Truth for All

[JonathanR]

OMG. LOL. I started laughing even more after I read part of the last bit. I can not find anyone that decided. It seemed to happen all by itself with the goal in mind: Get a hot drink. So it seems like the in between events are just like a mirage. While ‘I’ appeared to do it, “I” was also thinking about something else, like getting ready to go out for a conference this morning. Like the action did not even need the mind to be there for the body to do what it had to do. The body just followed instructions without a ‘me’?

Ha ha. Yes. It can be very funny.

You mention 'mind' and it is commonly assumed that 'mind exists' (like a thing). But in experience, can 'mind' actually be observed? Can it be found? Look for 'mind'.

But even with the idea of 'the goal', did someone actually 'decide' this goal, or was there, perhaps, a complex flow of events in life that led up to an apparent decision 'being made'? (plus an illusion of a 'self deciding'?)

It just happened yes. So all of this is uncontrollable as much as our heartbeat or our breathing!?

Certainly looks this way, doesn't it? Is it possible to find a 'controller' anywhere in experience?

Best wishes,

Jon

[jomarie7]

Hi Jon,

You mention 'mind' and it is commonly assumed that 'mind exists' (like a thing). But in experience, can 'mind' actually be observed? Can it be found? Look for 'mind'.

‘MIND’…I guess I imagine it to be some kind of area somewhere in or around the head/body that contains ‘thoughts’. But I can not find a ‘M-I-N-D’. A four letter word to point to some kind of abstract idea of thought content and formless. I do not see ‘MIND’. Just an idea that could never be known to be true for sure.

But even with the idea of 'the goal', did someone actually 'decide' this goal, or was there, perhaps, a complex flow of events in life that led up to an apparent decision 'being made'? (plus an illusion of a 'self deciding'?)

All of this is a dream like event yes. Complex, yes. So there is no decicion in reality. All of it, Just IS. The idea of deciding is a made up idea. There is no cause and effect. That is also all made up.

Is it possible to find a 'controller' anywhere in experience?

I am thinking of Oz the Magician. Analogically, when Dorothy finds the tiny man hiding behind his ‘multiple façades’. There was nothing behind, in a sense. At least not what she imagined it to be. I can not find a controller of this body.

Have a great day!

Jomarie

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

‘MIND’…I guess I imagine it to be some kind of area somewhere in or around the head/body that contains ‘thoughts’. But I can not find a ‘M-I-N-D’. A four letter word to point to some kind of abstract idea of thought content and formless. I do not see ‘MIND’. Just an idea that could never be known to be true for sure. 

Yes. It seems extraordinary to be asked to look for 'mind' and not be able to find one, doesn't it?

All of this is a dream like event yes. Complex, yes. So there is no decicion in reality. All of it, Just IS. The idea of deciding is a made up idea. There is no cause and effect. That is also all made up. 

Beautiful.

I am thinking of Oz the Magician. Analogically, when Dorothy finds the tiny man hiding behind his ‘multiple façades’. There was nothing behind, in a sense. At least not what she imagined it to be. I can not find a controller of this body.

That's a great analogy.
Good. But it seems that what is called 'life' is going on anyway, even if it is dream-like. Cause and effect can't be found. Can anything be found 'making things happen'?

Now would be a good time to take a walk in nature, or at least a park, or some open natural place where everything is alive. Notice it all going on,, sky, sun,clouds,trees,grass,animals,people,insects. Right now, can a line be found between 'you' and 'everything'? Or is it all happening together?

With good woshes

Jon

[jomarie7]

Bonjour Jon,

Yes. It seems extraordinary to be asked to look for 'mind' and not be able to find one, doesn't it?

Yes for sure. It is extra-ordinary.

Good. But it seems that what is called 'life' is going on anyway, even if it is dream-like. Cause and effect can't be found. Can anything be found 'making things happen'?

I can not find anything no. If I look with my eyes, no. The presumed ideas about the subject is imaginary. At the end of it, I don't know and it seems like no one knows.

Now would be a good time to take a walk in nature, or at least a park, or some open natural place where everything is alive. Notice it all going on,, sky, sun,clouds,trees,grass,animals,people,insects. Right now, can a line be found between 'you' and 'everything'? Or is it all happening together?

I looked. There is no line to be found no. Where does something ends and something else begins? I seem to see different forms and structures, like the table, the computer, the clouds, the sky etc...but no lines no.

