Entering

[JonathanR]

Hi Be,

Thanks for your reply. You seem to see already that 'Past and Future' are ideas and that really 'now' is all that is ever experienced. (Although Longchempa goes further than this to ask how can there even be 'present'?).

Do you feel you have seen through the illusion of 'self'?

Love,

Jon

[Beroca69]

Hi Jon,
it's as though there was never an illusion to see through.
And no 'self' to see through it. It's like it has been there in each moment. This is deeply heartfelt.

Yet there is still planning and thinking and doing and having preferences even though there is this understanding.

I'll look into Longchempa to see what that means.

Thank you for this journey together.
Does it stop here?

Love,
Be

[JonathanR]

Hi Be

it's as though there was never an illusion to see through. 
And no 'self' to see through it. It's like it has been there in each moment. This is deeply heartfelt.
Yet there is still planning and thinking and doing and having preferences even though there is this understanding. 

Yes. All the stuff carries on happening but is it possible to find a 'doer' that 'makes things happen?' A 'decider', a 'chooser'? (This can be more tricky at first than not finding 'self'....)

I'll look into Longchempa to see what that means. 

If you look at the experience labeled 'time' is it possible to find 'now'? Perhaps 'time' gets superimposed as a kind of tape-measure of duration. Do you think there is a habit of wrapping this thought structure around experience and then the idea that everything happening is somehow 'contained within time'?

Thank you for this journey together. 
Does it stop here?

You are very welcome. Not just yet. I'd like to ask you six questions that we always ask at about this point? Then I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at our thread and they may or may not get back to us with further questions of their own. Two of the questions you have already answered but please could you answer them once again in this context?


Love
Jon.

[Beroca69]

Hi I don't find that there is a 'doer' as such at all. There are thoughts and conceptual thinking but in directly experiencing no doer as such.

About time. . there is now. And now. And now.
Thinking about time gives a sense of time flowing by. But in now there is spaciousness. Like time and space are one?

This doesn't make logical sense to the physicist in me.

About 25 years ago some words popped into my head saying
There is a point in time and space
where nothing is coincidence and everything makes sense.
It gives me hope thinking about this now.

You say that one could wrap a thought structure of time around experience and this gives it a sense of duration. And we do this. But time itself does not exist to be experienced directly. At least not apart from a conceptual sense of it. Or does it? Personally, in direct experience there is no sense of the duration of time. What do others find when they explore this?

I'm quite tired right now so I hope the words are accurate enough.

Best wishes,
Be

[JonathanR]

Hi Be,

But time itself does not exist to be experienced directly. At least not apart from a conceptual sense of it. Or does it?

It doesn't seem so does it? Not from right here, right now? And yet we can hardly deny the appearance of time absolutely for exactly the reason you have given. There is a conceptual sense of it which appears to bestow a sequence of 'past, present and future' to experience, doesn't it? Just as there are thoughts in which a 'self' 'does' things and 'chooses' and 'decides' things. There is an illusion. Could we say then that 'time' and 'self' both exist and do not exist?

Personally, in direct experience there is no sense of the duration of time. What do others find when they explore this?

Yes, (this is 'my' experience too). Whatever others find, whatever ideas might appear in teachings about non-duality for example, (or, actually, any other 'subject' you can think of), whatever 'experts' might say, the true discoveries are yours. It's your looking, your realisaton. Do you see the importance of this? It's the only thing that can be trusted not to lead in the direction of theories? This is why we almost always ask questions in guiding and really avoid trying to 'tell' people the 'answers'.


Best wishes,

Jon

[Beroca69]

Hi,
I wasn't able to reply yesterday as it was quite a busy day and long day (But I got a long report done and went to a puja in the evening so it was lovely too).

Could we say then that 'time' and 'self' both exist and do not exist?

They exist conceptually, but when there is a direct exploration of them, they do not exist.

the true discoveries are yours

Yes, I do see that this is the case, and understand the importance of this.. otherwise you are forever trusting others' theories and it is disempowering. I was curious to find out what others may have noticed too.

I'd like to ask you six questions that we always ask at about this point? Then I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at our thread and they may or may not get back to us with further questions of their own.

