Second time here - guidance needed :)

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

lots of thoughts and unconciousness. I

OK, when you are unconscious is the self there? Or is it just awareness?

I mean it's more likely that there is intelligence than the other option. And still don't know what is it exactly, word "instinct" comes to mind in this example. Eg. I am approaching a street, look right, car comes at fast speed, I pull back. No "I" or "self" there, the movement happens automatically.

We can call it whatever we like - intelligence, instinct, awareness, presence, aliveness, God, true nature,
no-self . . . THAT is IT.
So what is IT that causes the body to automatically do those jobs as you cross the road?

Tanya-D wrote:
Great! That's right! Is there a self/I feeling anything in DE?

I meant when you look at DE ONLY, is there a self there?

Independent from what? Experience? It seems that there is nothing outside of experience.

Yes, exactly right! :) So, what does that make you? If there is nothing outside of experience, or separate from expereince . . . .where can the self possibly be?

Still looking.

What are you looking for precisely? Try and describe it with as much detail as possible.

If you need a little longer to get into the questions, then take it. Just let me know :)

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya,

In fact you are right, I'll take a bit more time to see what can I find. See you tomorrow :)


James

[Tanya-D]

:)

Catch you tomorrow.

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya,

I don't know why (is there ever answer to that question?), but for some reason "concentrating" has been really hard for couple of days. Maybe it's because of real life stuff, but that's speculation. In any case, here is something to work with:

OK, when you are unconscious is the self there? Or is it just awareness?

(The situations when there is unconsciousness is eg. when "I" am immersed in thought) I don't know if it's possible to answer this question without speculating, as when unconsciousness is there it's not possible to be conscious (aware, present). "I" cannot be there. Yes, maybe the "intelligence" or awareness is there as instincts still work.

We can call it whatever we like - intelligence, instinct, awareness, presence, aliveness, God, true nature,
no-self . . . THAT is IT.
So what is IT that causes the body to automatically do those jobs as you cross the road?

Still don't know :( Any clues investigating it?

I meant when you look at DE ONLY, is there a self there?

Without content of thought (habitual thoughts that claim so), no.

Yes, exactly right! :) So, what does that make you? If there is nothing outside of experience, or separate from expereince . . . .where can the self possibly be?

Nice limbo we have here, nothing outside experience and no self inside experience :) Which points to no-self at all.

What are you looking for precisely? Try and describe it with as much detail as possible.

Hmm. If "I" stay with just "presence" or DE without thoughts there is no "I".

So what am I looking for? Realization that it might not be "I" or "self" who does the moving, not "I" or "self" who observer or talks.

Thanks,

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James! :)

(The situations when there is unconsciousness is eg. when "I" am immersed in thought) I don't know if it's possible to answer this question without speculating, as when unconsciousness is there it's not possible to be conscious (aware, present). "I" cannot be there. Yes, maybe the "intelligence" or awareness is there as instincts still work.

OK, so you are saying that 'I' comes and goes? If something comes and goes, it cannot be real or permanent, right? Life is permanent. You are always here, even when you are deep in thought. You know you exist.

Tanya-D wrote:
We can call it whatever we like - intelligence, instinct, awareness, presence, aliveness, God, true nature,
no-self . . . THAT is IT.
So what is IT that causes the body to automatically do those jobs as you cross the road?

Still don't know :( Any clues investigating it?

Just look at DE. STOP thinking, and use your eyes, ears, fingertips, nose and tongue to investigate. You are trying to work this out with analytical thought, and Awareness isn't in thought - only a representation of awareness is in thought. A representation is like a photograph. Would you say because you have seen a photograph of the moon, that you are there? :) Your following answers prove you are already doing this right - so just trust using your senses, and less thinking, to 'see'.

Without content of thought (habitual thoughts that claim so), no.

So your answer has just told me that there cannot be any self if there is no thought - and that is absolutely correct! Self is only present inside a thought of self, and thoughts come and go . . .so can self be real if this is so, or is what YOU REALLY ARE this automatic'ness - awareness - aliveness - DE 'real' life thing here?

Nice limbo we have here, nothing outside experience and no self inside experience :) Which points to no-self at all.

YAAAAY!!! Absolutely correct!! And you saw that for yourself!

Hmm. If "I" stay with just "presence" or DE without thoughts there is no "I".

I'm grinning like a proud guide, right now! That is right!! Absolutely right!! That is what staying in the 'now' means - or being aware, or being present, means. That is real life - thought is virtual life.
Real life/DE/awareness/presence IS right here-right now. Virtual life is always in thought story form.
You see now?

So what am I looking for? Realization that it might not be "I" or "self" who does the moving, not "I" or "self" who observer or talks.

It isn't a 'might, it is an 'absolutely'! Your answer is in 'presence'. Staying present as much as you can (not everyone can do it all the time to begin with) IS the realisation, IS the DE, IS awareness, IS life, IS the aliveness, etc.
I told ya it was ordinary! ;)

If you need more time, just let me know :)

Well done!

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya :)

OK, so you are saying that 'I' comes and goes? If something comes and goes, it cannot be real or permanent, right? Life is permanent. You are always here, even when you are deep in thought. You know you exist.

You can put it so well that it sounds obvious :) But yes, life is permanent, whereas "I" thought comes and goes.

so can self be real if this is so, or is what YOU REALLY ARE this automatic'ness - awareness - aliveness - DE 'real' life thing here?

DE is real and thoughts are not, see below.

You see now?

DE and what is actually happening is true. On the other hand there is thought content, labels, stories, but they are all imagined. If I sit here and watch DE, there are sounds, sensations etc, those are true, that is obvious. Whereas all the thought-stories about life, labels, etc, are just imagined, they are clearly not true.

