Scratching the surface

[tupapa]

Yeh, why not, is not lige anybody would be there to care, not even him right?

Thanks for this exchange Petrus, although there hasn't been a major shift in experience, this dialogue has made more obvious how the self just doesn't survive scrutiny.

Is there anything you would advise as a follow up to this conversation?

Best wishes,

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

I agree I feel no shift there either.
But if there is no question left, then it must be ok over there, isnt it?
Or are there questions left?

[Petrus]

You like to chat? Skype or Facebook?

[tupapa]

sure, whats your skype?

[Petrus]

I did sent a PM

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

Following our Skype chat, and some deliberation, I seem to be at a stage where I have seen how there is no self; the self that is identified with the body or with thoughts or with the mind is nowhere to be find.

However there ARE thoughts (albeit no thinker), and there is a difference on how these are experienced. There also is a mind (albeit no owner) and there is a difference on the quality of the mind and how whatever is arising is experienced.

With regards to thoughts, the most meaningful difference is whether thoughts are noticed after they arise or as they arise.

When thoughts are noticed after they arise, they capture awareness, they really ARE empowered and they hijack attention until they are finally noticed. Once they are noticed, a thought emerges that creates the “self reference point” (What the fuck was I doing, thinking about how I am failure and I will never accomplish anything in life), but during the time when thoughts where unnoticed, they not only captured our attention and changed the quality of experience, they also influenced behaviour.

On the other side of the spectrum, when thoughts are noticed precisely as they arise, they are completely disempowered, there is no option for them to capture attention because they are being noticed for what they are, merely temporary appearances in awareness. And this quality of attention results in thoughts arising and vanishing with ease, no struggle, thoughts are completely disempowered and there is real freedom

How does the realisation that there is no self, relate to these modes of experience? Is it worth pursuing a way that is conducive towards experiencing life with the latter perspective?

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

but during the time when thoughts where unnoticed, they not only captured our attention and changed the quality of experience, they also influenced behaviour.

You do notice this, dont you?

Is it worth pursuing a way that is conducive towards experiencing life with the latter perspective?

Who or what is there to pursue?

Just relax and enjoy.

Warm regards, Petrus

[Petrus]

For the record. This is our Skype conversation:

