Another guide please

[Armstrong]

'if I go on a yoga education I want to go for some time, like 2 or 3 months and really have some good work done. Where is the money coming from? I haven't got that sort of money. We don't even know how much it will cost yet! Let's go to Thailand, rent a home for about £100 month. I need flight money as well, that's 400 .... then i need to eat, but if i stay somewhere with a little kitchen I won't have to eat out all the time.
What time of year can I get away - what with the classes we've just started. Hmm, I could time it to work with the workshops I want to do and with some more of the yoga levels. Or I could go to that one about the spiritual heart?

When they aren't seen as thoughts they lead to an impression of an 'I' existing, directing things. So it furthers the idea that I exist, that there is an 'I'.

Imagine you didn't experience those thoughts up there, but that it was someone else, like say, a close friend.

Would

What is the body in direct experience?

[Armstrong]

Ooops - the question was:

Imagine you didn't experience those thoughts up there, but that it was someone else, like say, a close friend -- would you really characterize the thoughts as an "I" that exists and directs things? Isn't there something else that's a bit obvious about the "I" in these thoughts?

Also, what is the body in direct experience? You did some exercises and answered them, but if you put it all together and try to look at the body, could you please say what is it like?

[Armstrong]

If you look at your thoughts, there's a bunch of needing, having and wanting.

If you talk to a friend about that, you and he "know" what you mean if you say, "I need", "I have" or "I want".

But what does that mean, in terms of your direct experience?

[marka]

Hmm. I don't know what you are asking!

Imagine you didn't experience those thoughts up there, but that it was someone else, like say, a close friend -- would you really characterize the thoughts as an "I" that exists and directs things?

If I was chatting to a friend and they said all of that, I wouldn't even be thinking about or looking for the 'I'. It is just 'them' speaking about something they want to plan - so I guess that's what I would characterize their thoughts as - they were speaking about plans.

I'm not sure I get what you're asking!

Isn't there something else that's a bit obvious about the "I" in these thoughts?

I don't know what you're getting at here!

f you look at your thoughts, there's a bunch of needing, having and wanting.

If you talk to a friend about that, you and he "know" what you mean if you say, "I need", "I have" or "I want".

But what does that mean, in terms of your direct experience?

In my direct experience, I just experience hearing (a voice in my head, talking to myself), some visual images representing the things I'm thinking about, maybe some feeling or sensation.

Again, I don't think I'm understanding what you are getting at here.

It's quite frustrating!

Also, what is the body in direct experience? You did some exercises and answered them, but if you put it all together and try to look at the body, could you please say what is it like?

Still feeling loads of frustration .... and thoughts: that I can't get it, that I'm not bright enough, that I ssooo want to 'get it' .....

Hmm. I',m not sure I'm too good at spotting the obvious!

But I'll try - the body in direct experience is just a series of felt senses, touches. With no real separation between where it ends and the rest of reality (i.e. clothes, environment) begin - there is just more sensation i.e. aware of temperature change on arm and slight pressure (that would be a slight, cooling breeze.)

I don't know if this is what you are asking, I'm not sure I'm really understanding.

(oh, and thought just created an image of having to do a load more exercises, followed by a feeling of despair and 'oh no, I'm going to be on this bit for ever'!)

[Armstrong]

Nothing tricky.

I thought that your dialog featured an I that needs, has (owns) and wants, rather than an I that directs, controls, etc.

It might be useful if you looked at what needing, having and wanting is like in direct experience, and see if it corresponds to the narrative.

Eg in direct experience, what is needing, having and wanting? How does that match up with the narrative?

If you have the thought, "I need that", is it true? What would that mean in direct experience?

So about the body - there's sensing or feeling. No feeler, right? Is there anything outside of thought that tells you the sensations are necessarily personal? Is there anything outside thought that tells you that what you feel are "your" feelings? Try the same for sound and sight.

[marka]

Ah. In DE there is no 'having', no owning, things just are, one moment from the next.
I imagine the same is so for needing and wanting - they do not exist - although quite how I actually have an experience of this in DE I am not sure!

[Armstrong]

OK. So if there's "needing", what is that like? And is there an "I"that needs things?

