Thread for Moondog

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

I'm glad it helped. No rush. Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete,

So, this time entirely from experiencing, and not at all from thinking, please answer these questions:
'When you 'deliberately' stay with a painful experience, describe to me the actual process whereby 'the thought story called me' makes that decision to stay with the pain. What happens? How do the thoughts that comprise this story bring this about? In turn, how does the decision to make the decision come about, and what decides that, etc, etc?'

No, it's not a matter of understanding or agreeing, it's simply and solely about looking at experiencing and seeing that there's just no separate self to be found in experiencing, whilst accepting that whatever thinking says, it's merely conceptual and so can have no reference to what's actually happening right now, which is all there ever is. You are saying, 'I dont think I am really seeing no self'. Please explain exactly what you mean by that. What is this 'really seeing' that you say isn't happening? How do you actually know this? Please now answer these questions, entirely from direct experience.

I realise that I got completely tangled up with thoughts with both of these and lost sight of directly experiencing. I think your absolutely right, I need to go back and look at thinking. I have decided to slow it right down and just look at one or two questions a day and really make sure that I am looking at them properly.

I spent a really interesting day yesterday looking at this one.

Where do thoughts come from?

I started off by getting caught up in thinking. looking at patterns e.g "thoughts are triggered by something in direct expereince and they are associative in nature." Then I realised that this was thinking about the experience that had just happened in retrospect and trying to figure it out - and perhaps there is a bit of truth in my deduction and perhaps that is part of thinkings seduction. But it is me deducing,analysing, thinking - and becoming disconected from my actual experience

So the honest answer is that i have absolutely no idea where thoughts come from. By the time I notice a thought it has already been hanging around for a while.

Its like my thoughts start too small for me to notice, they grow bigger and bigger untill they are large enough for me to notice, then they start to fade away and I am left with feelings and sensations that were giving the experience shape and texture - then then that starts to fade too and the whole process starts again.

I am going to do some more experiencing around some of your other questions and get back to you with more of my findings.

Thanks
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

I realise that I got completely tangled up with thoughts with both of these and lost sight of directly experiencing. I think your absolutely right, I need to go back and look at thinking. I have decided to slow it right down and just look at one or two questions a day and really make sure that I am looking at them properly.

Good. I'm really pleased that you can see that.

So the honest answer is that i have absolutely no idea where thoughts come from. By the time I notice a thought it has already been hanging around for a while.
Its like my thoughts start too small for me to notice, they grow bigger and bigger untill they are large enough for me to notice, then they start to fade away and I am left with feelings and sensations that were giving the experience shape and texture - then then that starts to fade too and the whole process starts again.

Yeah, that's it; observations of what actually happens, rather than thought commentary/speculation.

I am going to do some more experiencing around some of your other questions and get back to you with more of my findings.

Looking forward to your answers to the questions you quoted and the other thinking exercises. No need to rush, just let me have them as they arise and become clear.

Once we're both satisfied that you can find no separate self in any of the areas listed in the questions in my post of January 21st, and particularly that you can answer the question 'Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?' with a definite no, and I'm happy with that, we'll move on to the final questions. (I'd stress that, by doubts, I don't mean thoughts arising that refer to or suggest doubt about there being no self-entity, that's very common and is just what happens, I mean when such doubt-thoughts are taken seriously and believed.)

I then send you the 'final questions' and, as soon as I think the answers are all ok, I submit these to the other guides for them to look at to see if they agree with me that you've definitely seen through the illusion of self, or want to clarify any points, as they often do. Once that's sorted, you'll be invited to several groups, mainly on Facebook, that provide support, discussion etc. for those newly gated. Of course, it's up to you whether you join or not, but these forums are very friendly and can be really helpful as things develop and your seeing deepens.

Anyway, that's for later Seagull. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to your other replies and comments. Have a good weekend :)

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

This is what I have been looking at in relation to thoughts.

Are you in control of them?

No i'm not in controll of them. They are already there by the time I notice them. What is interesting for me is the familiar sense of frustration and disapointment that follows me noticing that I have been thinking. Essentially it is another thought about how i haven't been in controll of my thoughts and that I should be. I am not in controll of this thought either. Seeing this frees up allot of energy, the thought that about being disapointed and frustrated is not me - I don't have to take it so seriousely. It is just a habit that I can stop feeding and just watch! seeing this feels great.

I'll be in touch again tomorrow

Warmly

Ed

[moondog]

Hi Seagull

No i'm not in controll of them. They are already there by the time I notice them. What is interesting for me is the familiar sense of frustration and disapointment that follows me noticing that I have been thinking. Essentially it is another thought about how i haven't been in controll of my thoughts and that I should be. I am not in controll of this thought either. Seeing this frees up allot of energy, the thought that about being disapointed and frustrated is not me - I don't have to take it so seriousely. It is just a habit that I can stop feeding and just watch! seeing this feels great.

Ok, that's excellent. Your seeing is now more based on experience and therefore far more clear. Keep looking and looking (as in seeing without effort :)

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

Can you stop a thought from coming?