Is it usual that observing it all like watching TV is difficult, I only get the feeling rarely, whereas being in the DE seems easier? Or am I just making some dividing lines that are not even there :)

Thank you,

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

But yes, life is permanent, whereas "I" thought comes and goes.

Perfect!

DE and what is actually happening is true. On the other hand there is thought content, labels, stories, but they are all imagined. If I sit here and watch DE, there are sounds, sensations etc, those are true, that is obvious. Whereas all the thought-stories about life, labels, etc, are just imagined, they are clearly not true.

Well said, James! DE IS real, isn't it? When focused awareness begins observing and attaching to thought, the expereince becomes something else; a representation of an experience. Same as actually eating dinner, and thinking about it. Which one makes you full? :)

Is it usual that observing it all like watching TV is difficult, I only get the feeling rarely, whereas being in the DE seems easier? Or am I just making some dividing lines that are not even there :)

:) Look again - what do you see it as?

So can you see that the concept of self has only ever been a thought now?

You are doing sooooooooo great!

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya :)

I will be away for the weekend. I'll get back to you on Monday :)

Enjoy your weekend!

James

[Tanya-D]

Have a fantastic time!

See you Monday :)

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya,

Well said, James! DE IS real, isn't it? When focused awareness begins observing and attaching to thought, the expereince becomes something else; a representation of an experience. Same as actually eating dinner, and thinking about it. Which one makes you full? :)

Yes, DE is real and representation is not, clear.

Look again - what do you see it as?

Don't quite catch the question :)

So can you see that the concept of self has only ever been a thought now?

Well. To recap couple of days experience:

1) I don't find "I" anywhere in- or outside DE.

2) There are lot of questions concerning everything (eg. what is automaticness, what to do now, what is moral, etc.)

3) Is it expectations or what, but eg. couple of last days felt kind of similar than ever before "embarking to journey". Things happen, thoughts and feelings come and go, at the moment they seem real, it's only after that when things are "quiet" that it is realized that in DE all is fine, that only in thoughts there are problems. In DE there is just writing, in thoughts there are plans, fears, stories, labels. Isn't it crazy how DE is always the same but thoughts change all the time, new fears, new plans, new desires etc.

Heeelp, please :)

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

1) I don't find "I" anywhere in- or outside DE.

2) There are lot of questions concerning everything (eg. what is automaticness, what to do now, what is moral, etc.)

3) Is it expectations or what, but eg. couple of last days felt kind of similar than ever before "embarking to journey". Things happen, thoughts and feelings come and go, at the moment they seem real, it's only after that when things are "quiet" that it is realized that in DE all is fine, that only in thoughts there are problems. In DE there is just writing, in thoughts there are plans, fears, stories, labels. Isn't it crazy how DE is always the same but thoughts change all the time, new fears, new plans, new desires etc.

Heeelp, please :)

That's right; things happen, thoughts arise and fall away, moment by moment Life is Life'ing and changing. There is no self to be found anywhere other than inside a thought story, as you now know.

So now you've seen through what this 'self' actually is, what is left?

What do you want my help with? :)

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya :)

In the spirit of sharing' I went through the gate and would not believe it for several months. Beliefs/conditioning/self-thoughts kept suggesting I hadn't seen really seen it. This was absolutely NOT it! It was so ordinary!? Was this what I'd spent years searching for? What a joke!! :) Eventually that calmed down - it was followed by disappointment for a while because of the expectations, not un-similar to yours that had me wanting something other that what it actually was. This was understood and seen as a story. :) Then I realised that It is just a very simple presence and awareness. That's it!

I guess "I" am here. "Beliefs/conditioning/self-thoughts kept suggesting I hadn't seen really seen it." - spot on. But this "James"... he is not real, he is a thought-story. Story that is sometimes believed and "operated from the viewpoint of" but in the end it's just a bunch of thoughts, a story. Thought says that writing "This is it, there is nothing more to see" is delusional, but what is left to investigate? There is DE, there is life.

What do you want my help with? :)

To look deeper. To understand things :)

Thanks,

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

I guess "I" am here. "Beliefs/conditioning/self-thoughts kept suggesting I hadn't seen really seen it." - spot on. But this "James"... he is not real, he is a thought-story. Story that is sometimes believed and "operated from the viewpoint of" but in the end it's just a bunch of thoughts, a story. Thought says that writing "This is it, there is nothing more to see" is delusional, but what is left to investigate? There is DE, there is life.

:) I know you have a few doubts, but this IS what it IS. IT is very ordinary :) but very relaxed and beautiful too.

To look deeper. To understand things :)

And you can look deeper, but that is not what I can help you with. I'm just a guide to help you see through the illusion of self. There is an LU After-care Group on Facebook which you can join that helps with thoughts, and sticky ideas that can make us feel uncertain. I can say though, that any uncertainty, if you really look, is just in more thought stories. Stories within stories, within stories! :) And you are not stories, you are the Space for them.

So, can you now say with certainty, 'Yup! I have looked everywhere and cannot find a self, therefore I've seen through the illusion?'

If you can, are you ready for some final questions?

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya!

Sorry for late reply, I got mixed of the days. Yes, I can say now that there is no self. So if you got questions, I am ready :)


James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

So, here are 6 questions that we ask everyone to complete. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience.

Please answer the following from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?


Once I get your answers, and have clarified anything I might need to, I'll arrange for you to get access to the LU Aftercare and on Facebook if you wish. This is a very friendly, helpful and supportive forum where you can discuss any issues relating to having seen that there's no separate self, or to look deeper into the experience. Initially, it can be very helpful to talk with others who have also recently gated. So, if you do want to join the Facebook groups, please either let me know your Facebook details here or, if you prefer, PM them to me. One of the administrators will then get in touch with you.

Catch you soon :)

Tanya