Thread for unbearablelightness

[unbearablelightness]

Dear Dridhamati
Sorry, I haven't made much time today. I'll just tackle this question for tonight:

Could you please expand on this “seeing” that seems to come and go? What is this “seeing”? What is “seen”?

Shorthand for seeing the "one taste" of experience rather than relating to objects. Seeing all apparent objects melt into a continuum of upwelling awareness, and how any sense of a seer is part of that field. Seeing that what's arising is exactly what there is, rather than projecting identities outwards and inwards.

But a question about the mug exercise: when you say "down to the barest qualifier", I'm not sure how bare to go! Last time you were asking me not to discriminate between the senses and leave it at awareness arising (or whatever). In which case the answer will basically be the same; or shall I give more of a breakdown of sense data, colours, thoughts etc?

All the best
Vajrapriya

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

Shorthand for seeing the "one taste" of experience rather than relating to objects. Seeing all apparent objects melt into a continuum of upwelling awareness, and how any sense of a seer is part of that field. Seeing that what's arising is exactly what there is, rather than projecting identities outwards and inwards.

OK, thanks for that. We both seem to be pointing in the same ‘direction’, words are so inadequate and limiting.

But a question about the mug exercise: when you say "down to the barest qualifier", I'm not sure how bare to go! Last time you were asking me not to discriminate between the senses and leave it at awareness arising (or whatever). In which case the answer will basically be the same; or shall I give more of a breakdown of sense data, colours, thoughts etc?

Sorry if that wasn’t clear enough.
The purpose of the ‘mug’ exercise is to observe experience in the visual sphere, and also to observe what happens in the mind sphere.
Note that it isn’t so much having arrived at the “barest qualifier” that is of import here but what happens along the way, until this “barest qualifier” is reached, so to speak.
Please report on that process.

All the best,
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Dear Dridhamati

Mug exercise here goes:
Initial mood of reluctance, experienced as thoughts of "I know what will happen", and fear experienced as thoughts "nothing will happen".
Initial fairly coarse labelling "table", "mug", "wood grain", "mug pattern"
Then labelling of colours, and noticing the colour contrasts and tonal contrasts that caused the labelling between table and mug. A few places were there was little contrast between them, but still noticing a sense of constructed difference.
Noticing movement of visual field around, idea of "boredom"
Noticing the sense of "3D", depth, eye winking to shift between 2D & 3D, interest in the felt difference, ungraspable difference.
Music playing in mind - sounds
Intentness of looking, and the sense of the looker; and the sense of space between looker and mug. That sense of space becoming ungraspable, the looker nowhere to be found, the sense of the looker being ungraspable.
Sense of someone noticing, picking out salient features to note down, ungraspable, not to be found. Thoughts about that, thoughts about the thoughts of noticing. Writing happening - visual movement, physical sensation, ungraspable sense of volition in doing so.

This the sort of thing?
VP

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

This the sort of thing?

Yes, great: a lot of thought content with a bit of physical experience.

Now the next exercise is to sort out one from the other. That is:
1.To clarify what is experience (from the visual, and possibly other, sphere), and what is thought content (mental activity.)
2.To observe the relationship between the two.

So for example.
Thought content: “Initial mood of reluctance, experienced as thoughts of "I know what will happen", and fear experienced as thoughts "nothing will happen".”
Look for a physical experience associated with this, such as picking up the mug prehaps, or clearing the table top, etc.
Lastly look for this association, how does it work, its dependency, etc.

There’s no need to report on all the various individual experiences and thought content, as is done in the example above.
What is asked for is a report on the relationship, the association.

All the best
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Dear Dridhamati

I'm nodding off doing this exercise so I think I'd better be back with you tomorrow.
but in the meanwhile a clarification:

1.To clarify what is experience (from the visual, and possibly other, sphere), and what is thought content (mental activity.)

I guess you are talking about discriminating between the mind sense and the visual sense, rather than saying that the 5 physical senses are experience and thought isn't?

VP

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

1.To clarify what is experience (from the visual, and possibly other, sphere), and what is thought content (mental activity.)

I guess you are talking about discriminating between the mind sense and the visual sense, rather than saying that the 5 physical senses are experience and thought isn't?

Yes, it is about the discrimination.
Sleep well.

All the best
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Hi Dridhamati

What is asked for is a report on the relationship, the association.

Interesting exercise, and very portable.
The relationship is very fluid. Sometimes mental experience is decoupled from visual experience ( if we apply that discrimination between different aspects of experience) as when "the mind wanders". Other times mental experience drives attention back to visual experience, as when there is remembering of the exercise. Sometimes the visual image conditions thoughts related to it (eg appreciation of the colours of the mug).

More subtly, thoughts can condition the way that visual experience is related to, so that a subtle mental intention can shift the degree of conceptualisation around the visual image, eg moving from an everyday sense of a mug, to seeing colour and light.

There seems to be a subtle level of conceptualisation "hovering around" the image: the sense of familiarity (that I mentioned before), the understanding how to relate to it, the sense of distance from it, the sense of it being a solid object etc, which are all a different category to the visual image yet feel inseparable from it, or closely coupled with it.

All the best
Vajrapriya

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

Interesting exercise, and very portable.

Ah, and it ain’t over yet. ;-)

In this ‘mug exercise’:
- what is the barest qualifier (the one without which comunication ends) of experience in the visual sphere? No working from memory here, please observe.
- do any of the thought contents described in the report (“The relationship is very ... coupled with it.”), occurring at various stages, alter this barest qualifier?

In other words, whatever thought contents claim to ‘see’, ‘feel’, etc, do thought contents actually have anything to do with what is experienced -in this case, in the visual sphere?

