Tired of the person

[Nati]

Hi again,
now I can come back to your question.

Give me a current summary of the expectations that arise for you.
How do you think Renate will experience life-ing when she is 'cooked' ?

As I said before, Lisa gave me an idea of what can happen afterwards. Stuff can come up that has been hiding for a long time. There will be a lot of work to be done. But I imagine there is a difference to the work I did before, like in therapy. I will less and less identify with my story. After the root believe is removed, there comes a cleaning up time. Much of it probably not very nice. Also I expect a to and fro movement between being at peace and seemingly having lost it again. So I am glad i am not left alone but can find support in the Facebook group. I think I must be very alert and watch out for old habits and beliefs that come up. They have to be looked at.

I expect that my creativity will flow more freely. Already I have had some songs coming to me out of nowhere. Very nice gifts. I hope to find some form of sharing them.

Life will be lived more spontaneously. I will be less anxious to make a fool of myself and less anxious to be around people in general. But also I feel I will be by myself a lot, enjoying my own company.
A growing sense of wonder. Gratitude. Trust in life. And lots of joy. Feeling truly alive.

love

Renate

[Nati]

...and of course,
lots of laughter

[Nati]

again and again
waves of gratitude and wonder
rising up

is this really true
then in between
back to normal
cleaning the tub
having breakfast
insecurity

if only I could express my gratitude

[vinceschubert]

Good Morning Renate.[quote="Nati"]Let's run through some questions and see if we can any identifications. Try and answer them from what you are experiencing, and not from theory or what you have heard or read.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[Nati]

Hi Vince.
What a crash.
I found myself staring at your questions, puzzled, not understanding what they meant. Maybe I don't even know what is meant by "looking".
Then realized that I was disappointed by the lack of your emotional response. There were only those questions Copy / Paste . Even a homeless [quote] left in. Was this a test? Then it worked fine. I feel completely disillusioned now.
At least this must be good.
But then I ask myself what it was, that i felt the days before. Just some highly strung emotional state? It
didn't seem to be. But then - how can it be shattered so easily?
One possible story: That my reaction is totally adequate because i am a human being that shared emotions with someone else and got a very dry response.
Another: Feeling and displaying any emotions in this process is inadequate. But I cannot help it. (Well, I could probably refrain from sharing them.) Conclusion: this is not for me.
My great story about this being a wonderful way of evolving is shattered. How can that be? It was "I", that got in the way.

There must be another more useful story hidden somewhere, that i can't see yet.
Is this crash what you expected or are you surprised?
Do you think it makes sense at all to carry on?

Renate

[vinceschubert]

'morning Renate.
Oops, i did stuff up that quote, and what i wrote after that. (That's what i get for not checking after posting)
Those questions are designed to show residual identification, and boy did they show it. (big time)

Do you think it makes sense at all to carry on?

This question implies that you have a choice.
Although we haven't covered it yet, this brings the subject to the fore.
If you look back at say, what you had for breakfast, given the circumstances, could it have been any different. (or do you believe the thoughts that say "of course, I could have had something else" ?)

My great story about this...

Believing stories. Do you not see that stories are just thoughts ?
Thought stories that may or may not turn out to be (more or less) accurate.
It is obvious from your reaction that you are totally sucked in to the story of Renate.
When you ask yourself the question Who am I?
If you LOOK in current experiencing (not thought) you will immediately notice a vast space.
This is all that there ever was, is, and will be.

Ask the question, and then stop there, at the edge of a vast aware space of not knowing. Go no further. Allow the answer to reveal itself. This is not an intellectual knowing. Just continue to pursue the question rather than paying attention to the thoughts and ideas that will continue to flood in to try to fill that unknowingness. You will never find the answer in the realm of the mind, because the mind seeks always to fill in the space with ideas, concepts, and imaginings. Why? Because the mind, the false self, is uneasy with not knowing! Generating fantasies gives the mind a reason to exist.

As you gain experience with this, you will stop rushing to fill the gap. You will no longer try to fill the space. You can be content with not knowing, happy with no answer, and you can begin to relax in the gap, in the aware space of your true nature. If you keep resting in this space, you will be able to stay in it for longer periods of time. The mind will become clearer, and it will allow you to actually directly realize what you are observing rather than attempting to grasp it through thoughts and ideas about what it is or might be.

You know that you exist. You know that you are. It is not just a thought or a belief. The verb “to be” is expressed as “I am,” and this “I AM” is the basic expression of presence/awareness. When you think that there must be more than this simple presence/awareness, that there is something more you need to know about it, you are continually chasing thoughts round and round in your mind. Stop.

If you keep going back to this core, you discover the presence/awareness that is the ground of your being, the place where happiness, fulfillment, and meaning are found.

First there is a seeker, a body-mind, a false I. Then there is a finder, a witness, universal consciousness. Finally what is revealed is what you are before being either.

compassion & empathy (i can remember moments of hopelessness)

vince

[Nati]

Hello Vince,

what a strange outcome, that you had written some more after all. Quite funny to be exposed this way.

Reading your questions for a second time, I feel again confusion rising up. And I feel stupid that I don't see those things. "Hopeless case" thought arises again.