No I cant. in the same way that I cant stop waves from breaking. when I try to stop them I have a feeling that i am just trying to deny reality.

Can you stop it in the middle?

no I cant.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

I had some fun playing with this one - trying to predict just what I would think next - It was amazing just how off some of my guesses were. So no, I cant.

I'll get back with the last couple of answers soon

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

Thanks for those. It's great that you're being playful with them.

Looking forward to the rest soon, including comments/answers to my earlier queries, from my post of the 21st, requoted in yours of the 23rd.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

The thought "I" is a thought that I have identified with and by doing so created the false perception that there is a self.
Thought "Table" is still just a thought but it refers to something that does actually exist although I am perceiving that thing in a very conditioned way e.g I generally think of Table as a place where i sit to eat instead of something like a useful platform for changing a lightbulb or a place to shelter if there was an earthquake.

Can a thought think?

no, a thought is a product of this interconected flow of processes that I call me - it has no intrinsic reality of its own, so it cant possibly think. A thought can and does become a sense object that stimulates thinking but this is a very different thing to it being able to think itself.

okay I think I am ready to have a crack at this one now

So, this time entirely from experiencing, and not at all from thinking, please answer these questions:
'When you 'deliberately' stay with a painful experience, describe to me the actual process whereby 'the thought story called me' makes that decision to stay with the pain. What happens? How do the thoughts that comprise this story bring this about? In turn, how does the decision to make the decision come about, and what decides that, etc, etc?'

The part that decides to stay with the painful experience is the part that I am identifying with, but it is just a thought and not actually real. the part that wants to move away from the painful experience is a part that I am rejecting but actually it is me just as much as the other part - that is to say that neither of them are me because they are both thoughts and thoughts are just the natural product of this particular organism and not real.

Two habitual patterns of thinking and are meeting, an older pattern and a pattern which is more recent. The older pattern carries with it allot of momentum from years of use. The newer pattern does not have such a strong momentum but it carries with it the knowledge gained from previous experiences - where short term gratification was exchanged for longer term benefit.

The victor of these two conflicting patterns dependes upon how deep my habitual goove is in acting in a particular way, balanced against how connected I am to the knowledge that there is a better way of dealing with this situation. The decision will be different from day to day and moment to moment depending on how it is conditioned. Things like how stressed or relaxed I am, how tired or rested I am etc. Ultimately what I am doing is identifying with one thought more than another in a particular situation where one Pattern has the high ground over the other and saying "this is me and this is what I am deciding" but the whole thing is just bollocks.

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

The thought "I" is a thought that I have identified with and by doing so created the false perception that there is a self.
Thought "Table" is still just a thought but it refers to something that does actually exist although I am perceiving that thing in a very conditioned way e.g I generally think of Table as a place where i sit to eat instead of something like a useful platform for changing a lightbulb or a place to shelter if there was an earthquake.

Ok, that's fine, thanks.

The part that decides to stay with the painful experience is the part that I am identifying with, but it is just a thought and not actually real. the part that wants to move away from the painful experience is a part that I am rejecting but actually it is me just as much as the other part.

That all seems much clearer now Seagull, and so I'll now ask you again:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It appears to me that you have seen but, as I've already said, you need to be sure as well. If you're still not sure, then we need to revisit the other outstanding questions, viz:

'You are saying, '" dont think I am really seeing no self'". Please explain exactly what you mean by that. What is this "'really seeing" that you say isn't happening? How do you actually know this?' Please answer these questions, entirely from direct experience, adding anything else that you think relates to your not yet seeing clearly and for sure that there's no separate self, and never has been.

Impressive input and application from you all the way Seagull :)

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

I am pretty sure that I can see through the illusion of a seperate self. A couple of things you said in a earlier response has stayed with me and helped to give me confidence about this.

I'd stress that, by doubts, I don't mean thoughts arising that refer to or suggest doubt about there being no self-entity, that's very common and is just what happens, I mean when such doubt-thoughts are taken seriously and believed.

Yes its exactly like this for me. I have lots of thoughts that suggest doubt but When I stop and take time to look it becomes apparent that there is no self and I can stop taking those thoughts serriously.

and again when you said

...as things develop and your seeing deepens.

What is implied here is that seeing can happen at different depths ... and Yes I have seen through the illusion of self on a particular level but there is plenty of room for me to cultivate and deepen that insight.

Though it sounds silly saying this now I think there was a part of me expecting the "bells and the whistles of insight." In a certain way I have hung on to the idea that I should be progressing through the dhyanas and encounter insight as a vajra lightening bolt. (perhaps something I internalised from an attitude that seemed to be all around me during my formative years as a Buddhist practising in the FWBO.) Of course this is just a thought, an expectation and has nothing to do with what actually happens in direct experience.

Impressive input and application from you all the way Seagull :)

Thanks for these warm words

Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

I am pretty sure that I can see through the illusion of a seperate self. A couple of things you said in a earlier response has stayed with me and helped to give me confidence about this.

That's good to know.

