The Gate

Are these memories anything other than thoughts arising . . . not being witnessed by 'you', controlled by 'you' or relating to 'you'? What power do they really have?

--The memories are just thoughts arising...like a movie playing. Regarding the sense that there is an "I" witnessing the memories -- this is really getting deeper -- if I think about the memories and at the same time think about the fact that the "I" that is witnessing or thinking about these memories is also just a thought -- that's big. That feels like another big collapse of the whole "I' mental structure. To think that the "I" and the memories are equal -- they are the the same thing -- thoughts arising -- and are equally ephemeral -- the whole thing just goes "poof." I just come back to now and that's all there is. They have no power at all.

Even if the memory suggest a 'you' that lived a life, what choice or control was there in any of it?
Could it possibly have gone any other way?

No choice or control when it is understood that there are no separate anybodies...all of the players in this play of life, like me, had no control tower within them that made choices. As I am, they were...thoughts and behaviors spontaneously arise / arose out of what is / was. What a story about a self we have concocted! Everyone at the time was operating under the belief that they were a separate someone that needed to defend, dominate, capitulate...a someone that won or lost, was victim or controller. Even my father, who we thought of as the "dictator" had absolutely no control over what he did. What lack of compassion we have for these "selves!"

Re: your last set of comments...do yo mean that "no one here mode" can be sort of a device to avoid feeling or avoid something? The metaphor of the stream is beautiful. Letting the feelings be there...as you say, there's no one here to whom they belong...they are a product of who-knows-what...of everything...a by-product of past belief, it appears.

Thank you for your reply, Michelle, and it is lovely to see this new 'seeing' sinking in.
Yes - All these additional little realisations are sprouting for you. Lovely to see ♥
You no-longer need me as a guide.

That feels like another big collapse of the whole "I' mental structure. To think that the "I" and the memories are equal -- they are the the same thing -- thoughts arising -- and are equally ephemeral -- the whole thing just goes "poof." I just come back to now and that's all there is. They have no power at all.

Yes, yes and yes :-) 'POOF' :-D

Re: your last set of comments...do yo mean that "no one here mode" can be sort of a device to avoid feeling or avoid something?

Yes - Avoidance.
If a painful memory appears or you are 'triggered' by someone or an event happening, it would be wrong just to say 'well, there's no-one here to look at that' and attempt to block it out.
We can still communicate and talk normally - We can still look into these things. We just realise the 'true nature' of what is happening. We don't need to dismiss it, or anything else for that matter.

There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process. You sound definitely ready for them.
Ok for me to ask them now?
At this stage, do you have any other questions of areas of uncertainty?

Xain ♥

I don't have any other questions or areas of uncertainty. I see that when the feeling of an "I" arises it is out of habit...and that it will take time for the energy or whatever it is behind this habit to subside. I believe I'm ready for the next questions.

Great stuff, Michelle!

Here are the first of the three main questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

1) No, the separate entity is only an idea...it is a set of ideas and beliefs...thoughts. It's something that only comes into existence if/while I think it into existence. If there isn't a separate self now, there never was...nothing could have happened to it.

2) It doesn't feel THAT different, but I do feel that I am calmer/more relaxed. One day something happened at work that had me anxious. I let the anxiety be there, knowing it would pass -- which is something I have done in the past -- but this time it felt different. It felt more like there was nothing (no one) to which the anxiety could attach. One day this week I spent the day goofing off with a friend because she happened to be free and needed a place to hang out for a while...so we hung out. Normally I would have felt anxious about not getting more done, or doing what I had planned to do, but I really felt free...like I could relax and enjoy the day and no one at all would suffer for it. I'm also more relaxed about the spiritual search. This may be in part because I was reassured by your description of entering the stream (i.e., believing that the conditioning would naturally "wash out" has had a calming effect). But I think I'm also more relaxed about the about the spiritual search because there is less of a sense of someone searching...I think.

3.) I speculate that about mid-way through this guidance, right before you had me go back and read everything over again, I was in a state of resistance...perhaps some reaction from the ego to this guidance. After I went back and read everything over and answered your questions...and I really took my time doing this...the resistance seemed to subside and things started to get moving in the right direction...to sink in more...there was more of an allowing. There were certain things along the way that seemed to have a special impact...for example, the stuff I wrote in capital letters a couple of responses ago. There was also a question you asked that prompted me to think about the fact that the "I" and the story or memories about "I" are one in the same -- they are equally ephemeral because "I" is no more than the memories -- they are all just thought. This was a "wow" for me.

