Thread for SD

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Does energy/volition require a separate self?".......No.

"It may be useful to directly notice experience of behaviour that could be labelled skillful/unskillful over next few days"......Question of ethics/morality arose as 'my' experience as an outcome of this inquiry (and other experiences of investigating nature of self/Reality) is increased sensitivity and sense of care around what could be labelled ethics/morality. Seems to be a natural and spontaneous development-mysterious and beautiful, tho still very much work in progress.......

"Does the idea of a separate me create more connection with others?".........No it doesn't. As effects of this inquiry permeate out into rest of life have been noticing softening of sense of self/other-there's just what's happening.

"Does the experience of getting out of one's way create more or less skillful action?".........When there's less focus on 'me', what 'I' think/want/don't want-which also seems to be an outcome of this process as the whole 'me' thing unravels-just what needs to be done (or not done) in skillful or positive terms seems much more apparent and energy flows (or not) in that direction. Feels more straightforward/clear/direct, less mental process.

"Does holding to the idea of a separate self entity contribute in any way to ethical behaviour?".........Doesn't contribute, no. May not preclude, but doesn't help and may even be an impediment depending on how one relates to the idea of a separate self.

"Is ethical behaviour natural, to the extent one sees things as they really are?"...........As was noted above, an outcome of more deep/clear seeing into the nature of reality seems to be an arising of care and consideration of everything-if there is no self then there is no separation, a sense of everything/everyone all being in the same boat as it were and so all deserving (might not be quite right word) of care and consideration. This sense flows naturally, it seems, into ethical/moral considerations/behaviour. All very much work in progress, still, as I said!

"If it isn't 'me' or 'I' in any fixed or separate way then what is it?".........Ha ha ha-dunno, it's mysterious and beautiful!

"Who, precisely, is this this significant contributor?".......Don't believe it's a 'who', it IS mysterious and beautiful and 'I' am grateful for it and whatever helps it manifest........

Thankyou,
S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

I've allowed this inquiry to stray much too far away from the realm of simple direct experience into some kind of Dharma discussion. We need to get firmly back into direct experience.

This investigation has nothing to do with Buddhist ideas, in fact, bringing any pre-formed conceptual understanding simply leads into the realm of - um - conceptualisation! Thoughts, views, beliefs, ideas, teachings, previous understandings etc etc etc are not the realm of this investigation. Be prepared to put them all to one side - otherwise all you're looking at is what you think you already know! A pointless exercise.

We are only interested in what is actually there - or not there - directly experiencable. Right now! without recourse to explanations.

Tune in with the visual aspect of direct experience, right now. Please write something as closely and faithfully expressing this DE. Do not include any commentary about DE.

Do the same with DE of sound.

Now sensations in the felt sense.

Is there any self-entity whatsoever to be found in any way, in direct experience? Yes? Or no?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Tune in with visual aspect of DE".......Seeing is happening, visual experience happening. Looking round the room, gaze resting on particular objects which mind names-'red cushion', 'old dog', 'inside the room', '
outside the window', 'yellow roses'. To some aspects of visual experience there is an emotional response i.e. pleasure when looking at yellow roses, snow on hilltops. The more I just sit here with visual experience, mind just settles and there is less naming or narrative, just experience of seeing. Not easy to write-feels like getting into narrative and away from DE.

"Do the same with DE of sound".........Hearing happening, sound being heard happening. Again, mind identifying/naming sound-wind, hum of computer, old dog whining. Again, emotional response to some sounds i.e. slight tension/upset in response to old dog whining. Just sitting with DE of sound and it becomes harder to say anything about it, it's just happening, being experienced.

"Now sensations in the felt sense".........Different 'textures' of sensation happening all at the same time-some areas where sensation feels very strong i.e. felt experience of sitting-contact with the cushions/ground, feeling of clothes against skin. Tightness, discomfort in what mind identifies/calls head area, also slight tremble/tension in areas identified as jaw and solar plexus . No definitive experience of inner/outer, just experience of sensations and what the mind does with that information.

There is no self-entity to be found in direct experience, just direct experience.

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

There are a number of references to naming things in this post, as in previous ones. What we want here is to get right down to raw sense experience. Let's explore whether 'naming' is part of this direct, immediate experience.


Try this:

With eyes closed, listen to the sound of a bell or gong. Is the name 'bell' or 'gong' (or image - or any form of recognition) actually part of the direct experience of the sound-sensation?


