Being at ease ready steady go..am I there yet?

[Dava]

So, just to be clear on this.

Are there any sensations, thoughts or actions that are made to happen by a "me" or an "I"

Have you found even a trace of a sensor, a thinker or an actor in Direct Experience?

[Lucid]

no, nothing in Direct Experience reveals a senser, thinker or do-er
these ideas of self/seer, do-er are being revealed as just perceptions based on constructs of thought
- w/a lot of old stories to support them

Direct Experience has no divisions/boundaries, separations that i can perceive at all

tremors move through now. subtle on the richter scale, but clearly speaking. that last line keeps repeating and the whole kingdom begins to crumble.

[Dava]

Superb.

This brings us to one of the more pesky ways in which the illusion of the separate self manifests.
The apparent process of choosing, in which the notion of a chooser making a choice can be found.

So lets see whether the function of choosing actually does exist.

I'll leave you with this experiment (bedtime this side of the pond)

1.Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, apple or orange, any two will do.

2. Look at each object. Feel your desire for one of the choices, then the other. Think about the qualities you like. Make any comparisons you wish. Weigh and balance the qualities of the two objects.

3. Count down from 5 then choose one of the objects.

Can Directly Experience a mental faculty doing the choosing?
Can you find the point at which an apparent choice is made?
Did anything arise that announced "I am the chooser?" If so, what does that choosing function look like?

In Direct Experience can you find a chooser that makes choices?

[Lucid]

Good night! or.. Good Morning! by the time you see this...

Can Directly Experience a mental faculty doing the choosing?
Can you find the point at which an apparent choice is made?
Did anything arise that announced "I am the chooser?" If so, what does that choosing function look like?

In Direct Experience can you find a chooser that makes choices?

i feel the mental faculty doing the deliberation, feel energies and stories connected to each option,
but then the countdown feels funny/silly because i know 'i' have already decided, or it has already been decided. as ive been getting clearer ive been feeling 'decisions' more than thinking i am making them.. it saves a lot of mental time, but still sometimes i feel confused about what to do, so not all in the clear.

i cannot find the point to when the choice was made, sometimes in retrospect i know it was made long ago or before i even decided to deliberate.
the decider is thoughts again. the knowing is in listening and seeing clearly.. there are many indicators of the 'choice' that is happening

stories divide the mind so. sometimes its hard to catch what is 'happening' before the choosing stories arise.
No 'chooser' in Direct Experience.

i am going to keep on this one through the evenings possibilities. thanks n blessings overflowing...

[Dava]

i know 'i' have already decided, or it has already been decided

How do you know this?
Where is this previous decision in Direct Experience?
Is this knowing of a previous decision another assumption?

as ive been getting clearer ive been feeling 'decisions' more than thinking i am making them.. it saves a lot of mental time, but still sometimes i feel confused about what to do, so not all in the clear.

How does this feeling of confusion manifest?
Does it manifest as a feeling in the way we clarified previously? (a sensation with a story (thought) attached)
What is it made of?

the decider is thoughts again.

Are you referring to a thought that arises that claims responsibility for the decision?

We can use the 3 step model again in this respect in the same way that we applied it to doing.

1. Thoughts about making a choice
2. A choice is made
3. Thought arises that assumes a link between 1 and 2

You mentioned that you are starting to feel decisions more than thinking you are making them. I understand where you are coming from to a certain extent, moving from a less cognitive process to something apparently more body based.
However, at this point we can't let anything escape the scrutiny of Direct Experience. It tells us exactly what's going on.
So look at the 3 step model again, but this time with feelings apparently in charge of a decision.

1. Feelings arise in relation to making a choice
2. A choice is made
3. Thought arises that assumes a link between 1 and 2

Can you find any function whatsoever in Direct Experience that can claim responsibility for making a choice or decision?