It's something that only comes into existence if/while I think it into existence.

Just to clear up . . . is there a 'you' thinking it?
Does it really 'come into existence' or just appear to?

Here are the last three of the six.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

No, there's not a "me" thinking it...good point...that's an old habit. Thoughts arise spontaneously -- there's no one to think them or not think them.
By coming into existence I mean it --the thought, "I," exists for the length of time the thought exists...thoughts do exist, right?

4.) The illusion of a separate self is the sense that there is a personality -- a solid, permanent entity -- inside each human being that IS who that human being IS. This personality supposedly controls what the human being does and has a permanent/lasting set of characteristics that define it. The illusion is that this self can control what happens through some sort of will that is part of the so-called self. The illusion is that there is something other than what exists in each moment that is apart from what is happening in each moment. Something that can set itself aside and imagine itself to be a separate entity that doesn't change, that has substance. The illusion is that we are somebody who is deserving or not deserving, good or bad, strong or weak, etc., etc. The illusion is that there is some one -- some entity -- to which things happen, that "has" feelings, to which experiences belong / accumulate / attach.

I'll do 5 and 6 tomorrow...getting late...mind getting tired...

5.) Decisions - to the best of my understanding through direct experience, things just happen...sometimes my behavior aligns with what appears to have been a decision that "I" made. But more and more, since I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what I should DO, things just happen and there isn't even the appearance of a decision having been made by me that led to the thing happening. So, I sometimes make a list of stuff to do each morning, which seems like I've decided to do those things. But what compelled me to write those things on the list? Probably it came from: my mind's conditioning about what one "should" do; innate instincts that are natural to a human being (as in what we need to do to survive), influences from the environment in which this human being operates, and maybe some kind of guidance that comes from somewhere -- I'm not sure where -- something metaphysical?

Intention: Intention seems to come from the mind because intentions come into awareness in the form of thoughts. Sometimes intention has a lot of feeling with it, too....like a knowingness of some kind ... knowing that this is the direction to move in. Various levels of determination and commitment -- or energy -- come along with intention. One can have thoughts about why he/she is determined or committed, but those can't be trusted to be the true.

Free will: There is freedom to just be, and to not be encumbered by the mind, but that requires realization that you are not the mind and there is no self that must be protected. Free will as in free will of the mind...that doesn't exist...that would suggest there is someone to have free will. Who has it?

Choice and control: Same as free will...who is it that would make a choice? Control things? There is no one to do so.Things happen and then we think about it and think that we did it / made it happen, but we didn't...because there's no "I" to do it.

What am I responsible for?
If there's no "I" how can "I" be responsible for anything? There just is what is in this moment. And if all causes and conditions in the world lead to me behaving in one way that might be considered "responsible" in this society, well then that's what happens. And if all causes and conditions lead me to behave in another way that would not be considered "responsible" in this society, then that's what happens.

will continue response to this question later...will add some examples...have run out of time.

So to continue..."What makes things happen?"

I don't know. As I said above, seems like a combination of mind conditioning, innate instincts, physical factors/how the body is doing/feeling physically, emotions that arise, and maybe something metaphysical/unknown that comes into play. It may be that electrons colliding on a quantum level is what ultimately influences what happens on the perceptual level. There could be different forms of energy with different charges and levels of intensity that interact. I'm recalling the instruction you gave me to raise left or right hand. I can't tell you what made me decide left v. right or vice versa or when to actually raise the hand. It just happened. I had thoughts about doing it, but then I just kept my awareness on the present moment and then one thing or the other happened. It could be randomness (especially in the case of simple things like the hand-raising).

