinctly different.

As long as you cling to a certain outcome (a better life for *you*) the illusion of you will not reveal itself.

Cool. that makes sense.

Would you be able to tell that this thought will arise? Can you stop it before it arises?

Hmmm, I have no idea. I will try to tell. When I think about a thought like, "I haven't made it yet", its not even that refined, there is a feeling of weakness in my arms and hollowness, my mind calls it failure and my thoughts tell me it is all the bits of me - career, money, work, living... that can make up this feeling. Could I stop it? I think being disciplined around thinking could. When it arises, then you throw the thought out. I did this with smoking, and then you find you just don't think about it. So yes, i think its possible.

B

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

I can however then try and step out of the process and watch it which makes it less "first person".

I don’t know how you want to step out of this process, because as you say, you „don’t have the choice to not get the triggers“. Yes, you can watch it. I don’t know what you mean with „makes it less first person“ is. If you mean that you then see the story for a story, then I agree. Watching the process how a poor-me (or angry-me, or or or) gets constructed, takes the bite out of the poor-me-role.

isn't looking with curiosity, already applying a thinking filter to what you are seeing?

I meant „looking from a position of curiosity“, vs. the „looking in order to obtain peace“ that you described above. It might be a filter, but a useful one. Curiosity helps to untangle the ingrained thought patterns. If „neutrality“ is more motivating for you, then by all means dismiss curiosity.

The feeling of seeing doesn't have a border between the seeing and seer. They flow together, and the more you look the more the one is part of the other.

The *feeling* of seeing? It is about what you SEE. Not what you feel you see. Not what you think you see. When you look around you now, Is there really something flowing into something else? Unless you look at a fountain, of course.

My mind tells me that, like gravity, there is a place that the seen is processed and that is separate to what is seen, but I cant experience where that is directly.

Exactly. This is exactly what we’re after here. Your mind tells you stories about gravity and input and processing. Would we live in another culture, „your mind“ would talk about ghosts and angels causing stuff. But it is not what you experience. It is a more or less accurate thought model.

The activity of "seeing" is more like perceiving/processing - as it is throwing all this input onto a screen that both sees, thinks about it and feels about it and they are kind of all interlinked. There is no way to find the edges of one at a "border", even though taken by themselves they are distinctly different.

Look again. (Sorry!) Where do you perceive a screen? Interlinked sounds good, but what is interlinked with what? This is the same question as the flow-questions above.

Could I stop it? I think being disciplined around thinking could. When it arises, then you throw the thought out. I did this with smoking, and then you find you just don't think about it. So yes, i think its possible.

Then don’t think of the stupid pink elephant right now. It is such an overused image.
If „being disciplined about thinking“ would work, you probably would have stopped applying Hollywood film criteria to your own life.


With love,
Ghata