I would appreciate a helping hand or a smack in the head!!

[Tanya-D]

Thanks Alex :)

Can you experience something that does not exist? Or rather, only exists as a thought? Isn't experiencing "no self" the same as experiencing this moment without self referential thought? Without putting an I/me into the equation?

This is what is causing doubt and confusion. No, I cannot experience something that isn't there, so will never know for certain that I/Me is not there! Really lost in this point.

I don't know if experiencing no self is the same as experiencing this moment without self referential thought. Logically, but using the mind here, then yes, that is what it means, but I am uncertain that I/me has disappeared while I've felt present. Maybe I wasn't present and thought the experience I had was IT?

I don't know :( and my mind is playing up again and making me not want to do this. I just get a sense that I'm not quite there yet.

To be awake is to have seen through the illusion of a separate self completely and integrate this realisation into your life.

I understand that, but again, I haven't seen through the illusion completely - or is this the mind spinning more illusion so as not to let go?

I guess you are the judge here, Alex. If I am there and it is the mind that is still gripping on, then I understand that. I know the expectations I had, that I didn't know I had, have gotten in the way also. If I've described being awake in a way that seems as though I'm there, then I think I need you to point that out.

I also know that the mind has gone nuts and very sticky today!

Tanya

[Alexw]

Maybe I wasn't present and thought the experience I had was IT?

Why would one experience be more IT than another experience? An experience is just that, an experience. Do you think "awareness/consciousness/life..." values one experience more than another one? It's what thought makes of it, that is where judgement comes in. Was this IT, or was this not IT... do you think thought knows?
Can THIS ever not be IT?

This is what is causing doubt and confusion. No, I cannot experience something that isn't there, so will never know for certain that I/Me is not there! Really lost in this point.

Whenever doubt arises, look at it. What is its nature? What is it questioning? Look deeply into this experience, this moment. What do you find? Do you find any separate entities? Do you find a separate experiencer? Do you find a thinker? What is there?

Can you ever really know that Santa does not exist? You can not experience his absence, can you? But you still know for sure that he is only a story, don't you? In which way is the story of "I/me" any different?

As long as you are chasing a special experience to proof a belief you will always think that you are not there yet...
BUT: What is it that should be "there"? What is "there"? Is "there" anywhere else than here/now? Is there ever anywhere else than here/now?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

Ah, I think I know what the block is here . . .and all you have pointed out above is understood and agreed with. There is nothing else other than direct experience. Everything else is a description after the expression of experience. Seems to me there are only two modes of 'living' - asleep in thought, and awake in the now.

I absolutely understand your pointers, and have 'seen' how feelings are merely bodily sensations that become emotions when the mind slaps a title or label on it - and then the mind entertains us, or beat us up, with thought-stories what it means to the personal I/me, Tanya . . .

I haven't 'seen' a thought without content, and I think this is where it is still sticking, and maybe why I cannot separate from I/me yet.

Thank you :)

[Alexw]

There is nothing else other than direct experience. Everything else is a description after the expression of experience. Seems to me there are only two modes of 'living' - asleep in thought, and awake in the now.

Yes, well seen, this experience simply is as it is - no concepts required for IT to be. Thought adds all the labels, concepts, meaning and judgement. We often flip-flop from being lost in thought to being consciously present of this moment, don't we? Still, being present doesn't mean that there is no conceptual thinking as well as self referential thought happening. It just is clearly seen that this is happening and that thoughts don't point to a real, separate entity. The effect of seeing this is that these kind of thoughts will get less and less - the mind will get calmer.

I haven't 'seen' a thought without content, and I think this is where it is still sticking, and maybe why I cannot separate from I/me yet.

Can there be a thought without content? Wouldn't this be like a noise without a sound?
Thoughts are just that, thoughts. Sounds are just that, sounds.
Where is the problem with any of that? Why is there no problem with sound, but only with thought?
Isn't the only problem that there is an identification happening with thought? How does this identification work?
Is there really an entity to identify with? Or is there simply another thought that states "I am this body/mind - its me!" But is there anything to be found in direct experience? Or is there just another thought?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

Isn't the only problem that there is an identification happening with thought? How does this identification work?