6. I still get a feeling of being somebody...lately it's been in the form of getting pleasure out of feeling/thinking that I am good at what I do (hospice social work) and that my colleagues recognize that and think I'm good at it, too. In this case there would have to be a "me" who is good at something and can feel good about it. I tell myself there isn't. I'm just curious as to why that pops up. I'm sure there are other types of ego that pop up for me, too. For example, I recently treated the dean of the business school I went to with a lot more deference that I treat anyone else. What's that about? I think it was in part because I wanted something from her and that's the only reason I was talking to her...that changes everything for me...wanting something. In that interaction it felt like there was a someone -- a me -- who wanted/needed something from a someone else -- the dean.

There only other thing I would like to say is that I would like to talk about where to go from here...I would really like to glean as much guidance from you as possible with regard to moving from this point forward toward deeper realization.

Thank you!

Let's look at a few things you mentioned. Please examine these questions deeply, and answer them one by one:

The illusion of a separate self is the sense that there is a personality -- a solid, permanent entity -- inside each human being that IS who that human being IS..

Are you a human being?

But more and more, since I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what I should DO, things just happen and there isn't even the appearance of a decision having been made by me that led to the thing happening.

So . .. if you DO spend a lot of time thinking about it, things DON'T just happen. Is that right?

But what compelled me to write those things on the list?

There was a 'you' writing a list . . . yes?

influences from the environment in which this human being operates

I am interested why you have chosen to use the term 'human being' now. Where does it fit in?

Intention: Intention seems to come from the mind because intentions come into awareness in the form of thoughts.

Please describe the link between 'intention' and 'thought' - It is not clear to me how you are making the link.

There is a thought.
There is an apparent 'intention'.
How does one create the other?
Also, what has an 'intention' to do something?

Xain ♥

Am I a human being?

I'm using the term, "human being," as interchangeable with, "body-mind," or "organism," and I really don't know why I started using that term now. I honestly don't know why that term came to mind. "Mind-body" is the most accurate, succinct term I can come up with for what I'm talking about. Right now thoughts are occurring...arising from somewhere (due to conditioning, there's the automatic reflex of thinking the thoughts come from my mind, but I have no reliable way of knowing where they come from). There is the thought, "I," ...there is that thought that the entity that is aware of or is perceiving the thoughts is the same body-mind that is typing right now. This body-mind has been named and categorized by scientists as "human being," as compared to other types of body-minds that exist. "I" is a thought, an idea, a concept without evidence of any substance...so I can't be a human being ... or anything else for that matter. It seems accurate to say that the living entity that perceives and is aware of the "I" thought is a human being.

So . .. if you DO spend a lot of time thinking about it, things DON'T just happen. Is that right?

No...that's not what I what I meant to say. I'm not really sure how things are different when I do spend a lot of time thinking about what I should do vs. don't spend a lot of time thinking about what I should do. The energy of that thinking, the influence those thoughts have on pre-existing thought and behavior patterns, and the fact that I'm caught up in thinking during that time vs. just being or doing something else, probably has some influence on what happens. But, spending a lot of time thinking about what I should do does not mean that I have more control of what happens or that that thinking directly leads me to do what those thoughts might be saying I should do. In fact, i've had the experience of thoughts that I should do one thing and then I do the opposite. Thoughts come and go. But, some thoughts seem to take over attention / awareness...they seem to have enough power or intensity to absorb all of the attention or awareness within this body-mind, so that there is no awareness of the fact that these thoughts are separate entities that come and go. The thoughts have taken over. At these times the thoughts seem to have control of the body-mind, but I don't think that's true. They have control over -- or have "sucked up" all the attention/awareness -- but they don't have control over what I do. Behavior seems more automatic, more involuntary when thought has taken over all awareness, but the levers that actually influence behaviors...I don't know what they are.

There was a 'you' writing a list . . . yes?

I think I wrote "I" in that sentence with awareness that I was using "I" as a conventionality. But it's really good to check on that! This is the kind of thing that makes me question just how deep my realization goes...I'm sure there are many times throughout the day when I automatically have the feeling and the belief that I am doing something. No, no "I" or separate self wrote the list. The body-mind wrote the list. It's still kind of freaky for me to take this in. The fact that there's no "I" writing my "to do" list -- that is really grabbing me. "I" have been all about the to-do list "my" entire life. The "to do" list is like the ultimate symbol of the idea that someone is in control. Wow. This is really giving rise to thoughts that there is absolutely no point in giving any attention or worry or credence to any thoughts about what I did or didn't do, should be doing, or should plan to do. It's kind of hard to believe, honestly, that everything just arises in the moment, but that is the truth. It's very liberating, but takes some getting used to. What arises in this moment leads to what arises in the next moment and if one realizes this that also influences what happens because the body-mind is more allowing, more open, more relaxed... To be honest, fear arises with this thought that everything is just happening...the thought arises, "Then what should I do?" It's like this "I" concept is still floating around thinking that it's real and that it needs to do something...something is holding onto something...some aspect of mind or set of ideas wants to hold onto the "I" concept...that's the feeling of it.