[Lucid]

How do you know this?
Where is this previous decision in Direct Experience?
Is this knowing of a previous decision another assumption?

the "previous" decision in direct experience is quite subtle - it is definitely a body feeling/ sensation.. a 'knowing' that cannot exactly be described with words, but comes before thought can get its claws in or claim ownership of 'decision/ chooser'... when it is not felt/ received early on due to busy mind and there are conflicting thoughts, then confusion ensues (as described below)

How does this feeling of confusion manifest?
Does it manifest as a feeling in the way we clarified previously? (a sensation with a story (thought) attached)
What is it made of?

this confusion manifests as internal struggle.. a literal feeling of tugging at the center. thoughts come first then this feeling.
this confusion is made of conflicting thoughts that get noisy to the point where i cannot hear the still "voiceless voice' that would gently lead me to the thing that is 'happening' , instead thought is claiming power here and encouraging a debate, then thoughts compile as they will.

Are you referring to a thought that arises that claims responsibility for the decision?

yes.

Can you find any function whatsoever in Direct Experience that can claim responsibility for making a choice or decision?

no, just the stories of thoughts. there is no function in direct experience that can accurately claim any responsibility for choices made.

[Dava]

Okay, thanks for clarifying that Lucid.

You have been most diligent in your efforts throughout this investigation, through the various exercises and experiments, and your willingness to just keep looking, looking, looking has kept this process flowing in the right direction.

Is it clear to you at this point that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be, and that any such notion of a separate self is nothing but an illusion?

[Lucid]

Hi Dava
thank you for your vigilance & appreciation.
it is clear to me at this point that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be. Any such notion of a separate self is indeed, illusory - based on stories/ thoughts, & limited perceptions

humbly flowing with what is
lucid

[Dava]

Okay then.

Please answer the following questions, which serve as a basis from which to summarise and express your seeing.

1) Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I", at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Do you have anything to add about this investigation?

[Lucid]

Okay then.

Really!? Feeling excited nervousness like I'm up for a test! Ha!

Please answer the following questions, which serve as a basis from which to summarise and express your seeing.

1) Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I", at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I am me is a mythical story that has been told, a fine collection of fantasy and legend which can be entertained or seen through. No there is no separate entity, no separate self. Just consciousness at play in many Perceived roles and forms.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In my experience the myth of separate self starts as soon as we are born and given a name and a birthdate, time starts ticking and there are many things that cultured reality expects one to be due to years/aeons of conditioning. We learn of difference and responsibility. We start out just mirroring it seems and then believe that this is who we are..someone who smiles at this and cries at that and loves this and hates that and needs this and is different than that.. Lines of separation drawn on every level of being,, so much so that we get to believing that we suffer alone and that there is not enough for everyOne. Ugh. Sickness. The look in babies eyes has taught me a lot.
Having come from years of blinded sickness I've slowly been waking up to the truth of this reality. Now I see and feel in all ways that we are one, inextricably connected. There is no beginning and no end to any story, there is no separating ’yours' from 'mine.' These perceived bodies are ephemeral manifestations of consciousness, thoughts, senses collected into a density of vibration that thought then wants to claim as 'real/all it's own. I see how thought/ ego is divisive. I understand that it ( the illusion of separate self) needs to be for the play of the universe to go on. We all need to wear the costume and say the lines that our role is assigned but when we believe that that's what we are and that's all we are, separate from the rest of the cast (including the stage of the earth herself) the that's when suffering begins. Seeing is scary at first as it tears down the show that we are considering reality. It's always sad when the show ends.. All those precious visions and feelings gone to waste! I now see that the illusion of the separate self is just part of the fun of being alive - unless we actually believe in it. This self is just a conglomeration of senses lorded over by thought and it's construct-ive story making. Where ''my" vibrations begin and yours end is wholly indistinguishable.. We are just life flowing as it will.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