[18-9-2015 2:13:40] Gael: Hello Peter this is tupapa from LU
[18-9-2015 2:14:30] *** Peter van de Griendt heeft contactdetails gedeeld met Gael. ***
[18-9-2015 2:14:57] Peter van de Griendt: Hi Tupapa
[18-9-2015 2:15:08] Gael: Hi
[18-9-2015 2:15:20] Gael: thanks for providing your Skype!
[18-9-2015 2:15:30] Gael: also being so late in europe
[18-9-2015 2:15:48] Peter van de Griendt: Its 2 o'clock here
[18-9-2015 2:16:22] Gael: and more importantly thanks for the exchange
[18-9-2015 2:16:34] Gael: they are all things I understood conceptually
[18-9-2015 2:16:43] Gael: but never actually stopped and looked within in detail
[18-9-2015 2:17:17] Peter van de Griendt: you're welcome
[18-9-2015 2:17:55] Peter van de Griendt: but like you I feel, no shift happened yet
[18-9-2015 2:18:19] Peter van de Griendt: no need for a shift ofcourse
[18-9-2015 2:19:01] Peter van de Griendt: but if there is anything left to ask there, please do
[18-9-2015 2:19:23] *** Gebeld naar Gael, geen antwoord.
Videobericht versturen ***
[18-9-2015 2:19:39] Gael: id rather chat if thats ok with you
[18-9-2015 2:20:24] Gael: would you say
[18-9-2015 2:20:46] Gael: one one sees there is no self
[18-9-2015 2:20:53] Gael: (paradox)
[18-9-2015 2:21:02] Gael: what is there to do
[18-9-2015 2:21:22] Gael: just become accustomed to this?
[18-9-2015 2:21:38] Gael: after years of conditioning?
[18-9-2015 2:25:08] Peter van de Griendt: i am not sure i get what you mean
if you really see, it really is something you have to get accustomed with
[18-9-2015 2:26:15] Gael: Yes I understand, although I imagine there will be residual thoughts of self appearing?
[18-9-2015 2:26:26] Peter van de Griendt: ofcourse
[18-9-2015 2:26:37] Gael: understood
[18-9-2015 2:26:41] Gael: there is something else
[18-9-2015 2:26:54] Gael: Meditation is something that brings profound peace
[18-9-2015 2:27:15] Gael: and it is in this state that the first glimpses of no self appeared
[18-9-2015 2:27:37] Gael: is it advised?
[18-9-2015 2:27:59] Peter van de Griendt: there are 2 kinds of peace haha:
[18-9-2015 2:28:32] Peter van de Griendt: 1. peace that is temporary
2. peace that lasts
[18-9-2015 2:29:54] Peter van de Griendt: you can do evry thing you want, but if you ask me if it is advised I think you experience peace of the first kind
[18-9-2015 2:30:22] Gael: fair enough
[18-9-2015 2:30:28] Gael: so how do you experience the second kind?
[18-9-2015 2:31:48] Peter van de Griendt: if it feels ok for you, please do
the second kind is that no matter what happens: shit or heaven, it is ok
[18-9-2015 2:31:59] Gael: yes
[18-9-2015 2:32:02] Gael: there is something else
[18-9-2015 2:32:24] Gael: sometimes angry thoughts appear or thoughts of worry, jelousy etc..
[18-9-2015 2:32:30] Gael: they are very powerful
[18-9-2015 2:32:41] Gael: they capture awareness for an ammount of time
[18-9-2015 2:32:47] Gael: and often lead to undesired actions
[18-9-2015 2:33:02] Gael: This is something I mentioned during our exchange
[18-9-2015 2:33:08] Peter van de Griendt: yes
[18-9-2015 2:33:17] Gael: Is there are way
[18-9-2015 2:33:21] Gael: to prevent this from happening
[18-9-2015 2:35:37] Peter van de Griendt: the point is, there is no I
if you ask, if there is any way to prevent, you believe there is an I
that is the basic problem
and the answer is: there is no I
[18-9-2015 2:36:54] Peter van de Griendt: for me everything is just happening: shit and happiness
[18-9-2015 2:37:33] Peter van de Griendt: it doesnt matter for me
[18-9-2015 2:37:49] Gael: So
[18-9-2015 2:38:12] Gael: these angry thoughts, they just happen
[18-9-2015 2:38:19] Peter van de Griendt: yessss
[18-9-2015 2:38:26] Gael: haha fair enough
[18-9-2015 2:38:51] Peter van de Griendt: and the I thought that wants to prevent it too
[18-9-2015 2:39:34] Peter van de Griendt: that is the basic insight: the one that wants to prevent is a thought only
[18-9-2015 2:39:46] Gael: yes
[18-9-2015 2:39:57] Gael: but let me elaborate
[18-9-2015 2:40:04] Peter van de Griendt: ok
[18-9-2015 2:40:16] Gael: In my experience, there is a difference between simply thinking
[18-9-2015 2:40:20] Gael: and seeing thoughts arising
[18-9-2015 2:40:27] Gael: without fighting them
[18-9-2015 2:40:34] Gael: or judging them
[18-9-2015 2:40:39] Gael: or preventing them
[18-9-2015 2:40:42] Gael: right?
[18-9-2015 2:41:41] Peter van de Griendt: ther is no one (other than thoughts also) that can fight/judge/prevent
[18-9-2015 2:42:00] Gael: yes
[18-9-2015 2:42:04] Gael: i agree
[18-9-2015 2:42:27] Gael: but the fundamental difference in my experience is thinking, and seeing thoughts arise
[18-9-2015 2:42:44] Gael: you put it very clearly
[18-9-2015 2:42:46] Gael: when you said
[18-9-2015 2:42:54] Gael: You see the thought arise, and you smile at it
[18-9-2015 2:43:01] Gael: and see it go away
[18-9-2015 2:43:04] Gael: it is only a thought
[18-9-2015 2:43:05] Gael: right?
[18-9-2015 2:43:10] Gael: something along those lines?
[18-9-2015 2:43:56] Peter van de Griendt: you see a difference between thinking and seeing thoughts?
[18-9-2015 2:44:08] Gael: yes
[18-9-2015 2:44:15] Gael: absolutely
[18-9-2015 2:44:33] Peter van de Griendt: you need a shrink haha
[18-9-2015 2:44:45] Peter van de Griendt: what is the difference?
[18-9-2015 2:45:25] Gael: haha
[18-9-2015 2:47:14] Gael: The difference is that when I think without being aware, the thinking process just hijacks awareness
[18-9-2015 2:47:24] Gael: And I am no longer aware of whatever is around me (hardly)
[18-9-2015 2:47:32] Gael: I am fully engaged in the process of thinking
[18-9-2015 2:48:02] Gael: Seeing thoughts is completely different, the thought is just another appearance in awareness
[18-9-2015 2:48:26] Gael: just like the noises, the wind, the sun, and whatever is appearing in awareness
[18-9-2015 2:49:11] Gael: The best example I can give of the difference is the following
[18-9-2015 2:49:23] Gael: I am in a situation of conflict, anger on some other visceral emotion
[18-9-2015 2:49:30] Gael: If I am merely thinking, I act impulsively
[18-9-2015 2:49:39] Gael: If I am seeing thoughts I don´t
[18-9-2015 2:51:28] Peter van de Griendt: But who is having a problem with fully being engaged?
It just happens!
maybe it is fear of losing control?
which dont have any way?
[18-9-2015 2:52:09] Peter van de Griendt: Gael I have to sleep now
[18-9-2015 2:52:25] Peter van de Griendt: maybe you meditate now haha
[18-9-2015 2:52:29] Gael: haha
[18-9-2015 2:52:53] Gael: meditation will take place
[18-9-2015 2:52:53] Gael: :D
[18-9-2015 2:53:14] Gael: ok Peter, good chatting with you
[18-9-2015 2:53:33] Gael: Maybe another time this conversation will continue
[18-9-2015 2:54:29] Gael: Thanks again for your time!
[18-9-2015 2:54:51] Gael: lets hope your diagnosis of the shrink isn´t actually required haha
[18-9-2015 2:54:56] Peter van de Griendt: Yes, that s fine... but for now |-)
[18-9-2015 2:55:11] Gael: good night
[18-9-2015 2:55:59] Peter van de Griendt: ok
[18-9-2015 3:00:21] Peter van de Griendt: maybe you "think" a little again and respond on the forum again?
[18-9-2015 3:00:45] Peter van de Griendt: ok, sleep well for now
[18-9-2015 3:01:05] Gael: Sure
[18-9-2015 3:01:08] Gael: let me give it some time
[18-9-2015 3:03:01] Peter van de Griendt: Take all the time it needs