Please describe the link between 'intention' and 'thought' - It is not clear to me how you are making the link.
There is a thought.
There is an apparent 'intention'.
How does one create the other?
Also, what has an 'intention' to do something?

Maybe it would be good to consider what "intention" is. What is an intention? An intention could be defined narrowly as a thought of wanting to do something or of wanting to generate a certain outcome. Actually, the definition I was using in my previous answer was broader than that, I think. I was thinking of an intention as a thought + emotion that gives energy or intensity to the thought. It also occurred to me that an intention could be thought of as something that comes from a deeper, unknown source... like some kind of pull, gravitational force or "whole body" or energetic force that really can't be directly understood at my level of realization. In this case, the intention would sort of take over the body-mind. But I want to be clear that I'm just speculating about this kind of intention.

Intention could also be thought of as a thought to do something + determination. In this case, there's no such thing as an intention because there's no such thing as determination. Determination implies there is someone who is determined. This is so radical in this society because determination is this prized characteristic...it's laughable, really, to think how much value is placed on this characteristic that is completely non-existent. What is it that makes someone seem to be determined or some act appear to be an act of determination? I guess it's the physical make-up or attributes of that body-mind combined with conditioning or beliefs that have formed over time combined with everything else that is happening at the time. One what have to ask what is it that generates the perception in other people's minds that something was caused by "determination" -- oh boy! I better stop now. This is the whole thing, right? I'm going in circles. One final comment: Determination is a concept, a thought...that's all.

How does thought create intention and/or how does intention create thought?
So, if "determination" is just a concept made up by people who think they are separate selves, then "intention" is also just a concept made up by people who think they are separates selves. It's irrelevant with the realization that there are no separate selves. I'm also thinking about desire, though. Desire would seem to be in the same category of terms as intention and determination. But desire has the connotation of something felt in the body, something innate...something genetically programmed...although some desires may be this way (AKA "drives") and some may be created as a result of conditioning of the mind. So, intention, determination and desires could be the label would put on drives that are innate...that are involuntary...that are programmed in us evolutionarily...then an "I" comes along and thinks that it is the driver of the drives...ha!

What has an intention to do something?
Well, there's no "I" that has an intention to do something. The concept, "I", that may think it is real, may be followed by the thought "intend" and may think that it can intend to do something but these are all just thoughts. The concept, "I," imagines that it can do something or intend to do something.

I'm a little bit lost now on how to proceed. Your last reply with 100% mental analysis.
The questions I asked could have been answered with one sentence.

The problem MAY be caused by you trying to write answers in a different way after the realisation.
No special language or change of way of communicating is needed.

I'll try my best to break what you said down into some manageable questions.

It seems accurate to say that the living entity that perceives and is aware of the "I" thought is a human being.

Did we not cover thoughts?
Sorry if I missed that one out - Let's do it now:

Exercise: Think a thought - Any thought will do.

Do this exercise as many times as possible and each time, examine the experience for an answer.
What do you find that created that thought?
Does the thought have an owner that can be found?
What is aware of that thought? Can what is aware of it be found?

Is there any control over thoughts at all?

I am unsure about your phrase 'perceives' - If this relates to the senses, and there is still a belief that a living entity is 'performing' the senses, please go back and do the exercises on 'seeing' etc and try to find what is doing the perceiving.

Xain ♥

I'm confused because you keep asking the questions and I've already answered them so I think you are looking for more/something else. It's also a little confusing because sometimes we are using conventional speech and other times no-self speech and it's not always clear which is being used.