And this:

Look at your thumb. Keep looking at it and say the word 'thumb' out loud, over and over. IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE - NOT IN THOUGHT - what is the relationship between what you are looking at and the sound coming out of your mouth?


Now have a look at this - you've probably seen it before - an optical illusion picture that can be seen as an old woman or a young woman:

http://www.grand-illusions.com/opticalillusions/woman/

So in direct experience, are you looking at an old woman? Or a young woman? Or are there just marks on paper (or screen!) which are mentally interpreted as 'old woman' / 'young woman'?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"With eyes closed, listen to sound of bell or gong".....ok, got trusty dingers.......Just hearing sound happening, mind not actually adding anything-naming or image etc, but even if it had it would not have been part of direct experience of hearing sound.

"Look at your thumb".......Visual experience happening, sound experience (of hearing my voice) happening, felt sensations of speaking happening. They don't feel separate as all happening in direct experience, but could have been saying anything, really-no particular connection with what was being said and what was being seen.

"Now have a look at this".......Trippy! Just marks on screen that were being interpreted as old woman/young woman. Tho DE was just seeing image as visual experience, mind kept switching interpretation i.e. old/young. It wasn't identifying/interpreting in language, but didn't seem possible to just see random marks on screen, mind always interpreting in one way or another and making marks into 'something'-old woman/young woman.

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini!

.Just hearing sound happening, mind not actually adding anything-naming or image etc

Ok, this is direct experience

...Visual experience happening, sound experience (of hearing my voice) happening, felt sensations of speaking happening. They don't feel separate as all happening in direct experience, but could have been saying anything, really-no particular connection with what was being said and what was being seen.

Likewise, direct experience.

DE was just seeing image as visual experience

And this.

mind kept switching interpretation i.e. old/young. It wasn't identifying/interpreting in language, but didn't seem possible to just see random marks on screen, mind always interpreting in one way or another and making marks into 'something'-old woman/young woman.

Now you're going into interpretation / conceptualiation: the content of thought: not direct experience.

Are you getting clearer what is DE and what isn't? That recognition, naming and thought-content are not the same thing as the raw, unmediated data of the senses?

Sit quietly for a period of time, say 10 or 15 minutes. Tune in with sight. As you take in the experience of seeing images, tune in - in direct experience - not with what is being seen, but whatever is doing the seeing. No need to go into explanations interpretations.

Similarly try this with the felt body sense and with hearing.

The main thing is the actual experience in the moment.
But try to communicate something of the actual direct experience when posting back.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Are you getting clearer about what is DE and what isn't?".......DE clear at the time, but articulating an experience that doesn't have a narrative or language element is tricky. That was the case with reporting back from DE of the drawing-as soon as I'm describing experience it becomes less about present time DE and more about finding ways to describe DE in words, when actually in DE there are no words. Am finding it hard to do without it becoming-or sounding like-past tense description or retrospective narrative/commentary. Will keep trying tho!

"Sit quietly for a period of time.....tune in with whatever is doing the seeing/hearing/feeling".......Not possible to find a 'whatever' to tune into. Just seeing happening, hearing happening, feeling happening.....Wish I could find a 'whatever', but I can't.

S'dh.

[Hare]

"Sit quietly for a period of time.....tune in with whatever is doing the seeing/hearing/feeling".......Not possible to find a 'whatever' to tune into. Just seeing happening, hearing happening, feeling happening.....

:-)

Wish I could find a 'whatever', but I can't

Who wishes to find a 'whatever'?

Does direct experience need a 'whatever'? Does life need a 'whatever'?

What if there never was a 'whatever' in the first place and everything happens along just fine?


Yes agreed, DE is hard to express verbally, but it's often clear when thought-commentary is masquerading as DE - so keep going! It's good enough.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

Some reflections on your questions........
"Does DE need a 'whatever'? etc"..........If it's not possible to find a 'whatever' in DE then it obviously doesn't need one. If there is no 'whatever' in DE right now, then there could never have been one in the first place or ever be one in the future. I know this is not DE but reasoned argument etc, still it seems useful to consider and don't know how else to answer those questions.

"Who wishes to find a 'whatever'?".......No 'who'-just a thought based on slightly nihilistic low mood. Have been doing metta bhavana and have joined LU Loving Kindness FB group as an antidote.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

Some reflections on your questions........