Yes! Identification with thought! That's the problem! I don't identify with the stories, or content or labels even - I can see them for what they are now - but there is a strong sense of thought being me. Kind of like the observer is thought. So there is still a sense that there is a self still here. Jeez, I am struggling so much to articulate this. Who invented language?!??!!!

What am I not 'seeing'?????

Sorry to take so long :(

Tanya

[Alexw]

Ok... Identification with thoughts is the problem... Look! What is the "I" that identifies? Is there an entity to be found?
What is a "strong sense of thought "? Can you please describe this in detail?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

What is the "I" that identifies? Is there an entity to be found?

No, there is no entity to be found. Just a sense of something and nothing.

What is a "strong sense of thought "? Can you please describe this in detail?

I'll try . . . This sense is just a feeling, and when I look at the feeling it just becomes a presence, an awareness - and it kind of hit me today . . .that is IT.

IT looks out at the world - presence does - and I am confusing it with the self. It isn't me, it is awareness. When I'm present, here in the now, it feels boring now, like, 'OK, so this is it, and now you know, you can go and play inside the mind and dream and have fun, WITHOUT identifying with it all. It just feels so empty now. Peaceful but boring almost - and then I wondered if that was why thoughts and stories exist - just to play and entertain presence?

The mind is now understood as something that describes this reality having the experience, BUT after the fact because if we didn't have mind we would exist in a suspending nothingness without interaction, not knowing awake from not, or existing from not existing. So now I'm friends with the mind :)

I've also noticed that feelings are passing through. I was tremendously angry this morning, and have no idea why, but I was just present, had no idea why my eyes were filled with tears, didn't care, I just knew it was just sensation passing through. I kept present, surrendered and allowed, and all that other Zen stuff - and it was over over in a couple of minutes. I still don't know what it was about, but Ilona mentioned the unravelling of conditioning that still happens after going through the gate, and guess its that, and still don't care.

I think I am through, Alex - and been scared to know it. I don't know what else to say. It was the expectations of what IT was that would NOT let me be content with what IS - and now I wanna go and smack the writers of the books that have us looking for THEIR way! :) Joking, but kinda not.

Hope that makes sense. It kind of feels done now - and kinda just wanna BE.

Can't thank you enough for helping find this - even though it was closer than my own eyeball, all along :)

Tanya

[Alexw]

Great! Well seen!

Just one more thing, even it might sound a little bit picky, but what exactly do you mean with:

IT looks out at the world - presence does - and I am confusing it with the self. It isn't me, it is awareness.

Is presence/awareness really looking out at the world? Is there an inside/outside for presence/awareness?
Can you find a world/universe that is separate from presence/awareness/experience (whatever you want to call it)? Where is the border?

Be careful, don't replace one conceptual entity "I/me" with another one called "presence/awareness"...

[Tanya-D]

Not picky at all! I appreciate you taking the time to be so thorough and I understand your observation of what I've just described, so here goes another try :)

It/Presence is simply Here, Being and experiencing Being, and looking and hearing, and tasting and so forth. The sense I feel when I really look directly at it is, a simple sensation of presence, aliveness, and not me/self - so when It wants to use this body's eyes to see, IT is using them, not me....is that clearer? I thought that sensation was me. And now I see it is merely aliveness, presence, experiencing directly, reality.

No wonder it is said, that if you can describe it, you are not there! :) My tongue is getting wrapped round the back of my teeth trying to describe it. Haha....in a fun way.

There is nothing that is separate, not mind, thoughts or the stories even. It is just when we identify with the mind state we detach from IT - there is nothing separate about any of it, but the danger is in identifying with the stories of the mind and the self as the only thing that exists for self which then causes fear and contraction and loses us in layers of sticky illusion.

I would even go so far as to say that even concept of self is ok - as it is just a tool that mind uses to help describe the experience reality is having. I think that by detaching from the self identity, it immediately shifts into the reality of truth and experience. The mind is the veil that separates IT from itself, and then we thing we are Me's. Once seen through, its ok to let the mind be the simple and effective tool that it is, a processor to describe experience.

