The Gate

Hi Korneliusz, and thanks for your answers. I am still having some confusion here about what is happening with you. For instance,

You say:

I don't feel like I'm liberated or that I see something.

And:

I don't experience anything new, anything unusual from my daily routine. No bliss, no relaxation.

And:

Am I a fucking robot that somehow got through to this place in the dialog?

You have stated very well many of the points of recognizing no self, but your words here cause me to think that you may not be experiencing them. It's possible that you are having a mental, intellectual realization, rather than an experiential one. So let's get clarity on that.

You say:

When I say "I", I'm reffering to the human, his name is Korneliusz

This sounds like there are two, one referring to the other. I am not sure what you mean here. Is there an 'I' who refers to the human being? What is this like, to refer to Korneliusz as 'the human?'. When you recognized this, how did it feel?

What did you experience when you first realized there was no self, no me? And how did you first realize it? We know you are not a 'robot'... so there must be feelings and gut sensations that happen. Do/did they happen anytime during these insights? If so, please tell me about them.

I don't SEE this.

Is there a 'who' who doesn't see?

And if you have realized there is no self, how can you not SEE it? This is confusing to me.

It may be frustrating to have been working so hard here and not yet be done, Korneliusz. But much has been accomplished. The rest will come.

Lisa

It may be frustrating to have been working so hard here and not yet be done, Korneliusz. But much has been accomplished. The rest will come.

I have frustration since many years, so it's nothing new.
Yes, I feel like I can't communicate, sth is blocking me, misguiding.
I don't think that much has been accomplished. I don't feel any change at all.

Just like I said some time before, I had experience with psychodelic seeds. I was lying on a bed, with a pain, both physical nad mental, in stomach, I was anxious, restless, my body was making many nervous-like tics, moves. I was at some point of fear or something, I had thoughts about killing myself probably, I had anxious thoughts about my life, very anxious physically because of this substances working in my body, troubling myself, whether I should "go to psychiatric clinic or just go insane?"( because I was depressed for so long and didn't see any future, any possibility, I didn't want to learn, there was no work that I would be satisfied with and even able to do). I was probably at some point speaking aloud to myself. And somehow this anxiousness, body frustration with some self-destruction feelings, maybe fear, dissolved. I had this "psychiatric clinic or go insane" in my mind, and somehow something disappeared, like I was talking aloud to myself, but it was like more empty inside. I jumped out from my bed, and went to other room and I saw my face in the mirror. It was somehow different. Something changed. I came closer and closer to the mirror, to the point where I touched the mirror with my nose, and there was that big difference. I laughed. I felt somehow free from that uneased, uncomfortable, with complexes, personality. Lying in a bathtub I felt what now I can only try to describe as big hole in my head. And yeah, there was no frustrating gut feeling, maybe some pleasant, light (not heavy) warmth in there instead. And I laughed, very laughed about things that I read, about osho, and meditating to become enlightened. And when I passed people on the street, had no negative feelings inside me projecting on them.
But it wasn't any realisation,no no-self realisation. I had doubts still, there wasn't any confidence, seeing-trough-illusion, about "the reality" or something.

This sounds like there are two, one referring to the other. I am not sure what you mean here. Is there an 'I' who refers to the human being? What is this like, to refer to Korneliusz as 'the human?'. When you recognized this, how did it feel?

I didn't recognize anything, just intellect it is. a concept. Like fitting to your questions, maybe. I think that there should be some kind of clarity, confidence, but it's more like I"m struggling when answering.

What did you experience when you first realized there was no self, no me? And how did you first realize it? We know you are not a 'robot'... so there must be feelings and gut sensations that happen. Do/did they happen anytime during these insights? If so, please tell me about them.

this "no self" phrase doesn't point to anything I've experienced.

It's like that if you say about no-self, I will "see" it, I will adjust- I only change content of my thoughts.

Is there a 'who' who doesn't see?

still empty words for me, nothing inside me responds to that. You could write "fdfsdfs dada 33 fddd ?", and it probably would feel the same to me.