I'm not asking for reflections, I'm asking you to LOOK. What is directly observable?

I know this is not DE but reasoned argument

Yes indeed. "If...then..." isn't direct looking.

just a thought based on slightly nihilistic low mood

Does "slightly nihilistic low mood" exist in DE? Or is it an interpretation in thought? (Like seeing some marks and mentally fixing them into an old woman..and then believing that they actually ARE an old woman'?)

What is actually there in DE? Sensations in the body? A story in thought that is identified with and believed? (The mood may be different by the time you get to read this, so go with whatever is there right now.)

Have been doing metta bhavana and have joined LU Loving Kindness FB group as an antidote.

Metta Bhavana works on a different level - all fine but not what we're doing here. We're not working here to antidote / substitute a thought or mood with a different thought or mood. We are breaking free of the tyranny of passing thoughts or moods that are believed as something fixed and solid: given power they just don't have! LOOK! DON'T ANTIDOTE! JUST LOOK! TAKE A LEAP INTO FREEDOM!

Directly watch, with keen interest, thoughts arising for 10 minutes. Stay alert. Don't identify with any of them.

Are they in any way fixed and solid in their nature?

There is nothing to lose except a mistaken assumption.

Is there some fear arising? You know what DE is, yet this reply is retreat back into thought. What's happening Sraddhadharini?

If you find fear, be curious. What are the sensations in the body? Is there a story in thought? Is it a true story? No need to disappear down the rabbit-hole of the story...just meet the fundamental energy with love, interest...

What comes up when I say that fear and love are two sides of the same coin?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

"LOOK. What is directly observable?".........That there is no 'whatever' that is 'doing' whatever is happening. Just experience happening-seeing happening, hearing happening, feeling happening, mental events happening. Nothing/no-one substantial/permanent/fixed in the midst of this.

"'If-then' is not direct looking".........How can a 'what if' question (esp about the past or future) be answered without it being reflective/speculative etc, as DE is about present moment?

"Does slightly nihilistic low mood exist in DE or is it an interpretation in thought?".......It was an interpretation in thought.

"What is actually there in DE?"........All sense experience esp taste as have just eaten some chocolate. Tightness behind forehead. Feeling of contraction and heaviness in heart area, tension in belly. No thoughts as such tho experience does not feel emotionally neutral.

"Just look, take a leap into freedom".......Weeping happening.

"Directly watch thoughts arising for 10 minutes".......Not many thoughts, seems to be the way when they are being watched. Ones that did arise were not in any way fixed or solid.

"What's happening, Sraddhadharani? .......What are the sensations in the body?".......No thoughts as such. Sensations in body as described above. Strong emotional tone which when invited, mind names as confusion, doubt, fear,fatigue, sadness. When not being named still feels like something over and above direct physical sensations, tho source cannot be found and when looked at directly is not fixed or solid. Does seem to have an effect, even so.

"No need to disappear down the rabbit hole of the story".......even without story or narrative above kind of stuff still has an effect on my experience, still a bit of a rabbit hole.

"Just meet he fundamental energy with interest and love".........over and over and over. Sensations changing-sighing happening, tightness in head abating, emotional tone less intense.

"What comes up when I say fear and love are 2 sides of the same coin?"........Feeling that mind names as tenderness and achey sensation in heart area.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

I saw this from another guide today: just want to share this in case it helps:

Looking is like being in a new, unfamiliar city, and having to find a specific address.

Have you ever visited a friend, or traveled to somewhere unfamiliar, and you're driving around, looking for the right exit, without a satnav or directions? You keep your eyes open, right? More importantly, you can't rely on your familiar landmarks. So you have to deal with the territory, because you can't rely on a mental map.

This is contrasting to commuting from your work to home. When you pull out on the main road, you're on autopilot. Some time later, you realise you're home. How did you get there? Were you paying attention to all of the road signs? Most likely, you used your mental map, and relied on that more than actively engage with the territory.

The first is real looking. The second is following thought and conceptualisation: what you (think you) already know.

When you look, you're dealing with the territory, you're not just blindly following a map. Looking is like driving in a new, unfamiliar, landscape, where you can't trust your usual landmarks.

What is directly observable?".........That there is no 'whatever' that is 'doing' whatever is happening. Just experience happening-seeing happening, hearing happening, feeling happening, mental events happening. Nothing/no-one substantial/permanent/fixed in the midst of this.