I would say there's a feeling, a sense, a being'ness of It, of Here . . . I was just confusing that with Self/Me/I
And, yes, I would even say there is an inside and outside, an up and down, a here and there, fields, trees, suns, moons, oceans, air, molecules, dogs, bodies, water etc - and ALL of IT is Here, Now, Being - the position of perspective is just a descriptor, word, or a label for what is presently being experienced. What I look at is, currently IT.

IT is like energy that morphs and becomes 'things', but it experiences the things it becomes, yet knows them, observes them and this body is IT too - and IT uses the body as a vehicle to enjoy the created world, I guess.

Am I there yet? :) No worries if not, but it seems so clear now!

[Alexw]

Thank you for the beautiful description! Yes, I guess you are there, as much as a "you" can be "there" :-)

Please have a look at these questions - they are meant to sum up what we have been looking at so far and might be useful for further inquiry. They are also sort of a standard procedure at LU before we add you to the LU Facebook groups, which you may join if you like.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

How exciting! :) And yes, I would love to join the Facebook groups - thanks.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, self is a concept that describes experience, I think. The presence I'm aware of inside and around the body is what I was confusing as self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Separate self is a projection of an identity, like a character in a play. It's funny to now think about getting so upset and offended and then trying to change the outcome of something that is already written. It already is. We think we are born into a body, but presence is born into a body. We think we learn to walk but it is presence that walks the body, feeds the body, laughs, cries, chooses - the illusion of self is where Tanya thinks she is choosing, but presence has chosen and then that information is processed into understanding, with thought, that makes sense of it after the fact. I guess this is where the doing and seeing and being is experienced, and all instantaneously.

I feel IT more than see IT, so it is difficult to describe, but Self is the illusory divider, or perhaps blindfold is a better metaphor, that separates presence from its own experience. Self acts like a pair of rose tinted glasses and not always in a whimsical way, or muddy windows that obscure the truth. Kind of like needing to catch a ball, and then reading about catching a ball and thinking that you have actually caught the ball by reading about it. Ok, I've confused myself here :)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It felt a little disappointing, to be honest. I sat, saw it, and laughed, saying 'Is that it? Bloody hell. I want my money back!' :) Then I soon realised it was because of the dozens of books I've read, and talks I've listened to where the 'teacher' talks about 'his' way. I thought it would be experienced like a teacher's way, but laughed at realising that this is a different experience that reality is having from the experience that reality is having through the teacher. That is where the uniqueness of life comes from - all the same, but different :)

Before starting with you, Alex, I was trying to get 'there' through the mind - not one book I read explained plainly what direct living was, what experience directly realised was. They described it with lots of poetic and lovely prose and I got confused. Now, I know/see/understand that It is always Here, and always has been - and has been 'seen' by me many times. I just didn't know it. Right Here-Right Now is what IT is. Being in the moment of Now completely. Like when you watch a good movie and your own awareness completely disappears in that time. I must say that this is hit and miss right now, but I understand it. I tend to find this is how understanding unfolds for me. I have the penny drop and then understand the experience more and more and then notice I'm having that very experience more and more. Life likes it that way :) Don't blame me!

I don't think life can be understood at all without thought. Without thought there is no description, there is just a happening, a feeling, a sensation which is great, but no understanding, perhaps. I am now realising where the Holy Trinity comes from - it's Mind, Body and Spirit, isn't it. This is what IT is made of. Mind to know and describe to itself, body to experience the things it creates and spirit is the energy that is unmade until it becomes, and holds everything together, perfectly.

Humans just need to realise that Self is a concept in a thought and not to be taken as life itself. Or not so seriously. I've noticed I've really lightend up, even when I feel angry or pain. It all passes.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Your question - Isn't the only problem that there is an identification happening with thought? How does this identification work? This helped me get deeper into what the mind was and wasn't. A label for the processing bit of presence, and the part that uses the energy of thought to experience reality.

And this a couple of days before - As long as you are chasing a special experience to proof a belief you will always think that you are not there yet...
I absolutely agree; if I keep looking I will always find something to see! That is the nature of IT, it is all that is focused on. IT looks at a tree, and IT is a tree, IT looks at a planet and IT is a planet, IT looks at a doubt and IT is a doubt . . .at least I 'think' this is how it works and it makes sense to what I have understood in quantum physics. Reality becomes the experience that is being focused on.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Please give examples from recent experience.