Jomarie

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

Just a brief message to say sorry about a breakdown in internet connection where I am for a few days. The best I could manage before another WiFi failure was to post this message.

I promise that I will be on touch as soon as possible.


Best wishes,

Jon

[jomarie7]

No problem Jon...it gives me more time to practice my LOOKing.
Connection is no matter what :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

Thanks for your patience. Also thanks for your replies to my last proper post.

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

If you look, is there a 'self' here right now?


Best wishes,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Jomarie,

My travels are over now and internet is no problem. How is it going?

Jon

[jomarie7]

Hi Jon,

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

If you look, is there a 'self' here right now?

I can not seem to be able to answer positively. I keep looking at the question and I feel stuck...:(. Going through a bit of a rough time rignt now. I guess, I have instances when I completely disappear and some kind of mechanism takes over that I could never explain. I see, but not with my eyes because my eyes are shut. There is only what is seen, without the story, without 'my' story. There is such a relief in those instances! It is as if jomarie is no more. But I can not say that it is my moment to moment experience since I feel contracted all the time however subtle it is. I mean, for me, life continus to be melo-dramatic to say the least. I try my best to come out of it. And I do for a while. I feel better for a while. But it does not last. So to me, it is a relative Joy, dependant on something, otherwise it would be smoother, I would think. Sorry. Feeling kind of discouraged at this point. It feels like I have no 'will' for anything. Oh God...Here I go again...this too shall pass...jomarie

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

Good to hear from you.

It's very good that you have given an honest account of what's going on. Can you say when this 'no will for anything' feeling started?

I have instances when I completely disappear and some kind of mechanism takes over that I could never explain. I see, but not with my eyes because my eyes are shut. There is only what is seen, without the story, without 'my' story. There is such a relief in those instances! It is as if jomarie is no more.

This sounds good.

But I can not say that it is my moment to moment experience since I feel contracted all the time however subtle it is. I mean, for me, life continus to be melo-dramatic to say the least.

When you say you feel contracted, try looking for a 'you' that feels contracted. If you try this you may find that the sensation of contraction is raw and real but that 'behind it' there is no actual owner of the sensation? It's worth looking directly at the sensation and for any thought that appears to be triggering the sensation. Together these convey an impression that contraction is happening to 'someone',...'me'.

It may not happen that this thought/sensation combination simply stops. We looked at how thoughts seem to appear by themselves? It can be an expectation that unpleasant or unwanted thoughts and sensations should immediately cease.

In experience life goes on, work has to get done. Some of it may not seem attractive. There can be tensions. But does any of this prevent the seeing that 'self' had always been an assumption? Isn't it always possible to look and see this many times?

Sorry. Feeling kind of discouraged at this point. It feels like I have no 'will' for anything

No worries. The discouragement will pass. I'm interested in the 'no will for anything'. Can you let me know how this feels, any thoughts that are associated with this feeling, how this feeling seems to come about? Do you think it relates to this inquiry?

Best wishes,

Jon

[jomarie7]

Hello Jon,

I'm interested in the 'no will for anything'. Can you let me know how this feels, any thoughts that are associated with this feeling, how this feeling seems to come about? Do you think it relates to this inquiry?

I think it has been with me off and on most of my life. Probably started in my adolescence. At this time I feel like I do what I have to do but it is as if there is not much heart into what I am doing. It almost feels mechanical. Emotionless or passionless maybe. I don’t know. I do have thoughts about wanting to disappear at times. Feeling depressed too. And if I appear more joyous, I feel like I am faking it. Combined with that, unpleasant symptoms and pain.

I have to say that I was playing with the headless way exercises for the last couple of weeks. So I don’t know if it is related. There is like a yearning for me to wake up

When you say you feel contracted, try looking for a 'you' that feels contracted. If you try this you may find that the sensation of contraction is raw and real but that 'behind it' there is no actual owner of the sensation? It's worth looking directly at the sensation and for any thought that appears to be triggering the sensation.

Hum…yes I can see that there is no owner when looking behind. Hiding behind the pain…there is no one. No entity. I think the main though with all of it is some kind of a fear to loose or to miss or lack something.

Together these convey an impression that contraction is happening to 'someone',...'me'.

Wow…yes. Thank you. I like that. Its an impression. Not reality.