One thing to look out for is that we already know the 'right answers', but this can just become a new belief system in the mind - just a different map. We're not looking to substitute belief that there isn't a fixed self for belief that there is. It is that we see directly that belief is nothing more than a belief..we stop mistaking belief for reality!

"'If-then' is not direct looking".........How can a 'what if' question (esp about the past or future) be answered without it being reflective/speculative etc, as DE is about present moment?

Point taken! I do try to word questions carefully but it's a subtle thing..
I included this comment:

What if there never was a 'whatever' in the first place and everything happens along just fine?

because when we see that the separate self exists nowhere other than as a thought-construct, in the same moment it becomes apparent that it was always like that and in a sense nothing is different (many people find this funny!) This makes any fear / defenses that have been 'protecting' the belief seem misguided!

"Does slightly nihilistic low mood exist in DE or is it an interpretation in thought?".......It was an interpretation in thought.

Good.

Tightness behind forehead. Feeling of contraction and heaviness in heart area, tension in belly. No thoughts as such tho experience does not feel emotionally neutral.

Lets explore feelings a bit more.

Strong emotional tone which when invited, mind names as confusion, doubt, fear,fatigue, sadness. When not being named still feels like something over and above direct physical sensations, tho source cannot be found and when looked at directly is not fixed or solid. Does seem to have an effect, even so.

OK there is some identification happening here. What in direct experience do any of these labels "confusion, doubt, fear,fatigue, sadness" (or whatever is there right now) actually point to? Not the label, the unmediated experience. Not the map. The territory itself.

Sit for maybe 20 minutes. Get really interested in sensations such as contraction, heaviness, expansion and so on. Watch how thoughts / memories / stories join up with sensations to create feelings. Notice any sense of identification..a subtle sense of a 'me' that these feelings belong to...

Is there an observable 'me' 'having' whatever feelings arise? Don't assume anything! Don't go with the ready answer. Stay with not knowing, if that is what's happening. Explore experience like it's a completely new city you've never ever visited.

Report back.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,,

Description from other guide v. helpful, thankyou. Also watched Horizon programme about consciousness/the self which was recommended on someone else's Thread, that was v. good too.

"We stop mistaking belief for reality".......Yes even belief in the 'right' thing i.e. no fixed/separate/enduring self, whatever. This process feeling a bit of a muddle at the moment-genuinely not finding (when looking) an 'I', 'me', 'whatever' that is experiencing; remembering other similar experiences which have taken me to the same experience/conclusion/destination and created a 'map' that supports a belief around no-self and also still falling down various rabbit holes around story/emotion etc which uphold/defend/ create more sense of 'I', 'me', separation etc.

"What in direct experience do any of these labels point to?".......They don't point to anything-bit like exercise when you asked me to look at my thumb and say word thumb. Physical/felt/body experience happening, then the labels mind adds on-'sadness', 'confusion' etc. And (very strong) habit (tyranny!!) of listening to/believing mind around emotional stuff esp when physical sensations are uncomfortable.

"Watch how thoughts, memories, stories join up with sensations to create feelings"**...... Yes-this is what is happening! And there is some sort of identification-not a sense of 'me' that the feelings belong to exactly, but a sense that they are 'true' in some way, are what is 'really' going on, are relevant. Sitting quietly and looking I can see that this** IS what is actually happening- -sometimes harder in flow of life, especially when things happen unexpectedly and habitual reactions/responses kick in.

"Is there an observable 'me' having whatever feeling arise?"........Some strong physical sensation arising here esp tightness around area of forehead. Just sitting with this.....Strong sensation of heartbeat and tension/tightness in solar plexus. Question arising in thought-'WHAT IS GOING ON???' Not possible to answer. Just strong physical sensations continuing. Heaviness in chest area as well as other sensations already described. Still sitting......slight ache in ankles and knees. Physical sensations of breathing becoming paramount in experience. Tension in head lessening. Deep sighing happening. Tension in jaw, now, like a wee tremble. Dropping in question "Is there an observable 'me' having whatever feelings arise?" again.......no answer coming back.......Stronger sensations in heart area/solar plexus etc arising again. Settling down quite quickly. No words coming in response to question. Need to stop now, dogs to walk.

Thankyou,
S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

"We stop mistaking belief for reality".......Yes even belief in the 'right' thing i.e. no fixed/separate/enduring self, whatever.