It feels freeing and weighty to see this. I've been studying relative truths for years, but to truly see/ feel them on a visceral level is dismaying as I said because even things that were liberating 'truths' to realize early on could be broken down into even less for ego to cling to..until it became naught- " I don't know anything, I don't own anything, I am not responsible for anything, can't claim brilliance or wisdom.. " It's just all very simple. Now, I'm being with what is, a gentle subtle freedom from trying to figure things out, into just allowing and being. I can still celebrate life and live fully, as is and has been my mantra, but there is no big effort, or trying around it, just an allowing. Before I started this dialogue I still felt like I was a unique channel of being who had to work hard to control my fate, to use my gifts, to make the most of my time. Based on past experiences I felt like I needed to clarify and define my offering to the world as was required of the blessings that I've received on my path of healing. There is an ease now, an even greater sense of trust and flow. There is more quiet for the thing that IS happening (what may have been a struggle to decide before) to just arise and show the way. In NDST and NVC I've gotten many keys to help be at ease in challenging communication, hearing what's really underneath someone's struggle with 'you', the situation or life. There is good stuff and work involved there, which is fine but as I just trust and flow now more so from the results of direct pointing, I can allow what's moving thru someone to be. Just as I can allow what's ever flowing thru 'me' to just be instead of story-ing it and therefore getting caught up in repetitive patterns that are not harmonious or flowing, traps for life force energy. Really really seeing all of the guises of thought, story, ego has been enlightening. Oh and I don't mean enlightening like I once thought great fluffy cloud seat lightning bolt super psychic powers and no more bothersome mind stuff... I'm not claiming to be enlightened .. But this being has become more truly lucid.
Sensing is more keen. Mind stuff is still there but i can see beyond the veil so nothing is so weighty. There is a lightness and ease and a sense still of being in motion, of uncovering all that IS with sharper newer tools that make even the old tools (teachings) have a new shine. The tantras, Nisargadatta,etc.. Are making more sense. There were many truths i accepted and many I argued with but now I see and understand the language, what it is pointing to in a less direct way. Things around me feel closer somehow. I'm Trusting life...

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Really diving into the senses and the stories attached to them, feeling in/out, seeking for boundaries, all things ending up connected to the next thing. I still felt yesterday while driving, a getting into construct mind and thinking 'but all this is real...' But then I realize this I that thinks that is not so how could everything else be.. . Who is this telling these stories..? Nothing has quite felt like a 'pushing over'. I think I was close to this already, or maybe I'm not there yet, but the truths I have been resisting have been revealed, resistance dispelled by the direct pointing to what is, what is not.. Impossible to refute direct experience, once i was clued in (a couple of times) to what direct experience IS. The seeing of the hiding of ego/ story in so many guises was a wow. Thank you thank thank you.. Calmly Excited for the continued unfolding...