(or do you believe the thoughts that say "of course, I could have had something else" ?)

Yes, I still believe these thoughts. I still feel that I am chosing what i have for breakfast. However most of the time I seem to be not in charge. Often I seem to be a victim of myself.
Concerning this quest i don't seem to have a choice. It just goes on and on.

Believing stories. Do you not see that stories are just thoughts ?

Yes, they are. But it is like the movies. I know the characters and the stories are not real. Still I get sucked in. And my knowing doesn't prevent me from getting the full impact of this movie as long as i keep watching it. So how to stop watching?

It is obvious from your reaction that you are totally sucked in to the story of Renate.

Oh yes i am. Apart from those blessed moments when all this just falls away. Quite a character this Renate. Very german with the full story of the Naziperiod lurking in the background. Concentration Camps and all this. So Serious. (bursting into laughter as i write this.) It is a great Taboo to let go of that. We have put up a Memorial Place that might last longer than the pyramids. And rightly so. But i don't want to carry it any longer. By the way, you seem to have german ancestors?? Sorry for getting carried away.
Truly, i am tired of this character.

If you LOOK in current experiencing (not thought) you will immediately notice a vast space.

[Nati]

If you LOOK in current experiencing (not thought) you will immediately notice a vast space.

What I see is more like a dark screen or a curtain. Maybe there is a vast space behind it? I will keep on looking and, hopefully LOOKING will happen.

Those last paragraphs you wrote i will read more than once. Those words sound familiar to me. They remind me of Moojis teaching. Mooji asked: where is the blockage, what are you holding on to that prevents you from seeing?
i seem to be clinging to this story of an incapable and miserable me. Why am i afraid to let go of that? If it was the story of a glorious me, ok, I'd understand, but this one?

I appreciate your patience
thank you
Renate

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Renate. LOOKing is a bit of a trick. The mind always wants to respond with the known. It wants to explain and categorize. Here are some suggestions for you to consider;
Scan the body for sensation.
Watch thoughts arise without engaging their content. (unless you do)
If content does 'hook' you, the moment you realize that this has happened, laugh (fake it if necessary) then go back to watching thoughts..
When scanning the body for sensation. Go from head to toes, then toes to head. If thoughts interrupt this, do above then go back to scanning.
Do not have opinion or judgement about progress (or lack of it) - unless you do. If you do, don't have opinion or judgement about that.
Don't impose a time frame on this. Finish each session a minute or two after 'something' tells you that you have had enough.
When that 'something' arises, ask yourself if it it an avoidance. Check to see if fear is present. Do nothing about it if it is. Just do that extra couple of minutes.
At least once in each session, LOOK to see if there is any sign of a Self anywhere.
When that dark screen or curtain is seen, do nothing to remove it. Just watch it with ultimate patience. At some point it will evaporate...

Do 3 or 4 sessions then report.

Hang in there Renate. Whatever turns up is OK.

love & empathy

vince

[Nati]

Good morning Vince,

today I have done three sessions the way you suggested. I have just come out of the last one which was "the strongest". in all three sessions i found myself already reporting back to you during the experience, and then reporting about reporting...
In this last session however this was somehow low key, underlying what i experienced but not disturbing it. Just a little background noise. In this last session there was definitely no self to be found. And it felt good to rest there. I would not call what i saw a vast space, it was more like an aliveness before my eyes. Small noises in the house were very welcome and part of it. I felt and still feel peaceful. I think I rested quite a while in there. The other two sessions were more influenced by thoughts, though also quite peaceful. (Forgot to look for a self.)
Resting this afternoon I was half asleep when a light grew quite strong before my closed eyes, accompanied by an rush of energy, heartbeating. It lasted a few seconds. No fear here but wonder. Nice feeling after that.

All in all this was a much calmer day, I feel once more relaxed and confident about what we are doing here. Big relief! It is amazing how these extremely different states of minds can exist in one body. And how fast they can change.

Thank you
love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

'morning Renate.
Ah, excellent.
Did i ask you already ? Is there anything that is permanent ? Any thing ? Any state ? Any experience ?
Is a calm peaceful experiencing any more or less a part of the range of human experiencing, than an unpleasant experiencing ?
Obviously one is preferable to the other. The desire to keep one, and the desire to finish the other are also part of the experiencing. Do those desires start with imagining something ? With a story ?
Does that story shape the experiencing ?
If we consider the experiencing before the desire (the story of an outcome) comes into play, we have what we label 'direct experiencing'. That is experiencing without the influence of thought.
Oh, and just to be clear here, i define the word (noun) experience as a memory of experiencing (verb). So if you are having an experience it was experiencing that is finished and is now remembered. If you are experiencing it is a current happening. Technically, it is impossible to describe experiencing, as by the time it is noticed it is already in the past. For practical purposes, we can snapshot experiencing and describe this memory, and if we LOOK we can see when thought enters the scene, and describe the effect it has on the experiencing.
Right now, do a quick scan of the body and identify any tension (particularly in the face).
Tell what happened after you found some tension ?

love

vince

[Nati]

Hello dear Vince,

let me share an experience I had today. I had an appointment with my doctor and I had to wait in a small room for quite a long time. And then i realized i was not waiting after all. i was sitting there, looking at a beautiful painting and really taking it in. Then I listened to all the noises, the heavy rain outside, the voices, the telephone. Everything was dear and close to me. And when after a while I had enough of it, I got up to leave, and there he was.