I look forward to exploring this further.. it's really helpful. Many thanks.

Best wishes,
Be

[JonathanR]

Hello Be,

My apologies for not posting yesterday. I was working late.

Yes, I do see that this is the case, and understand the importance of this.. otherwise you are forever trusting others' theories and it is disempowering. I was curious to find out what others may have noticed too

I think there will be plenty of opportunity to find out what others have noticed but we tend to keep the focus here very much on direct pointing and looking. But there is a growing community of those who have gone through the gate which we may discuss shortly.

I'd like to ask you six questions that we always ask at about this point? Then I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at our thread and they may or may not get back to us with further questions of their own.

I look forward to exploring this further.. it's really helpful. Many thanks.

OK, great. We'll do that shortly.

Just rereading our conversation, I wonder if I can ask you something?

You mentioned that you are a physicist or at least 'the physicist in me'? And your interest in Neurons and brain science. This is what you said earlier on:

I went on to talk about the neuroscience behind it as this is
an area that has positive associations for me...... Positive sensations arise in the body
when the mind comes across new information

and..

The sensations of the 'brain' are delocalised and expereinced
around the whole being.

You say that sensations of the brain are delocalised and experienced around the whole being? Does it seem as though this is true?


Love,

Jon.

[Beroca69]

HI Jon,
I am realising more and more about this approach.. as you say:

we tend to keep the focus here very much on direct pointing and looking

As we have been going through this, it has been easier to deepen into "direct pointing and looking" and use this framework to respond to the questions. You ask about something I said in a previous post:

you say that sensations of the brain are delocalised and experienced around the whole being? Does it seem as though this is true?

In terms of direct pointing and looking then this is not "true" as there is no direct experience of "brain". There are sensations, always changing, some intense, some mild and there is the awareness of the "space" and "time" from which these arise, but looking more and more directly at this there is a sense of there being no "time" and nothingness/ infinite spaciousness and awareness.

Conceptually, this could be described as a sense of being delocalised throughout space and time.

Simultaneously, keeping focusd on direct pointing and looking, there is no "being" of which to speak.

Love,
Be

[JonathanR]

Hi Be,



Great to read your post.

. Conceptually, this could be described as a sense of being delocalised throughout space and time.

It could, though can this truly immediate experience be named, as such? Is language adequate, or conceptualisation?


Here are the first three of the six questions I promised. I have actually asked you the first two in the course of conversation but I'd be very grateful if you would answer these again so that your answers will appear in sequence together? It'll make it easier for the guides to look through. Thanks.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

Love,

Jonathan.

[Beroca69]

Hi Jon,
Here are some answers to the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no seperate 'self', 'me', or 'I' at all anywhere and there never was.. Now you ask.. thre has never been a separate self as such that may be directly experience. And there is a sense of having always known this too.

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of seperate self.. perceiving a mist.. the 'separateness' as a mist, of 'conceptualisations'. And the 'forgetting' or a kind of numbing or fading (or narrowing) of awareness and this appears to result in a sense of separateness that does not exist, except through a kind of 'obscuring' of the directly experiencing.

There is the experience.. then the emerging of a 'conceptualising' of the experience.. something like that is the start of the 'illusion of the separate self'.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

How does it feel to see this.. there is a sense of it beign refreshing to have someone to talk to about it. It feels liberating. It feels awesome. It feels mysterious. In the past few days.. it (the experience of this) is supporting a deepening in the meditation practice., like there is another 'perspective' or 'dimension' to experience in which time and space coincide. Words seem clumsy to describe this.

And the present is now, only now.. so it's a little odd reflecting on memories of the past few days, when there is a depth and richness right here and now.

Hope that you are all well.

All the best,
warmly,
Be

[JonathanR]

Yes Be, very well, especially on reading those answers. Thank you!

Here are the second lot. Once you have answered these we can take a look at what you have written.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love,

Jon.

[Beroca69]

Hi Jon,
Was quite busy yesterday and teaching in the evening (yoga class and meditation by the way).