This investigation isn't about belief at all. Direct seeing doesn't happen within the 'virtual reality' created by ideas and beliefs. It cannot ever happen in that realm! Thoughts and ideas jump in again and again, eagerly creating new maps, making connections etc etc etc. Shoring up their own virtual reality. It's endless. There is no problem with this, so long as we don't identify with it. Let it all rumble along!

This investigation is ONLY, purely, in direct experience. Get back to the meaningless sound of the word 'thumb'- or the marks on the page (never mind if it's an old woman or a young woman)!

remembering other similar experiences which have taken me to the same experience/conclusion/destination and created a 'map' that supports a belief around no-self and also still falling down various rabbit holes around story/emotion etc which uphold/defend/ create more sense of 'I', 'me', separation etc.

Don't go with the map! Keep exploring that unfamiliar city: direct experience. Enjoy exploring! How could you ever know what is there without truly looking?

....They don't point to anything-bit like exercise when you asked me to look at my thumb and say word thumb. Physical/felt/body experience happening...

This is direct experience..

then the labels mind adds on-'sadness', 'confusion' etc. And (very strong) habit (tyranny!!) of listening to/believing mind around emotional stuff esp when physical sensations are uncomfortable.

...and this isn't. Notice commentary taking over: 'standing outside' / explaining.

"Is there an observable 'me' having whatever feeling arise?"........Some strong physical sensation arising here esp tightness around area of forehead. Just sitting with this.....Strong sensation of heartbeat and tension/tightness in solar plexus. Question arising in thought-'WHAT IS GOING ON???' Not possible to answer. Just strong physical sensations continuing. Heaviness in chest area as well as other sensations already described. Still sitting......slight ache in ankles and knees. Physical sensations of breathing becoming paramount in experience. Tension in head lessening. Deep sighing happening. Tension in jaw, now, like a wee tremble. Dropping in question "Is there an observable 'me' having whatever feelings arise?" again.......no answer coming back.......Stronger sensations in heart area/solar plexus etc arising again. Settling down quite quickly. No words coming in response to question.

Mostly staying with DE here.
:-)

"Not possible to answer"..."No words coming in response to question"

...Nice!

Sit quietly for 20 minutes. Notice sensations and thoughts arising. Notice when they combine to create feelings (eg tight stomach + memory of difficult conversation...or whatever...) Is it possible to stay with the 'raw data' and not jump to the interpretation? Try!

Are feelings in any way 'solid': are they entities? Do they have 'own being': an existence beyond passing sensations / thoughts? Is it possible to find ANYTHING solid or unchanging?

Who 'has' feelings?

:-) Hare

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Enjoy exploring".......This is an interesting time to be exploring-lots of emotional triggers at this time of year, especially with death of close friend fairly recently. Staying with DE in midst of arising of memory, story and so on as best as can. Can't say it's enjoyable, but really examining/exploring how memory, story, thoughts etc and sensation combine to make 'emotion' seems to take the power or heat of emotion away much more and some habitual emotional responses are much less frequent. There are still sometimes very strong outbursts when it all happens too quickly to catch.

"Sit quietly for 20 mins"......Sitting quietly, eyes closed. Sound and physical sensation upermost in DE. Strong sensation of tightness between eyebrows and similar in solar plexus. Memory of song strongly associated with my friend Luke+ache in area of belly-memory first, then sensation. Sensation of ache moves to heart area. Song fades. Strong memory of feeling presence of my friend. Tightness in throat. Crying happening. Strong physical sensation in area of face-muscles contracted due to crying. Blowing nose happening and drinking of tea. Taste sensations and wetness of liquid in mouth being felt. More crying, Luke's name repeating in thought-hard to track which coming first-thought or crying. Aching in facial muscles. Sighing. Sensations in bladder mind recognises as needing to pee. 20 mins up.

Had a pee!

"Are feelings in any way solid?....Do they have 'own being'?......" Not solid, no. Combination of thought/memory/story and physical sensation which mind names as particular emotion-sadness, grief, whatever. Not anything separate or different from this-no 'own being'. Changes all the time-mental experiences change, sensations change, even around the same subject or trigger. Not static, tho experiences may feel similar or repetitive or 'stuck'.

"Who 'has' feelings?".......Feelings just happening and awareness of feelings also happening. That's all.

S'dh X.