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Wow. Ok. Decision and choice are things that thought will try to take control of or credit for but really it just Happens..life is moving as it does and we might question ourselves, or things that are happening and stop ourselves up stumbling in confusion but the flow IS and one way or another we will end up where we are supposed to be. Much could be easier if we were just allowing life to have its way.
When we are 'asleep' or resistant to the way reality is leading us then maybe we don't get there quite as soon or as easily but life will get us where it wants to. The will of the universal makes things happen. There is a feeling of ease when we are flowing as life wants us to, in general. Sometimes though, if we have been going the wrong way, not heeding our truth then it seems accidents, suffering or sickness will happen that will breakdown resistance and open one up to seeing what is being called for, what one is being called to, and then the flow continues smoothly again. Maybe sometimes life wants us to become sick or suffer or face near death situations in order to wake up. I do think though that there are often other branches or opportunities on the path that came before that would have led one the same way earlier. So, not quite free will but I think an individual will has some merit in that it can resist reality, resist waking up, and not seeing things for what they are - get stuck, stagnate for some time.. This is what the idea of free will seems to get us. Or does life want this too to happen so that a certain resilience or understanding grows!? I think both cases are true. I think intention will draw a certain energy out from us or to us but it is not the 'decider' of what happens.. If we are truly listening for our intention then no doubt we will tap into the desire that life has for us and be guided, making an intention that life would choose. Control is something we certainly do not have except over the expression of our emotions to some extent, but they will arise either way, situations will arise either way and we cannot change that but do have response-ability based on our level of awake-ness, acceptance of reality. I am responsible for being open and awake to life. Things will happen as they will and they can motivate me to action , I can ignore them until there is pain or sickness, I can gratefully accept and celebrate or I can graciously accept and look to see what is really going on,, what am I being led to learn or experience?
For instance I lost everything in a fire, accepted the loss, cut my hair, went to a festival, despite resistance, met my darling, travelled with him for a while and then decided I should keep some cool and get my own place, soon after that place burned down so I moved Into the same house as my darling, we made a baby and are still happy with each other and an awesome child 16+ years later. I could have totally freaked out, stayed in LA and tried to regain all I had but I let the wind take me, obviously after I let the wind take me I could have kept riding that but I thought I should stay cool and not fall too hard, resisting this great force that compelled us together.. Well nature had other plans there too.. It's so obvious we were supposed to be together and bring this amazing child into the world and work together to create beauty and help each other to awaken to our truest selves. So grateful.these are the most obvious examples of life force having its way, but the are many little ones everyday.. From timing to choices that don't necessarily feel like what I would have chosen but then make sense later,.. All these things things that we say "it's so weird" about are actually the most in sync things, thinking of someone seeing them, getting a work cancellation that might be a bummer but then it turns out that it means I can go to my nephews birthday celebration! I trust life, it's always working out...:)

6) Do you have anything to add about this investigation?

oh my i feel like I've said a million words when the true experience of it all really feels beyond words... It is an elusive state at first, that's for sure for me.. A see saw of this that...but I'm steadying in towards the center that is now and just watching the ride with amusement

[Dava]

Thanks Lucid,

I understand that it ( the illusion of separate self) needs to be for the play of the universe to go on. We all need to wear the costume and say the lines that our role is assigned but when we believe that that's what we are and that's all we are, separate from the rest of the cast (including the stage of the earth herself) the that's when suffering begins.

Does this mean that the illusion of separation is necessary?
You seem to suggest that it is and then go on to point out its pitfalls.
Can you say from Direct Experience that the illusion of the separate self is necessary for the universe to go on?
Could it not be that it is fine just as it is, before any illusions are conjured up and bought into?

I think I was close to this already, or maybe I'm not there yet

Can you see that the separate self is an illusion?
Can you see this in Direct Experience?

Control is something we certainly do not have except over the expression of our emotions to some extent, but they will arise either way, situations will arise either way and we cannot change that but do have response-ability based on our level of awake-ness, acceptance of reality.

How does this responsibility work?
Is there a one who is able to decide to respond in a certain way?

Best wishes,
Dave

[Lucid]

Greetings,
Wow..uh, I'm saying that a lot..;). I had some pretty intense dreams last night regarding this seeing, if i can share?..I'll give just the gists. the first was cool.. At a pool party, throwing stuff at each other that would turn into other things midair. People coming in and out of the water transformed..one thing leads to another I think by inxs as the soundtrack. The next more disturbing where basically mind went straight from dream into waking thought as I had a memory of a traumatic experience that I haven't actually had memory of before. At least it seemed like memory, but anyways was followed by physical pain associated withy the body ares involved.. Then my mind telling me how clear it is that emotions are stored in this body, that this body is real, that memory and past events are real as they affect the now in so many ways. I sat I meditation really looking to see if iam real.. Am still clear that this separate I is unreal, that separation is indeed illusion. But I cannot refute the direct experience of physical pain connected to memory in this form that I call I. I see there is a bodymind that ends care and attention in this existence, I also understand that I am much more than that.. I feel the wholeness of consciousness but it is so up graspable when physical pain demands immediate attention. What happened from there is that I wrote out a great workshop for moving this stuff and seeing deeper beyond the story but also using the story for this embodied life's healing and evolution. I see clearly that people need to heal their stuff before they can see clearly. I am not feeling traumatized, I am still steady and at ease, but I've felt this call and reminder for this dream and it's immediate awaking thoughts. It's the thoughts that followed those that are stopping me up and making me feel like I'm almost back at square one here with you.