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Hmm the last bit that pushed me over.. hard to say when there has never been a sense of separate self. I think in my teens I started to 'wake up' and notice things. I'd found a story about meditation and it described the practices, so I started trying them out from when I was about 11 years old. And there were moments when there was all oneness and the sense of separate self would dissolve. What made me look... there wasn't really anything. There wasn't really a 'me' to look. More like it all just happenened as a consequence of sitting still and repeatedly turning the attention to 'seeing' the wall in front of me, as it was in the now.

But looking further back, there were some moments when I was about 4 or 5 years old, I would simply sit and be still and time would be one and there was a simple sense of harmony with all - the whole of everything, sky, earth, the house. All the time I didn't really understand, but then the thoughts and imaginative thinking would click into gear and I would be off, making something with lego, playing with dolls or whatever I had been doing. But I guess I did not realise this as being anything unusual (though my sister and brother didn't really want to sit still with me, they'd just nick the lego when I did.. it was really funny, looking back.. and I stopped because I didn't enjoy finding less and less lego in front of me).

But more recently.. I'm thinking.. even now, the bit about "what makes you look" is intriguing it's a bit like a compulsion.. there doesn't seem to be much intent in the process. Like someones says notice 'green' and so 'green' moves into focus, but equally, the spaces in between the 'green' are also there in the experience - it all simply 'is'. So it is with this.. there is 'conceptual' and though directly experiencing, here and now, it all 'is'.

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Good question.. do 'I' decide, intend, choose... etc.
'I' am never sure about this one. There is a sense of uncertainty about the quality of 'I' in this question.
There is a sense of time, driving conceptual 'I' forward into decisions, choices, etc..
But in terms of this core 'thing' (the 'me') that 'makes anything happen', there is a lack of certainty about this - a quality of emptiness and 'nothingness' about this in awareness.

6) Anything to add?

Only that I hope that this makes some sense? It may seem like I am avoiding the question at some level, but repeated you have clarified that we are talking at the level of 'directly experiencing' not really conceptualising. At a level of conceptualising it is easy to say "Yes it is 'I' that decides that X, Y and Z will happen." and there is the illusion of separateness, the separate 'I' that 'wills' X, Y and Z into being. But going a little deeper, as it were stepping into a place of 'now', with simplicity and honesty, that there is this 'I' only comes with a resonating sense of nothingness - that the 'nothingness' is the 'truth' of it (the 'I') as it were.

Looking forward to continuing this exploration.

Love, Be x

[JonathanR]

Hi Be,

Good question.. do 'I' decide, intend, choose... etc.
'I' am never sure about this one. There is a sense of uncertainty about the quality of 'I' in this question.
There is a sense of time, driving conceptual 'I' forward into decisions, choices, etc..
But in terms of this core 'thing' (the 'me') that 'makes anything happen', there is a lack of certainty about this - a quality of emptiness and 'nothingness' about this in awareness.

OK, thanks for your answers. We need to take a closer look at the issues arising in question 5.
Let's look at 'choice' and 'decision' directly.

So far a 'self' or 'me' has not been found when looked for. Or is it more accurate to say that 'self' is found, but as a thought only?

It's not so different with 'chooser' and 'decider'.

Place both hands on a table in front of you. You are about to raise one in the air but not the other one. Now notice the exact point at which one arm is chosen to be lifted. If choice happens it must be possible to find this point of choice. Is there an entity 'choosing'? ...

...Nevertheless an arm is raised.

Same with 'decision'. Do I 'decide' to drive to the next town? It may seem so but then why is there an experience of hardly noticing anything about how the driving has been happening? (Many of the details of this trip seem to have happened automatically). Did I decide to place key in ignition, to check mirrors, to pull out, to accelerate, to negotiate traffic, to buy petrol? Or did this all just flow, just happen, and then thought assumed 'I decided'?

Warm regards,

Jon.

[Beroca69]

HI Jon,
I tried out the raising one arm exercise on two occasions, once last night and again this morning. I noticed that each time the left arm raised and just before it did there was a surge of additional light/ energy/ Ki immediately before the thought to raise the left arm. I wondered why the left arm each time and realised that the flow of Ki to the left arm is still slightly easier than the right (and that the right arm is still got residual blockage from a bike accident many years ago when that arm protected me from a head injury)... anyway, I digress.. but that was essentially the train of thought.