You can also try this exercise with the hearing sphere: put some music on and listen. What is experienced in the hearing sphere (down to the barest qualifier)? What’s mind activity claiming? What’s the relationship between the two? Is there any connection?

All the best
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Hi Dridhamati

what is the barest qualifier (the one without which comunication ends) of experience in the visual sphere?

Well, let's go for "seeing"

do any of the thought contents described in the report (“The relationship is very ... coupled with it.”), occurring at various stages, alter this barest qualifier?

No, seeing is happening regardless of thoughts, independent of thoughts.

In other words, whatever thought contents claim to ‘see’, ‘feel’, etc, do thought contents actually have anything to do with what is experienced -in this case, in the visual sphere?

The language I used is that they are different categories. The seeing experience discriminated as red is a different category to the word "red". Do they have anything to do with each other? Well, that depends what you mean by "anything to do". For the word "red" to have any meaning it has something to do with the colour red. But that relationship is a conventional one, not "given" in reality. So if you mean is there some inherent connection between them, then no.

By the way, my availability will get a bit ragged this week. Tomorrow should be fine, Wed I'm moving out and travelling. On Friday I go off for a week retreat, and probably back on line on 5th Jan.

All the best
Vajrapriya

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

do any of the thought contents ... alter this barest qualifier?

No, seeing is happening regardless of thoughts, independent of thoughts.

In other words, whatever thought contents claim to ‘see’, ‘feel’, etc, do thought contents actually have anything to do with what is experienced -in this case, in the visual sphere?

... So if you mean is there some inherent connection between them, then no.

OK, and that’s the experience here also.
Indeed, whatever is thought ‘about’ experience does not affect experiencing.
However hard it is believed that a lead weight will reach the ground faster than a grain of sand, it will not change the visual experience of both items reaching the ground at the same time. (Galileo demonstrated this at his trial by the Inquisition.)

So how about a little recap here?

When asked to report on observation of experience, these are some of the answers:
“awareness arising, experience unfolding, consciousness transforming, whatever we call it.”, or
“In direct experience there's inseparable flow. Calling one [experience] pleasant and the other unpleasant is to discriminate features out of that flow.”

And now, when asked whether thought contents -also known as views, beliefs, memories- alter experience, the answer from observation is no.

Has this question really been answered then:
Why are “memory of the seeing” and “a belief system” coming into the picture when experience happening right here and now can be seen, unfolding?

By the way, my availability will get a bit ragged this week. Tomorrow should be fine, Wed I'm moving out and travelling. On Friday I go off for a week retreat, and probably back on line on 5th Jan.

No problems. Thanks for letting me know.
An exercise for practise (only report on this if you wish):
When this fear/doubt arises (“memory of the seeing, belief system, etc”), simply observe the effects on the body. Note that these effects might be subtle.
As these effects are observed, what happens to the fear/doubt?

All the best
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Dear Dridhamati

Has this question really been answered then:
Why are “memory of the seeing” and “a belief system” coming into the picture when experience happening right here and now can be seen, unfolding?

Yes thanks, that little series of exercises illustrated well where you're pointing.

An exercise for practise (only report on this if you wish):
When this fear/doubt arises (“memory of the seeing, belief system, etc”), simply observe the effects on the body. Note that these effects might be subtle.
As these effects are observed, what happens to the fear/doubt?

It hasn't been active so far over the last couple of days, there's been quite a bit of ease and confidence around. But yes, recently I've been doing that kind of practice with them, and feeling the fear/doubt appear as body sensation and then relax.

From now on I'll be without a laptop, so would prefer to reply to your posts by email if that's ok? Very fiddly to use the BB on my phone (unless you have some hot tips).

Thanks and best wishes
Vajrapriya

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

Yes thanks, that little series of exercises illustrated well where you're pointing.

Good. Please see below.

It hasn't been active so far over the last couple of days, there's been quite a bit of ease and confidence around. But yes, recently I've been doing that kind of practice with them, and feeling the fear/doubt appear as body sensation and then relax.

Great. Nothing more to ‘do’ than relax, ease into confidence.
The confidence that “self” has been seen for the fraud that it is, that it never existed, and that this ‘absence’ can be observed in experience, in spite of whatever tall tale is conjured up by mind.

From now on I'll be without a laptop, so would prefer to reply to your posts by email if that's ok? Very fiddly to use the BB on my phone (unless you have some hot tips).

Sure, no problems. If you want I am happy to post your emails for you on LU so that there is a complete dialogue. I’ll need your LU password for that.
There is also an app for smart phones called tapatalk for use of forums on mobile devices. In case you want to try it.

All the best
Dridhamati

[unbearablelightness]

Thanks Dridhamati. I haven't yet found a way to post on tapatalk for some reason but will persist. Any more questions for now?

Happy Christmas!
Vp

[dridhamati]

Hi Vajrapriya,

Hve you tried resting a finger on the post to reply to? You should get a menu with "Reply", "Quote", etc.
Of course you'll need to sign in first.

Any more questions for now?

No questions. Just carry on with what was suggested in the last 2 posts. See what happens and report before you're off on Friday?
All the best and merry Xmas!
Dridhamati

Sent from a phone. Please forgive poor style and spelling. :-)

[unbearablelightness]

Hi Vajrapriya,

Hve you tried resting a finger on the post to reply to? You should get a menu with "Reply", "Quote", etc.
Of course you'll need to sign in first.

Any more questions for now?

No questions. Just carry on with what was suggested in the last 2 posts. See what happens and report before you're off on Friday?
All the best and merry Xmas!
Dridhamati

Sent from a phone. Please forgive poor style and spelling. :-)