Kristian's thread

[kristian]

Test this out. Get off that meditation cushion and go to the busiest, least peaceful place you know. A place that is fully conducive to noise, distraction and excessive thinking. Immerse yourself there.

Then look.

Is there a self?

well that's exactly what i've been doing every day. i work at the airport offering massage to passengers. it's loud, it's busy, and so am i at times! i have been looking at this topic every day while working. and if you ask in this way, upon reflection i must answer- there's no self. there's just the things happening- thoughts, sensations, actions, reactions...
so why, then, is there still immersion and belief of thoughts? where is the abiding clarity? this no-self is truly dawning gradually and more clearly. it's like an ice cube that's slowly melting the more it's looked at from different angles. i suppose there is still expectation of some sort of pristine state.

Yes, and do any of these decision require an abiter to be made?

no arbiter is actually necessary when i untangle myself from the thought processes. so thoughts are weighed and decisions made. thats it. no one doing it. great. i see it. now it needs to be experienced...

Take any example you feel comfortable with and dissect the experience down its barest elements- is there a self excercising free will? Really?

Give me one example.

so i decide to go to sleep now, and before that i will sit for a few minutes, just for the hell of it. now looking at this "decision" i have come to realise that it's based on the thoughts that i need a good night's sleep because i am working so much lately. i can see that this, as many other decisions, is thought based. and apparently i assumed control over the thoughts. actually the thoughts are just arising. BUT, ISN'T THERE SOMETHING THAT CAN CHOOSE WHICH THOUGHTS TO ACT UPON? some kind of intellegence that the thoughts report to?

[Damon Kamda]

so why, then, is there still immersion and belief of thoughts? where is the abiding clarity? this no-self is truly dawning gradually and more clearly. it's like an ice cube that's slowly melting the more it's looked at from different angles. i suppose there is still expectation of some sort of pristine state.

Does the experience of belief in a thought require a self?
Does the experience of immersion in thought require a self?

no arbiter is actually necessary when i untangle myself from the thought processes.

There's no one to be untangled, Kristian.

Can you see how even unfreedom has only ever been a thought itself?

great. i see it. now it needs to be experienced...

It's already being experienced- look!

so i decide to go to sleep now, and before that i will sit for a few minutes, just for the hell of it. now looking at this "decision" i have come to realise that it's based on the thoughts that i need a good night's sleep because i am working so much lately. i can see that this, as many other decisions, is thought based. and apparently i assumed control over the thoughts. actually the thoughts are just arising.

Yes, it's all thoughts. Everything. Every thing.

BUT, ISN'T THERE SOMETHING THAT CAN CHOOSE WHICH THOUGHTS TO ACT UPON? some kind of intellegence that the thoughts report to?

Yes, there is intelligence, sentience here, responding to stimuli.

Hi, intelligence, what's up?

It's not yours though.

There is no you.

IS THIS TRUE?

[kristian]

Does the experience of belief in a thought require a self?
Does the experience of immersion in thought require a self?

no self is required for any activity of the mind. this is just happening. this was the hang-up. it was assumed that perfect clarity of mind would instantly manifest. yet this may or may not be also a "symptom" of no-self.

There's no one to be untangled, Kristian.

Can you see how even unfreedom has only ever been a thought itself?

yes. the illusion is all in the mind's belief of its own personal identity. therefore the thought of unfreedom has been a result of this.

Yes, there is intelligence, sentience here, responding to stimuli.

Hi, intelligence, what's up?

It's not yours though.

There is no you.

IS THIS TRUE?

omg, how hard the laughter was!!!!!!!!!!!! yes- although it seems strange after all the years of searching and worrying about ego to make such a bold statement- yes it is true. there is no me. there is something- but it's not personal. there are thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. but they don't belong to anyone. nothing really sticks anymore because there is no one to stick to. thoughts still come and appear to stick until they are looked at and then the stickiness just dissolves.

[Damon Kamda]

it was assumed that perfect clarity of mind would instantly manifest. yet this may or may not be also a "symptom" of no-self.

Yes! Clarity simply comes and goes.

yes. the illusion is all in the mind's belief of its own personal identity. therefore the thought of unfreedom has been a result of this.

Haha, perfect! Do you see how incredibly funny (and sad) this is?

omg, how hard the laughter was!!!!!!!!!!!! yes- although it seems strange after all the years of searching and worrying about ego to make such a bold statement- yes it is true. there is no me. there is something- but it's not personal. there are thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. but they don't belong to anyone. nothing really sticks anymore because there is no one to stick to. thoughts still come and appear to stick until they are looked at and then the stickiness just dissolves.

Woo-hoo.

So,

What is enlightenment?
What is real?
What is the self?
How would you 'explain' all of this to a curious friend?

Thanks, kristian.

[kristian]

enlightenment? the realisation of no-self is simply seeing what is actually happening, instead of what is assumed to be happening.

real is what is happening- whatever that may be.

the self (egoic) is an idea of a personal identity assumed to exist somewhere between awareness and body-mind.

i would probably start to probe into their ideas of themselves with them and see how far they are willing to look.

dank je wel! u heeft me veel geholpen!!!

[Damon Kamda]

dank je wel! u heeft me veel geholpen!!!

Graag gedaan, kristian, het was me een genoegen ;-)

Thanks for the answers- I'll ask some fellow guides to come over and have a look, perhaps they'll have some questions.

In the meantime, do you have any questions, uncertainties, doubts you want to adress here?

[kristian]

yes. in my case there was no sonic boom that "cracked it open"... therefore only a subtle shift has taken place through the realisation that everything is simply happening without an ACTUAL me, yet there is still normal busy functioning of mind most of the time and old thought patterns persisting. what about refinement?

[Damon Kamda]

yes. in my case there was no sonic boom that "cracked it open"... therefore only a subtle shift has taken place through the realisation that everything is simply happening without an ACTUAL me, yet there is still normal busy functioning of mind most of the time and old thought patterns persisting. what about refinement?

Well, it's difficult to speak in general terms of what happens "after", because experiences are so vastly different as well as the ideas people tend to have about where to take this, what to *do* with this realisation. When I've got confirmations from others, I'll invite you to a group that specifically deals with refinement and the thought patterns that persist.

This is merely the first step in a much greater journey, kristian, a small step, but a necessary and important one nonetheless.

[kristian]

This is merely the first step in a much greater journey, kristian, a small step, but a necessary and important one nonetheless.

this is my intuitive feeling as well...
thanks again for the required patience and persistance! ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

You're most welcome, kristian.

I've sent you a PM with an invite to that group I mentioned.

We'll be in touch.