So back to the moment of the decision to go left or right... as the hands pause, there is an increase in the Ki in each arm and then between the hands, then connecting to the universe and then, a sudden surge in the left hand and then a thought "lift left hand" and then it rises.

But what directed the Ki, just before the thought? I wonder.

My only guess is that there must be the unconscious thought processes underlying the impulse that preceed the decision becoming conscious.
So where do these decisions come from, I wonder?

And I go through the day making masses of decisions, from getting up, to choosing a font for a report I'm writing, to the clothes to wear.. and all I can say is that these have arisen (like the choice to lift the left arm) from patterns, and habits, and past decisions (and events, like the bike accident) made in the past and a lot seems to be habitual and not readily in conceptual awareness.

So back to the decision point.. and turning awareness to seek a supposed source of the decision making, and there is simply a bundle of impulses, needs, from the tummy sensations of digestion, to the blood streaming around, fingers moving typing.. there seems to be a multitude of "deciders" and seeking to find some "I" or "self" as a coordinator of these decisions, I can't.. in fact even saying "I" in the last sentence is short-hand for "multitude of impulses, throughs, sensations, etc." Giving this (wonderful, amazing) "composite of being" a name, address, face, body etc still doesn't create an "I", only in theory, in conceptualisation, only as a thought.

In terms of directly experiencing one.. there is simply nothingness, vast openess, a nowness and the continual sense of time, another construct leadings to experience of Ki flowing and imulses arising and passing away and thoughts.. more constructs.

Or did this all just flow, just happen, and then thought assumed 'I decided'?

Does thought assume "I decided"?
I agree it does all just flow, and happne and as a shorthand, like I will say "I did this" or "I went to the ..." etc. Because that is a conventional way of talking and it saves time. Sometimes, if there is more time, I may explain that there is a connection (within the body or outside or both simultaneously) and from the deeper connection comes impulses and from the impulses come inspirational thoughts and images that guided actions throughout the day and for which there is a deep gratitude and awe, which further reinforces this habit of the awareness being guided towards this sense of connection.
Sometimes the mind wanders from one thought to the other and the thought arise "where is the attention?" and following this is a remembering to connect and the Ki flows into the centre of the body, fills the body and expands into "connection". So it is, over and over and from this, decisions arise, "I" get one with working, eating, sleeping, running, writing, getting bills paid, sustaining friendships, creating reports, poetry etc.
So it does all just flow, just happen and in a shorthand way, a thought arises that "I decided" and the left hand moves.

WEll, that was a long answer!

Love, Be

[JonathanR]

Hi Be,

But what directed the Ki, just before the thought? I wonder.

That's an interesting question, isn't it?

My only guess is that there must be the unconscious thought processes underlying the impulse that preceed the decision becoming conscious.

Why?

And I go through the day making masses of decisions, from getting up, to choosing a font for a report I'm writing, to the clothes to wear..
and all I can say is that these have arisen (like the choice to lift the left arm) from patterns, and habits, and past decisions

Can this be seen happening? Can patterns, habits and past decisions be seen doing deciding? In experience, can they be seen causing decisions?

. Sometimes the mind wanders from one thought to the other and the thought arise "where is the attention?" and following this is a remembering to connect and the Ki flows into the centre of the body, fills the body and expands into "connection". So it is, over and over and from this, decisions arise, "I" get one with working, eating, sleeping, running, writing, getting bills paid, sustaining friendships, creating reports, poetry etc.
So it does all just flow, just happen and in a shorthand way, a thought arises that "I decided" and the left hand moves.

I need to understand what you are saying here. There seems to be a repeated idea of something (in this case decisions) arising from something else or from a combination of other causes? If that is what you are saying, how is it known?

Decisions must be caused (by something) is only an issue where it is believed that decisions are really 'being made'. Not only can we not find a 'self' that 'does' this but isn't it possible to notice that decisions often 'happen' without any decider being present? Do you see?



Love

Jon.