If there's "wanting", what is that like? Is there an "I" that wants things?

And please answer,

So about the body - there's sensing or feeling. No feeler, right? Is there anything outside of thought that tells you the sensations are necessarily personal? Is there anything outside thought that tells you that what you feel are "your" feelings? Try the same for sound and sight.

[marka]

Needing - its like thoughts and feelings together to create the illusion of need. There is no 'I' that needs things. Just mind trying to convince.

Wanting is very similar, almost identical. And no, there is no 'I' that actually wants things. Same as above.

So about the body - there's sensing or feeling. No feeler, right? Is there anything outside of thought that tells you the sensations are necessarily personal? Is there anything outside thought that tells you that what you feel are "your" feelings? Try the same for sound and sight.

Nothing outside thought that tells its personal, no.
Nothing outside thought that tells me what i feel are 'my' feelings, no.

Sight:
Just see images. Objects. Things. No ownership of them - nothing to tell me, outside thought, they are 'mine'.

Sound:
Same. Just sounds. Not 'mine'.

Now I get what you were getting at! Thanks for breaking all that down. I agree: 'nothing tricky'!

[Armstrong]

OK, so can you experience this stuff in your daily life? E.g. bodily sensations are impersonal? Or the fact that the bodily sensations change depending on what activity you are doing?

So here is a new exercise. Please try this one (I cribbed it from here, down the page http://www.headless.org/experiments/the-mirror.htm ):

Try this: point back at yourself whilst looking in a mirror.
The person in the mirror is pointing back at their face.
What is your finger - this side of the mirror - pointing at?
A face or space?

So the finger is pointing at you. But what are you? Are you the thing you see in the mirror?

[marka]

OK, so can you experience this stuff in your daily life? E.g. bodily sensations are impersonal? Or the fact that the bodily sensations change depending on what activity you are doing?

I will pay particular attention today and report. Initially, I think there is still assumed ownership.

What is your finger - this side of the mirror - pointing at?
A face or space?

Hmm. A face if I go on assumptions. Purely on the experience - space. But then you say:

So the finger is pointing at you.

As if to suggest face? Or is this the start of a completely new sentence? And any inference I've made to that meaning 'face' is just assumption? Confusing!

But what are you? Are you the thing you see in the mirror?

I am the thing I see in the mirror based on my past experience of interacting with the world and how people interact with me.
If I'd never had that past experience and was totally reliant on the information at hand (i.e. visual field), I would not know.

[Armstrong]

Re the mirror exercise - I meant as the immediate experience, not what you assume.

"So the finger is pointing at you" - not to suggest your face. How can you be your face if you can point to it? Wouldn't that be like saying, "I'm that guy over there?"

I think the reasonable thing to do is to try to experience this stuff in your regular life (for a few days) and report back on how it feels and what it is like. It may seem novel or perhaps odd.

You might try another mirror exercise: stand in front of a mirror. Pay attention to what you feel in the body. See if what you see in the mirror corresponds to what you feel in the body.

The point of all this: a lot of people assume they are a body. But again, if the body is something you can see, how can that be what you are? Isn't that like saying, "I'm that body over there?

[Armstrong]

And another body/mirror exercise for you:

Stand in front of a mirror. Pay attention to what you feel in the body. Pay attention to thoughts coming and going and what you see in front of you. Try to perceive what is paying attention and perceiving - right now, this moment - as you stand in front of the mirror.

What do you notice?

[marka]

I think the reasonable thing to do is to try to experience this stuff in your regular life (for a few days) and report back on how it feels and what it is like. It may seem novel or perhaps odd.

I'm doing this. I'm seeing it more and it does indeed appear novel. Simple, obvious.

Will keep you posted.

[marka]

It's not all the time yet, I have to relax, concentrate a bit, but it's different when its there. Glimpses of it.

[Armstrong]

I'm doing this. I'm seeing it more and it does indeed appear novel. Simple, obvious.

What is novel? What is your experience?

It's not all the time yet, I have to relax, concentrate a bit, but it's different when its there. Glimpses of it.

What is it? What do you experience?