The Gate

J sent you a PM re art K:)

Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for your PMs about art. Very interesting.

Good. The orange and the sultana and hearing exercises were a success.

It is important to be able to clearly distinguish thoughts and mental images from actual experience. The orange exercise is a clear demonstration of this. Note the difference between real orange in hand now and the mental image of one.

Do you see that a thought appearing is 'real' but never its contents? The thought of an orange was an actual thought but the mental image is still only thought, not a 'real object', not a 'reality?

. ..after all what is the mind? I cannot point to the mind, I cannot point to perception either, but that does not deny their existance does it? We can see images of the brain........it exists."

This is an interesting one. Perhaps all that can be said is that they appear to exist? There appears to be 'mind'. However, what is that? Apart from the issue that there are many contradictory theories about what 'mind is' there is the fact that it seems to owe its 'existance' to the idea that there is an actual entity ' mind', doesn't it? Bit like 'self'. That is assumed to be 'real' until we look for one.

There are theories about control. Cause and effect? 'This thing causes that thing to happen or be'. From science there is the belief that 'this causes that'. Billiard balls flying around in space sort of thing. The brain, perception, senses and many other ideas are bolted together into a thought-model of 'how things are' and presented as 'the reality'.. For our survival in the everyday sense thought can provide useful strategies but also, don't you think, the strong impression of a 'real world of seperate and hierarchical cause and effect'?

But as you saw, your paintings just happen. Did a 'brain' make them happen? You saw that 'you' don't control the paintings. Which is the truer statement...'the 'brain' caused them' or 'they happened by magic'? Are either or both 'true'?


Jonathan♥

Hi Jonathan,

What I wrote

We can see images of the brain........it exists."

I was inferring to the physical brain here. The fact that is does exist is indisputable. I was referring to brain scanning where images of brain activity can be seen.

As for the mind would it not be possible to say there is an intelligence happening.

But as you saw, your paintings just happen. Did a 'brain' make them happen? You saw that 'you' don't control the paintings. Which is the truer statement...'the 'brain' caused them' or 'they happened by magic'? Are either or both 'true'?

Neither statement is true.
The brain did not cause them.
There is no magic either!!

Kathryn :)

. We can see images of the brain........it exists."

I was inferring to the physical brain here. The fact that is does exist is indisputable. I was referring to brain scanning where images of brain activity can be seen.

So, sitting on the beach, does brain 'exist'? Is there any direct way of telling that? Apart from thinking 'it exists'? Here, now, does 'brain exist' other than as a thought?

Are 'my legs' 'here' if I am looking up at the sky?

Does 'sky' 'exist'? There is experience. It can be labelled or described as 'blue' and 'sky'. When you paint, are you thinking 'blue sky' or just painting? Does the sky 'exist'?
Or do thoughts just tack on the idea 'sky exists'?

The beach. Sand, stones too, maybe? Is it 'a beach' being 'experienced'? Or is 'beach' a label, like 'brain'? What is this actual experience of HERE, NOW? Is it nameable?

. As for the mind would it not be possible to say there is an intelligence happening.

It is possible to say this, to think this. I am not for a moment suggesting that there is no experience that can be labeled 'mind' Just that once a label is stuck firmly in place it is possible to imagine 'knowledge' of a 'thing' as represented by the label. Noticing the misleading nature of this thought-labeling is important as is the interest to 'look behind' the label. Does that sound fair?

Jonathan♥

So, sitting on the beach, does brain 'exist'? Is there any direct way of telling that? Apart from thinking 'it exists'? Here, now, does 'brain exist' other than as a thought?

No it is just a thought in this instance.

Are 'my legs' 'here' if I am looking up at the sky?

If i am looking at the sky the thought of legs is here. If i place awareness on my legs with my eyes closed they are detectable with feelings of warmth and tingling, which are also labels.

Or do thoughts just tack on the idea 'sky exists'?

Only as a label in thought and as a direct experience of a vast blue overarching with accompanying labels "blue" and "sky" and "overarching".

The beach. Sand, stones too, maybe? Is it 'a beach' being 'experienced'? Or is 'beach' a label, like 'brain'? What is this actual experience of HERE, NOW? Is it nameable?

The direct experience of a beach is the experience of different stimuli ..... with labels tacked. It is nameable only by the virtue of thought.

Kathryn

Hi Kathryn,


I'm guessing it's morning in NZ?

There's some very nice news. The other guides all agree that you have 'seen no self' and have thus gone through the Gateless Gate! Of course this just confirms what you already knew and I felt too. Congratulations! I am so pleased.


Our conversation here about 'no self' is at an end but this is really only a beginning and there is more investigation that can be done 'post gate'. It's entirely up to you. Even guiding others is a possibility at some stage.

It may take a day or so but if you want to let me know your Facebook name (or create a Facebook account and then let me know your FB name) I'll forward that and then you should receive an invitation to join LUNA (Liberation Unleashed New Arrivals group) and 'Unleashed' another LU Facebook group. These are good in terms of being able to link or follow conversations between the growing LU community.

Don't get a shock when your guiding thread here suddenly disappears. Once a person has 'seen', their guiding conversation is moved to the Archive section of LU Forum. Look out for a PM from LU admin and follow the instructions to join the FB groups. Also, any snags and you can always PM me. I am going to reply to your latest PM re Art anyway.

By the way my name on LU FB is Jon C Rice.

See you on the 'other side'.


Love

Jonathan.

Hey there good news :)
My FBI name is Kathryn Millard I don't use it much so am not very familiar with it but sure would enjoy further discussion. So see you there and if not I will pm you! Thank you very much for your kind guiding. Kathryn

You're very welcome Kathryn. It has been a pleasure.


Jonathan