I have lots of thoughts that suggest doubt but When I stop and take time to look it becomes apparent that there is no self and I can stop taking those thoughts seriously.

Good, that's key.

as things develop and your seeing deepens.

What is implied here is that seeing can happen at different depths ... and Yes I have seen through the illusion of self on a particular level but there is plenty of room for me to cultivate and deepen that insight.

Just to clarify: once you see, you've seen and, like you know there's no Santa, Batman, unicorns etc., you know there's no you, as in separate self. It's clear whenever you look. With that fundamental belief seen through and gone, all beliefs that were reliant and based on there being a separate self can be examined as and when they arise in awareness, seen through for what they are, and allowed to die and fall away. That's the gradual process of deepening.

So, here are the 'final questions'. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get all your answers, and have clarified anything with you that I might need to, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then, if you wish, I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. If you do want access to the FB groups, please either let me know your FB details here or, if you prefer, PM them to me.

Always from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Looking forward to your answers.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

I haven't managed to find any time today to sit down and write - its been crazy busy.

Thankyou for your message - I'll be in touch properly tomorrow.

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

Thanks for letting me know.

Looking forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a seperate self is just a thought, a concept, a really strong assuption. It attahces itself to familiar patterns of thought, feeling and sensation. Just as the ancients looked up into the night sky and saw constellations in the stars in a similar way the illusion of self is created by a kind of thinking that joins up the dots of our experience. This is just what minds do. The thought of a self is no more real than the constellation tauras is really a bull in the sky.

Another way of looking at it is to compare “being” to a wave forming on the ocean. The ocean and the wave are interconnected and interdependent. While the wave is a very real physical phenomenon, it would be a mistake to see it as separate and independent to the ocean, but this is the mistake that is made. It is as if we try to build a fortress on top of the wave, we create an unchanging ego self. With this done we have little choice but to push away anything that might threaten its existence (aversion), and try and take in anything that might strengthen our fortress (craving). Our lives become consumed by this project; we can never take a break. The foundations are constantly crumbling and the walls are cracked with subsidence because what our fortress is built upon is forever moving.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

it feels wonderful - really liberating. e.g I was watching thoughts arise into awareness - as a particular thought arose into awareness I noticed it came with the knowledge that I had already been thinking this thought for some time without being aware of it. Next ego kicked in with judgement and frustration saying things like "can't you just pay attention - stop your mind from wandering." At that moment I realised that actually this was an impossible demand. Thoughts begin small away from the light of awareness - when they reach a certain size I can become aware of them. I cant control thoughts anymore than I can stop the waves from breaking, all I can do is notice what is happening. What followed this was the realization that the judgement of ego was also just a thought and as such shared the same nature as the thought it was judging, I had no controll over this either. There was no self, thinking was happening and I was Identifying with first one thought then another ...and the whole thing was just nonsense.

With all this arose the knowledge that I didnt have to take thoughts serriously - I didn't have to beleive every thing I thought. I could just watch thoughts as they arose into awareness, hung around for a bit and then passed away.
With this I could feel the shame around about trying to be a particular kind of self and failing start to just drop away.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

going back and looking at thoughts again. I had got myself into a knot of thinking about choice, the nature of internal conflict and how decisions are made. How was it that it seemed I could choose to stay with something painful? By really looking at thinking I was able to see that I was identifying with the contents of thoughts instead of noticing what the nature of those thoughts were. Bellow I have pasted my response from that time when it finally "clicked"

The part that decides to stay with the painful experience is the part that I am identifying with, but it is just a thought and not actually real. the part that wants to move away from the painful experience is a part that I am rejecting but actually it is me just as much as the other part - that is to say that neither of them are me because they are both thoughts and thoughts are just the natural product of this particular organism and not real.

Two habitual patterns of thinking and are meeting, an older pattern and a pattern which is more recent. The older pattern carries with it allot of momentum from years of use. The newer pattern does not have such a strong momentum but it carries with it the knowledge gained from previous experiences - where short term gratification was exchanged for longer term benefit.

The victor of these two conflicting patterns dependes upon how deep my habitual goove is in acting in a particular way, balanced against how connected I am to the knowledge that there is a better way of dealing with this situation. The decision will be different from day to day and moment to moment depending on how it is conditioned. Things like how stressed or relaxed I am, how tired or rested I am etc. Ultimately what I am doing is identifying with one thought more than another in a particular situation where one Pattern has the high ground over the other and saying "this is me and this is what I am deciding" but the whole thing is just bollocks.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

I think I have answered a lot of this already in the above examples. Things just happen by themselves, There is no self deciding,choosing, controlling, intending, that has free will or that is able to be responsible. Things just happen sometimes they are noticed and sometimes they are not.

6) Anything to add?

I don't think so.

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi seagull,

Thanks for your very full answers. I'm really pleased that your seeing is now so clear.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and I'll let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two or longer, or it can be quicker. No worries.

After that, I'll arrange for you to get access to various groups on Facebook and the LU site. You can just PM your Facebook details if that's what you want.

Pete x