That said, Yes, thoughts were covered. The thoughts arise and there is no understanding of where they come from or what created them. They just appear. The source can't be identified or known. No, the thought doesn't have any owner. Although, to be honest, the habit of thinking that the thoughts are "mine," even if they appeared out of nowhere, is still present some of the time when ordinary life is happening (i.e., outside of this guidance)

What is aware of the thought? Awareness.
Can it be found? No, it seems to just be...it just is....it can't be found in the sense that it is a separate thing that can be defined...

No, there's no control over thoughts...that is completely clear.

Perceiving: Seeing is just happening...hearing is just happening...taste it just happening...touch is just happening...nobody is doing the perceiving..."perceiving" isn't a good word because it implies that someone is doing it. Again, to be honest, out of habit, when I'm not focused on understanding direct experience as in this guidance, there is a subtle sense that objects are being perceived by this organism/mind-body...that the mind is "doing" it vs. it just being what is.

Hi Michelle

The final six questions are for other guides to assess that you've 'seen'. Also, it can give further indications if there are any sticky areas.

I think I wrote "I" in that sentence with awareness that I was using "I" as a conventionality. But it's really good to check on that! This is the kind of thing that makes me question just how deep my realization goes

Exactly - And it is the reason why these additional questions are important. I am trying to assess how deep your realisation is.

No change of language is needed - I will understand what you mean.
Things can be 'a bit tricky' at the end. For the purposes of communication, we still need to assume an 'I' being guided by someone else - An 'I' that has had a realisation . . . whilst realising that this is simply the apparent passing of thoughts and ideas.

Please answer with what is clear to you from this realisation only. Put all scientific explanations and previous non-dual concepts and study to one-side for the moment unless it is completely necessary (for example, you still hold the belief that you are a human being which is separate to other human beings).

For question four, you said that the separate self was 'inside' a human being.
Is this right? Is this what you meant?
If so, are there lots of separate human beings (you being one) all with separate selves inside them?

sometimes my behaviour aligns with what appears to have been a decision that "I" made

If it is clear for you that 'things just happen', what is the 'I' that has a behaviour that aligns with that happening?

But what compelled me to write those things on the list? Probably it came from: my mind's conditioning about what one "should" do; innate instincts that are natural to a human being

If it is clear for you that 'things just happen', who or what is ever compelled?

Another guide has asked the question "Can you please explain what this 'awareness' is. How does it appear?"

Xain ♥

For question four, you said that the separate self was 'inside' a human being.
Is this right? Is this what you meant?
If so, are there lots of separate human beings (you being one) all with separate selves inside them?

--I think you are referring to this part of my answer for Q. 4: "The illusion of a separate self is the sense that there is a personality -- a solid, permanent entity -- inside each human being that IS who that human being IS." So, no I did not mean to say there is a separate self inside of human beings...I was saying that this is an illusion...that there is no separate self inside of human being / a body-mind.

If it is clear for you that 'things just happen', what is the 'I' that has a behaviour that aligns with that happening?

--The body-mind is what has a behavior. I put the "I" in quotes to indicate that it is an illusion. The point I was trying to make is that if a thought arises, e.g., "I need to go to the grocery store now," and then a trip to the grocery store is made right away, it appears that the thought led to the behavior, but that's just appearance. The opposite sometimes happens...the thought to do something arises and then the opposite things is done. Thought from this mind doesn't make this body-mind behave in a certain way. I don't know the factors that make a behavior occur. And, to be clear, thoughts with the subject, "I," still arise, although more and more consistently questioning of the I-thought occurs whenever it arises. But it still arises, especially if the mind is distracted from the present moment.

If it is clear for you that "things just happen," who or what is ever compelled?

--What I meant was, what caused this body-mind to physically go to the white board and write a list. I didn't mean to suggest there is a separate self that can be influenced to do something.

Another guide has asked the question "Can you please explain what this 'awareness' is. How does it appear?"

--Do you mean from this sentence: "I think I wrote "I" in that sentence with awareness that I was using "I" as a conventionality. But it's really good to check on that! This is the kind of thing that makes me question just how deep my realization goes." If the other guide is asking about my use of the term, "awareness" in this sentence, then what I meant was that I used the term, "I," knowing that there is no, "I," or separate self, and knowing that I was just using the term as a convenience with quotes indicating that "I" is just an idea.