Hmmm, I have scattered the answers to this throughout this post, but Reality is happening and being experienced without decision, or intention. I'm merely a drop in a vast ocean, or the awareness that is happening through this body is. Hard to describe without pronouns. I think free will is something very different to what we've been taught. It is not having the ability to chooses, but having the awareness to focus on whatever is being focused on, and experiencing reality directly through that focus and understanding.

Things happen out of nothing. The experience just happens, no personal decisions are being made because there is no 'person' here to make a decision. It just flows, and expresses and becomes and changes and lives, and grows and contracts and IT is Life. And life is not meant to be lived through the Self - that is like looking at a movie of your life, and thinking your living it.

6) Anything to add?

There is still doubt here, but you are right when saying if I keep chasing this it will always be 'not' done. I know it is a belief that needs to dissolve. I don't look at a body and 'see' myself in that body, as Eckhart Tolle goes on about, or Adyashanti talks about his moment when he saw he was the same as everything else, but it is a deep knowing in me, not a 'seen' thing. And I am more aware now of how words are terribly limiting to this inquiry. Seeing to Eckhart might be my being aware of alive presence?

Again, if there is something that is still not right, then I am happy to keep on 'looking', Alex :)

Jeez, I've written you a thesis! Over to you . . .

Tanya

[Tanya-D]

I have a question, or something I would like your help in clearing up, please Alex -

Ilona accepted me in the Facebook group called Deep Looking, then I find it's the same as we've been doing but this forum is much more focused.

Anyway, a poster wrote:

Real liberation is when the subconscious suddenly ceases projecting your personal identity in its entirety. It's a breath-taking moment of complete release and a revelation of boundless transparency of spacious awareness without a center or border. It's depth of luminous, knowing emptiness is incomprehensible and all pervasive like crystalline clear light.

And I thought, this is where my doubt is. I don't feel this, or see this - I still feel I have a centre so to speak. Ignore the use of I here, as it is just to use the limiting language we have. The above is the same as all I read in the countless books that I mention above, but now I wonder that the LU forum is not about that, is it? It really is what it says on the tin . . .look directly at life, not through the mind, not through beliefs or memories, but directly and you will understand there is no self. You will not find no self and then realisation will dawn . . . If this is so, then my doubt has cleared. This is just step one?

Looking forward to hearing from you. Also, Alex, my birthday celelbrations are this weekend, I will be out Saturday night, so I shall catch you on Sunday. Thank you.

Tanya

[Alexw]

Hi Tanya,
Thank you for the beautiful answers.

Real liberation is when the subconscious suddenly ceases projecting your personal identity in its entirety. It's a breath-taking moment of complete release and a revelation of boundless transparency of spacious awareness without a center or border. It's depth of luminous, knowing emptiness is incomprehensible and all pervasive like crystalline clear light.

And I thought, this is where my doubt is. I don't feel this, or see this - I still feel I have a centre so to speak.

I guess this is a hurdle that many if not most seekers face. It is the longing for this peak experience, this special revelation. As you mentioned in your post, here at LU we are not looking at inducing a special, but also temporary, experience. We are looking at what IS and especially what is all the time.
The subconscious (or whatever) ceasing to project a personal identity is not permanent (maybe it is for guys like Ramana or Nisargadatta?) and it is also not what we are after. Your life in our western society would become very difficult if not impossible without the concept of a separate self that exercises free will. Its just important to see that it is not more and not less than a concept...
Anyway, you never know, an experience like that might happen (or not) and if it happens, enjoy it and take from it what it reveals, but don't get stuck looking for it...

[Alexw]

Could you please send me a private message with your Facebook name so I can have the admins add you to the LU FB groups? I will also send you a friend request.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Have fun celebrating!

[Tanya-D]

Ah, yes, that makes perfect sense that special experiences are not permanent. No wonder not many people have woken up if we've been listen to certain teacher, eh!!?

Thank you for being a fun, clear, and supportive guide Alex - I really enjoyed our time together. What you do for us is quite remarkable! All the best, Tanya x