These things are connected to the first question here. I do not think that the illusion of anything is necessary for the universe to go on. It does seem to be necessary for consciousness to forget its fullness as it contracts into being this little experience. I've also taken it to be the goal of this experience to remember ourselves as fullness of consciousness .. But without denying the experience of being in a perceived body. As stated, the suffering, the asleep, the numbness of forgetting is thick and deep in the forgetting of true self, of oneness.
I have been working on how we teach this to children, how we can allow children to stay in their natural state and not teach them how to go to sleep in a limited construct of a world and accept that's all there is. I do think we could be born and stay knowing that we are this and that... This is all new thinking though, so I'm not trying out think on it too much but allowing it to come..

I think our responsibility works in waking up to the truth and living life as it is flowing thru and not stopping it up with story and illusion, resistance or numbness.

Thank you so much for your continued patience and reflection. Of course if the dreams stuff is outside of your scope, just ignore it and I hope you can tell here where I adds see your questions without the quotes this morning,. I only had a few minutes..be free again midday.

[Dava]

At least it seemed like memory, but anyways was followed by physical pain associated withy the body ares involved.. Then my mind telling me how clear it is that emotions are stored in this body, that this body is real, that memory and past events are real as they affect the now in so many ways. I sat I meditation really looking to see if iam real.. Am still clear that this separate I is unreal, that separation is indeed illusion. But I cannot refute the direct experience of physical pain connected to memory in this form that I call I. I see there is a bodymind that ends care and attention in this existence, I also understand that I am much more than that.. I feel the wholeness of consciousness but it is so up graspable when physical pain demands immediate attention.

Okay, no one is asking you to refute any experience related to bodily sensation, pain or otherwise. Directly Experiencing the body simply puts you in touch with the reality of what's happening rather than an assumption about the reality. There's certainly nothing assumed or unreal about unpleasant sensations as these. In this respect, the body's need for care and sustenance are real.

I would wholeheartedly recommend Reginald Ray's 'Touching Enlightenment' for dealing more fully with this territory of the body. You can probably have a glance at the first chapter on Amazon. It has helped many people I know.


Referring to an earlier answer of yours I just picked up on.

Much could be easier if we were just allowing life to have its way.
When we are 'asleep' or resistant to the way reality is leading us then maybe we don't get there quite as soon or as easily but life will get us where it wants to. The will of the universal makes things happen. There is a feeling of ease when we are flowing as life wants us to.

Is life REALLY an "it" that can "have its way" Or is life just being, just "life-ing" without any reference to human will, without any resemblance to human will, without any refined, subtle projection of the human will (at a subtle distance) running any kind of show?
Remember we're referring to Direct Experience here.

Also, can you give me any day to day examples from current experience of how decisions and choice don't exist, something more recent. Don't be afraid to repeat yourself here.

[Lucid]

Hi,
thank you so much for your response. i apologize for the many typos and the confused heat of that last one. Definitely some big stuff moved thru yesterday, it was amazing to watch and ride the flow actually. A lot happened. Im so much clearer now on lots of things and feel relieved. In retrospect, a similar thing has happened once or twice before on the path where as i came into a lighter, more clear or open spot then ego/thought seems to lash back and roar up with lots of noise or darkness to 'challenge' the process. In retrospect i also enjoy riding the waves but the ride yesterday was challenging for a bit. Moving forward...

I would wholeheartedly recommend Reginald Ray's 'Touching Enlightenment' for dealing more fully with this territory of the body. You can probably have a glance at the first chapter on Amazon. It has helped many people I know.

great. got the book. it looks awesome. loved the opening. appreciate the referral.