Really, I can give up here, if only you say this won't work on me now. Maybe I should, you would have some time saved or something. It's like everything I can say would be pointless, like shooting in the feet instead of shooting in the target.

I was also at satsang with Mooji, there I was sitting in one place on the floor, knees near my chest and my hand on my knees, with head hided. I was listening to others asking him a questions. And I was really tense. Normally I'm also but back then I had also a second or two of little vibration in this gut feeling. But nothing special.

OK LISA,

I'M BACK AGAIN,
LOOKED FOR SOURCE OF THOUGHTS,
FOUND NOTHING.

SPACE, THOUGHTS APPEAR, DISAPPEAR
SOME OF THEM ARE MORE DISTURBING, LIKE A CHILD MAKING YOU FOCUS ON IT.

THOUGHT: "WHO AM I?"
I FEEL I SHOULD LOOK MORE FOR THE ANSWER, HAVEN'T FOUND ANY YET.

HUGHS,
MR>KORNELIUSZ VON AUSCHWITZ

TALK TO YOU SOON>>>>>>>

SEE?
HA HA HAHA, TOLD YA I'LL BE BACK.

SO<
AT FIRST,
WHEN I CAME BACK TO SIT IN MY BASEMENT,
NOTHING
AND THEN THIS KINDA VORTEX-POINT NEAR MY CHEST,

SO<
QUESTION: DO 'I' EXIST?

SOMETHING STARTED TO WARM UP A LITTLE- THIS VORTEX-POINT I MEAN.
ALSO HEARTBEAT RATE INCREASED.

HUGHS,
MR>KORNELIUSZ VON AUSCHWITZ (NOT TYPING FROM THE PRISON CAMP, OF COURSE)

GOING BACK TO SIT AND LOOK.
AND MAYBE DISCOVER.

AWAITING YOUR ORDERS.

i meant hugs.

Hi Korneliusz... You sound a lot lighter now. This is good. You were seeming very heavy for a while.

We are going to get you out of your head and into the fullness of real understanding Kornelius. Let's start here:

You said:

LOOKED FOR SOURCE OF THOUGHTS,
FOUND NOTHING.

SPACE, THOUGHTS APPEAR, DISAPPEAR
SOME OF THEM ARE MORE DISTURBING, LIKE A CHILD MAKING YOU FOCUS ON IT.

Great. You hit it exactly: thoughts appear, disappear in space.

As to the CONTENT of thoughts ("some of them are more disturbing...") don't concern yourself with that at all. Content is not important now. The key is to see that thoughts are from nowhere going to nowhere and are not controllable.

Do you see this, that thoughts are not controllable?

And I am NOT meaning: do you follow my words intellectually and agree intellectually! I mean: when you look at this idea do you see how it is real? That thoughts come from nowhere, go to nowhere and are not controllable? Take as long as necessary to really look at this, Korneliusz. This is how to 'look' at everything here... NOT intellect, but whole view: understanding, feeling... 'getting it'.

You said:

THOUGHT: "WHO AM I?"
I FEEL I SHOULD LOOK MORE FOR THE ANSWER, HAVEN'T FOUND ANY YET.

It is the wrong question, Korneliusz. You cannot find the answer to 'Who am I?' But you CAN find the answer to 'Is there a me, I, self?' That is doable. And do not worry that you are not feeling you have answers yet. You have been looking with brain/thoughts/intellect. Not findable that way... :)))

This is my first post back to you. More immediately following; I wanted to separate the ideas.

So... answer the above, comment on what I've said. Do this after giving all of this deep pondering; don't just think about... don't merely find a way to intellectually agree with me. That does not serve you here in the slightest.

Give all of this, and everything from now on, thought AND the rest of it... open to what is said, feelings about what is said... gut reactions... no more surface stuff, Kornelius. Go deep.

Your mind by itself cannot take you through the gate.

Lots of appreciation here for you...

Lisa

OK... if you are done with the first post, and answered back to me, here's the second:

One step at a time, let's look at how things can be real or not-real, Korneliusz. This will help you have deeper realizations, more than intellectual ideas or just agreeing with me with matching thoughts.