[tupapa]

You do notice this, dont you?

This is noticed, evidently after the fact, which is when the thought relating to the self-reference point emerges.

Who or what is there to pursue?

The downstairs neighbour, she is definitely worth the pursue :D


Best Wishes,

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa

The downstairs neighbour, she is definitely worth the pursue :D

What are you waiting for? Hahaha.

You do notice this, dont you?

This is noticed, evidently after the fact, which is when the thought relating to the self-reference point emerges.

I meant: you only can see something that is noticed.
How do you know there were thoughts that were unnoticed?
I think what you said is a way of expressing what you did notice, not what you didnt notice.

Warm regards,

Tupapa

[Petrus]

I am already identifying with you, haha.
I should have written:

Warm regards, Petrus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tupapa]

What are you waiting for? Hahaha.

Waiting for the courage to emerge haha

I meant: you only can see something that is noticed.
How do you know there were thoughts that were unnoticed?
I think what you said is a way of expressing what you did notice, not what you didnt notice.

Here, there is a discrepancy, seeing something and noticing it are not synonymous in my world. For instance my girlfriend, she has a small freckle under her left eye, I saw it everyday I spoke with her but didn´t notice it until one day, after many months attention was paid to it.

Similarly, thoughts are often seen, but not really noticed; an angry thought towards how "I am being treated unfairly at work, my boss is an arsehole" emerges and captures attention, until it is finally noticed for what it is; Simply a thought, a temporary appearance in awareness, then attention is free to move on to the next thought, (or not, sometimes the thought is so strong and abrasive as to refuse to leave and perpetuates a drama with the "self" at the centre of the stage)

Best wishes,

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

she has a small freckle under her left eye, I saw it everyday I spoke with her but didn´t notice it until one day, after many months attention was paid to it.

So now you make a world (and a girlfriend) that exist separate from you. But you dont know if that is true, and you never will know. All you know is what you perceive. The rest is thought and speculation.

an angry thought towards how "I am being treated unfairly at work, my boss is an arsehole" emerges and captures attention, until it is finally noticed for what it is; Simply a thought,

So what is it before you call it simply a thought? Not simply a thought?
Maybe a feeling? Maybe no label at all? But still you experience it!

So there is mechanism that wants to notice all freckles in the world: you cant haha.
Notice the mechanism: wanting to control.
Experience the mechanism exists. And after that leave it be...

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

So now you make a world (and a girlfriend) that exist separate from you. But you dont know if that is true, and you never will know. All you know is what you perceive. The rest is thought and speculation.

It was merely an example to point out the difference between seeing and noticing. For what it's worth I don't have a girlfriend, there is a thought of a hypothetical girlfriend with a hypothetical freckle, no separation.

All I know is what I perceive? You mean through my senses?

So what is it before you call it simply a thought? Not simply a thought?
Maybe a feeling? Maybe no label at all? But still you experience it!

So there is mechanism that wants to notice all freckles in the world: you cant haha.
Notice the mechanism: wanting to control.
Experience the mechanism exists. And after that leave it be...

Warmest regards, Petrus

No label, no feelings, no control the crux is; is there a difference in experience between thinking and noticing thoughts as they arise?


Best wishes

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

For what it's worth I don't have a girlfriend

ok. haha.
maybe you should look for her: she doesnt have a freckle after all.

All I know is what I perceive? You mean through my senses?

I mean that: all you make up with your mind is.... what you make up wth your mind.
And what you see, is what you see.
So you can see the idea/thought of unnoticed thoughts. It still is just a thought.
As well as the thought of me, isnt really me!

the crux is; is there a difference in experience between thinking and noticing thoughts as they arise?

Is the answer you are looking formaybe in this?:
Noticing is a special kind of thought ( Once they are noticed, a thought emerges that creates the “self reference point” ), but they still are a kind of thought

And by the way: The self reference indeed is created, while life was doing extremely well without it, maybe even better. Were you ever aware of the fact that "I" only is there when thinking?

Warm regards, Petrus.