It may not happen that this thought/sensation combination simply stops. We looked at how thoughts seem to appear by themselves? It can be an expectation that unpleasant or unwanted thoughts and sensations should immediately cease.

Yes it is an expectation. I notice the word ‘immediately’. It is true that I see that it all passes without exception. But there is an expectation for ‘immediately’, yes…

In experience life goes on, work has to get done. Some of it may not seem attractive. There can be tensions. But does any of this prevent the seeing that 'self' had always been an assumption? Isn't it always possible to look and see this many times?

Yes for sure. Nothing can prevent seeing that there is no one. I feel like a cat sometimes. The only thing attractive for me right now is eat and sleep and play ;)

Thanks!
Jomarie

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

There is like a yearning for me to wake up

That's definitely a good thing and in your favour.

Hum…yes I can see that there is no owner when looking behind. Hiding behind the pain…there is no one. No entity. I think the main though with all of it is some kind of a fear to loose or to miss or lack something.

Good. While these feelings of contraction are an issue it is good to look at them, allow them to be fully experienced. Don't resist them. They may be telling you something.

Together these convey an impression that contraction is happening to 'someone',...'me'.


Wow…yes. Thank you. I like that. Its an impression. Not reality.

Notice this. Isn't the typical experience one of assuming 'this is happening to me'...'I am contracted'? And yet this can be seen as a mix of thought and sensation, going off like a signal of some sort, but who or what is the owner of it?

I feel like a cat sometimes. The only thing attractive for me right now is eat and sleep and play ;)

Sounds okay to me ;-) Cats are underestimated.

Nothing can prevent seeing that there is no one.

Good. This would suggest that you have seen that there is no self and that what is conventionally understood to be 'I' or 'me' is seen through. So now we need to look at any doubts that you may have that this is seen. Let me know any doubts or misgivings and we can ook at them.

Jon :-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

How is it going?

Best wishes,

Jon

[jomarie7]

Hi Jon,

Sorry for the delay Jon...its been crazy busy. And it appears that I had no control over my next reply. Sometimes it feels to me like a dream. I sometimes dream at night of trying to get somewhere or trying to reach someone on the phone and I can not seem to run fast enough or to dial the right numbers. Like I was trying to get to the forum and I just could not. There is no me that can 'make me' or 'not make me'. So about doubts. I dont know. No doubt coming up right now...hum...one thing comes up yes. What about peace. Like I can not say I am/feel peaceful. As a matter of fact I feel stressed very often. But then again. 'Stress' happens without me...hum...I guess there remains an idea that I should be more peaceful if I 'SAW'. Something I would realy like is to be at peace no matter what appears to happen around me. I don't feel I am there(at peace no matter what) yet.

Thanks,
Jomarie

[JonathanR]

Hi Jomarie,

I understand about your being very busy. That isn't ideal but at least when you do turn to consider this conversation give yourself some peaceful time to really look at it,

Let's deal with your main point head on.

What about peace. Like I can not say I am/feel peaceful. As a matter of fact I feel stressed very often. But then again. 'Stress' happens without me...hum...I guess there remains an idea that I should be more peaceful if I 'SAW'. Something I would realy like is to be at peace no matter what appears to happen around me. I don't feel I am there(at peace no matter what) yet.

You are absolutely right, stress (and other sensations) happen without a 'me', but it seems that there is 'someone' that is 'stressed'! Don't resist stressful feelings but if possible notice them, recognise them as sensations. Let them flow freely or, if that isn't happening, take a look behind the stressful sensations to see what is there.

It could be imagined that 'peace' is achevable by a 'self'. But since there is no self, how can 'peace' be 'achieved'?

That is not at all as negative as it may sound, by the way. Seeing through the assumption that there really is a 'me' behind it all 'suffering stess' leaves a situation in which sensations are definitely happening but not 'to' anyone. Do you see?

And it may be that the stressful sensations are telling you that something could do with changing? They can be a kind of allarm bell.


There is often an expecataion that seeing no self should immediately equate to 'peace no matter what' or maybe 'all thoughts should completely stop' or maybe there should be a heavenly fanfare. All we can do at LU is point the way to look. Then the client sees that there really is no self. How that will be experienced cannot be predicted but is usually not what had been expected. How does this sit with you?

Best wishes,

Jon