I

s life REALLY an "it" that can "have its way" Or is life just being, just "life-ing" without any reference to human will, without any resemblance to human will, without any refined, subtle projection of the human will (at a subtle distance) running any kind of show?
Remember we're referring to Direct Experience here.

ah, yes, thanks for this clarification. i do tend to anthropomorphize things. ha. not that the universe is a thing
either.
ok, so yes, nice perspective adjustment.. the universe is just life-ing it is not acting as some childhood understanding of god to get me to do what 'it' wants. i think there is a natural flow tho that can be (somewhat/temporarily) resisted or flowed with more ease and grace - this is a sense that comes from direct experience. i guess the whole idea of a 'show' being run here in human land and characters/aspects being investigated by the universe IS more of a concept than truly direct experience. ive worked as an actress lots of my life.

Recent day to day examples from current experience of how decisions and choice dont actually exist;
everyday i am blessed to be in 'flow' at some point .. i teach and perform and this is where it shows up most.. i can plan all i want and rehearse but most of the time its really all about being OPEN to who is there, what energy is showing up, flowing with specifics of time space and details of injury (students), technology (shows) all of the many factors that are clearly out of my control will dictate what is actually going to happen and i just need to listen and stay receptive in order to take care of people the best and feel in alignment/ good with what happens.

this seems so trivial but apt. -for brunch today i knew what i was going to get, it appeared as a sense as soon as we said lets go to 'chow' and then when we got there i saw other things that looked alluring but i knew what i was getting so didnt let hunger and amount of choices befuddle me as can happen.

there is a gorgeous dress that i wanted after brunch but it was too expensive and then i saw it had damage (that i can easily fix) and when i showed them they gave me a friendly discount - decision made and not by me directly!

the omniscient perspective shows the way, the contracted easily gets confused. it can seem overwhelming, all there is to do until i just start DOING things and then they are effortlessly getting done. like now, the floors are calling me..

i hope ive given enough examples, i will keep watching - there was something else today in this realm that i noticed i dont usually notice without this awareness on, i think its like that alot - things taken for granted that are things we might think of choosing or deciding... ah, all things could be this way, and the mind could be more at ease. historically i have had challenges with decisions and choice as i am keen to the many possibilities, things that could happen and my mutli faceted personality could be happy with a lot of things, so ive spend much time and lists deliberating .. but its all easing and this practice of looking is helping further.
thanks and blessings to you
lucid

[Dava]

got the book. it looks awesome. loved the opening. appreciate the referral.

Great stuff, I think it will be an excellent resource for you.

ah, yes, thanks for this clarification. i do tend to anthropomorphize things. ha. not that the universe is a thing
either.
ok, so yes, nice perspective adjustment.. the universe is just life-ing it is not acting as some childhood understanding of god to get me to do what 'it' wants. i think there is a natural flow tho that can be (somewhat/temporarily) resisted or flowed with more ease and grace - this is a sense that comes from direct experience.

Is there anyone or anything that actually resists or flows, or is there just resistance or flow?
Is there a choice involved in whether to resist or flow with what is?

One way to have look at this is to sit quietly, and just rest your attention on the breathing process, just as it is.
At some point your attention will find itself away from the breath, you notice, and rest attention on the breath once more, and so on.
In this case, do you actively decide to become distracted from (resist) the breath or does it just happen?
Do you actively notice your distraction and then rest back on the breath again or does it just happen?
Is there anyone or anything who watches the breath, resists the breath or flows with the breath in Direct Experience?

everyday i am blessed to be in 'flow' at some point .. i teach and perform and this is where it shows up most.. i can plan all i want and rehearse but most of the time its really all about being OPEN to who is there, what energy is showing up, flowing with specifics of time space and details of injury (students), technology (shows) all of the many factors that are clearly out of my control will dictate what is actually going to happen and i just need to listen and stay receptive in order to take care of people the best and feel in alignment/ good with what happens.

Are you in flow or is there just flowing?
Can you choose to be open and receptive or is openness and receptivity just something that happens?
If you are choosing to be open or receptive, is that truly openness or receptivity?