What we are going for here is not conceptual or intellectual at all. It is like the difference between a chair, a school, and Santa Claus.

Look at these 3 Korneliusz, can you see how they are very different?

A table is a THING, real in 3D life, and will not disappear if you stop believing in it.

'School' is a labeling word we use to communicate an idea; everyone is on the same page with it, yet it is not found in real life (only the buildings, books, desks are in 3D life). It, too, will not disappear just because you do not believe in it.

Santa Claus is an idea, a belief, a thought. It exists as this idea and seems 'real' until you learn it is only a story. Once it is completely recognized that Santa does not exist anywhere except in thoughts, you simply cannot believe again that it is 'real'. It is a thought that seemed to have reality, but never did.

So we have: 1.Things that have reality in 3D life 2. Conceptual labels for things that have reality in 3D life 3. Ideas that we assume to have reality until we see that they do not.

Now... look at a table. Notice how 'real' it is. You cannot make it 'unreal', right? Close your eyes, think of the table. Now imagine that table has disappeared, poof! Gone. You do not believe in table any more. Open your eyes. The table is still there, right? Do this several times. Table is real no matter how many times you disbelieve it. No doubts, right?

Think about a school near your home... close your eyes and see buildings, desks, computers. People go in and out, sit at the desks. Now think poof! school gone... desks, buildings, people... all gone. You stop believing in it, it was never real in the first place. Open your eyes and remember the real school. It's still there, isn't it? Not gone just by thinking it gone. It exists... even though 'school' is just a label with NO reality at all.

Now think about Santa... you thought, as a child, he was real, had a body and a beard and a red outfit, right? Close your eyes and see that figure. Remember how it was so real to you.. you believed it existed. Now remember that it is a story... a thought... not at all real and never ever was. And once you KNEW, really KNEW that Santa was false, you never again could think of Santa as real. Never.


Ponder these 3 with all of your abilities... look at, understand, perhaps feel. Really 'get it' with more than just thinking.

Get back to me about this when you are clear and tell me about it.

Lisa

Korneliusz... you still with me? What's happening?

Lisa

no observation happens.

Hi Korneliusz..

Well, more information is needed here. 'no observation happens' is not telling me anything.

Ponder table, school, santa. What's real of those? What lasts even if you stop believing in it?

Let me know.

Hugs,
Lisa

no observation happens- I'm not Looking, "in my head", "lost in thoughts", can't answer or look for answer to your questions above, "only intelectually".

in some sense table and school last, santa remains only as an imagination, in memory. but that's probably only intelectually answer, no looking or discovering.

i also have doubts, because there's no table or school or santa in some sense, I don't see tables, schools, santas, but when you say "table", i know what you are reffering to, and then i can say that there is a table in front of me. But If you didn't ask...I wouldn't consider table as a table. Like, it would not exist, it would be silent, no thoughts about it. Maybe it would exist, but not as a concept, word, "table". Like it wouldn't affect me, it wouldn't disturb my attention.

"Believing" is what exactly?

But If you didn't ask...I wouldn't consider table as a table. Like, it would not exist

In is in only your direct experience of seeing, touching, smelling, that table does not exist if you are not with it or thinking about it. That table is still real in the world! Table = table. Period. No matter what you 'think'.

Santa does not stop existing if you stop belief in it, because it never existed in the first place. It cannot disappear if it was never real. Only thoughts you had ABOUT santa were there. Stop believing in those thoughts and santa disappears from YOU... you know it is not real. Santa = story. Period. No matter how much you 'think' it is real.

What happens when you see this, Korneliuz? Really see this?

Don't intellectualize. SEE.

Lisa

i don't believe in santa , so no problem.

What happens when you see this, Korneliuz? Really see this?

i don't see, so no point in answering.

I don't remember believing in table or other object.

So, we can distinguish:

- things that exists, reality, they don't disappear if we stop thinking about them or stop believing in them or stop experiencing them
- beliefs-imaginary things that does not exist, are non-real. Beliefs exist in human, but the object of belief doesn't