Did i ask you already ? Is there anything that is permanent ? Any thing ? Any state ? Any experience ?

I can see clearly that there is neither state nor experience nor any thing that is permanent.

Is a calm peaceful experiencing any more or less a part of the range of human experiencing, than an unpleasant experiencing ?

Pondering this question seems to twist my mind. On the one hand i can see they are equal: peaceful experiencing cannot in any way be "better" than, let's say anxiety. Because all these different types of experiencing exist.
Still i seem to resist the unpleasant experiencing. And I put a label on it: Not wanted.
But i have also known unpleasant experiences that i did not resist. Like when my mother died. I did not resist because i could feel the aliveness in them.

Do those desires start with imagining something ? With a story ?

The desire to change a state starts with the thought: This should not be. And i suspect that there is an underlying story/conditioning attached to that thought, like for instance concerning feelings of jealousy: Jealousy is an indication of immaturity.

Does that story shape the experiencing ?

Oh yes, it adds a lot of heaviness and stickiness. It is what turns mere pain into suffering.

Tell what happened after you found some tension ?

Well i actually found some tension in the face, and i immediately burst out laughing because i realized that it was my expectation to find tension that had created it. So this was a clear demonstration of how the story shapes the experience. I liked that.

thank you again :)
Renate

[Nati]

P.S.:
I must come back to put something right. Being close to my mother in her last days does not fall into the category of "unpleasant experiences". It was intense, demanding, exhausting, yes. But never unpleasant. So of course, I did not resist it.
It seems, that resistance comes up mostly with the thought I should not feel this way.

I just realize that my problems seem all to be connected with my self, whereas I perceive that other people often have "real problems" like having no money, a serious illness and other stuff of that sort. I often wonder how I would react if i found myself in a similar situation. But i think it is of no use, because i'm not in such a situation.

[Nati]

Good morning vince,

the following seems to have worked itself out in my sleep (without any I necessary). It came to me upon waking up. With a laugh.
The radical stand i take against my personhood is, in the way it manifests here, in itself an expression of the characteristics of this person. ( I can see there is harsh judgement, impatience and little compassion) Expressed and felt in this way it can only lead to more suffering. What is needed is a gentler looking combined with a playful and exploring attitude and a lot of humour when dealing with this person rather than a radical rejection. Harsh rejection leads to continuation of the believed "I thought". It is the "I" that is so tired of itself, not the awareness.

Something is softening.

Renate

P.S.: Also I realized that I find it hard to distinguish between pleasant deep emotional states and the real seeing.
Real seeing that there is no self and never was has not yet happened, even though the self can not be found.

[vinceschubert]

'morning Renate.

is, in the way it manifests here, in itself an expression of the characteristics of this person.

Beautifully SEEn. Yes the nature of what arises is a reflection of the conditioning that has been experienced.
Is "this person", anything other than this ?

What is needed is a gentler looking combined with a playful and exploring attitude and a lot of humour when dealing with this person rather than a radical rejection.

Although i totally agree with this, and it is very likely to happen, can you see this as a story now ?(although you may even see elements of it coming into existence already)

It is the "I" that is so tired of itself, not the awareness.

What is the "I", and what is the "awareness" ? Please describe them.

Something is softening.

Yes, beautiful. A new behavior, a new conditioning happening with repetition. A new neuronal pathway in the brain. Have you seen this video ? https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... Being.mp4

Also I realized that I find it hard to distinguish between pleasant deep emotional states and the real seeing.

Have you experienced "real seeing" ? ..or is there a story about it ?
What is 'real seeing' ?

It seems, that resistance comes up mostly with the thought I should not feel this way.

i would call this 'real seeing'. Well done. Of course, with the caveat that it was realized from experience and not from logic or from just parroting someone else.

I perceive that other people often have "real problems" like having no money, a serious illness and other stuff of that sort. I often wonder how I would react if i found myself in a similar situation. But i think it is of no use, because i'm not in such a situation.

Good story...

let me share an experience I had today. I had an appointment with my doctor and I had to wait in a small room for quite a long time. And then i realized i was not waiting after all. i was sitting there, looking at a beautiful painting and really taking it in. Then I listened to all the noises, the heavy rain outside, the voices, the telephone. Everything was dear and close to me. And when after a while I had enough of it,

Excellent. Yes, those new neuronal pathways are rapidly being established. Good stuff.

Jealousy is an indication of immaturity.

This may or may not be correct, but either way, it is a judgement laden story.
Any opinion is that. When you realize that you are having an opinion of any kind, then laugh as you recognize it as a story.
..and if you realize that you are having an opinion (judgement) about that opinion, then laugh even louder.
...and if you realize that you are having an opinion about the opinion, about the original opinion then wipe the tears from laughing (almost) hysterically.

love

vince