The Gate

Hi Sarah,

I have been trying to look more than think. It's difficult because when I try to really look, not much is forthcoming! But then just as I feel I'm going to give up, I have another small insight. I really didn't think I would post anything tonight, but then I seemed to get another realisation which puts me a step closer I think....,

I've been keeping this notion of "I being just another thought" simmering in the background for a while and then this idea presented itself....

If memories are just thoughts called memory thoughts, and we know that memories fade as we get older, then why does "I" seem to be just as strong all the way through life. There are only two solutions to this problem.

The first solution is the conventional one where "I" is not just a thought but is actually the real me, unchanging and consistent. But I have seen that there is another quite feasible possibility where the thought "I" gets constantly renewed with every thought, and therefore there is a different "I" created with every thought that requires an attachment. In other words the "I" that was me 20 years ago or even 20 seconds ago is not the same "I" that I think I am now!!

But which senario is true ? Maybe it doesn't matter! The important thing here is to see that things can be seen from another perspective and understand that what I thought was set in stone is now brought into question.

I'll work on this for a bit I think .

Another thing I have noticed is regarding decisions and who or what is in control? I can tentatively say that decisions seem to just happen. My only grounds for saying this is that when I try and still thought, and be more present, I can watch things happen with more clarity. In other words, there is no background noise confusing or masking what's going on. I looked at eye movement to keep it simple. I tried to see what decides to look at one object, then change to another? The answer is that I couldn't see anything making this choice, only an attachment being made after the event! This takes the form of acknowledgement of a change followed by thought claiming responsibility for the change!
It's extremely fast and very subtle but there is definitely a gap between desision and claiming ownership! I think I have to see this in action on a bigger scale to be convinced! So I'll keep looking.

Sorry no quoting on this one because it's from a tablet and it's just a right pain to get the quoting thing to work !!

Rich

Morning Rich

I have been trying to look more than think. It's difficult because when I try to really look, not much is forthcoming! But then just as I feel I'm going to give up, I have another small insight.

LOL. Yes – just relax! Notice thoughts 'wanting' now!

In other words the "I" that was me 20 years ago or even 20 seconds ago is not the same "I" that I think I am now!!

Fantastic noticing! Does the real you need verification? Does the real you need thinking about? Does the real you need constant and new attachments? What notices that thoughts are being thought? What notices attachments being added moment by moment?

Another thing I have noticed is regarding decisions and who or what is in control? I can tentatively say that decisions seem to just happen. My only grounds for saying this is that when I try and still thought, and be more present, I can watch things happen with more clarity. In other words, there is no background noise confusing or masking what's going on. I looked at eye movement to keep it simple. I tried to see what decides to look at one object, then change to another? The answer is that I couldn't see anything making this choice, only an attachment being made after the event! This takes the form of acknowledgement of a change followed by thought claiming responsibility for the change! It's extremely fast and very subtle but there is definitely a gap between desision and claiming ownership! I think I have to see this in action on a bigger scale to be convinced! So I'll keep looking.

Brilliant! Now expand it out! Verify elsewhere. Keep looking for the controller of anything.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

You asked me,

Well what do you see when you look? Do you see ‘anything’ or ‘nothing’?

I've tried to look, and have a few observations to share. It never quite comes out the same when I write it out, but I'll try to explain what I've found. It sounds a bit like thoughts, but really it's mostly looking. It losses a bit when it's written out ....

What notices? Noticing is going on but I can't identify what is doing the noticing. I've looked quite a bit and it seems to be thoughts happening, perhaps forming a story, and then the fact that a "thought story" has occurred is noticed by what feels like more thought. That could make sense because thought likes to attatch ownership so in order for noticing to be accredited to something thought attaches it to "I".

But it could equally be that noticing is happening by another means but thought claims it so fast that the real noticer is missed. In support of this possibility, there does appear to be a slight gap between noticing and thought saying " I noticed that !" But how can this be verified? And the fact that a gap is noticed begs the question "why was there a gap, and what noticed it".

I don't know what this is and I don't know how to look for it. Noticing does happen, but without thought, there is no comment about it. The only thing that pats me on the back and says " well done for noticing that !", is thought.

It seems like this is the same process as for desision making.

I can't see a me making desisions and I can't definitively say I can see a me noticing anything. Yet decisions are made, and noticing does happen. So, what's the nature of whatever is deciding and noticing?

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, I tend to note things down as they come and then paste them into a post at the end of the day. Hope this is OK.

Take care,

Rich.

Hi Rich

But it could equally be that noticing is happening by another means but thought claims it so fast that the real noticer is missed. In support of this possibility, there does appear to be a slight gap between noticing and thought saying " I noticed that !" But how can this be verified? And the fact that a gap is noticed begs the question "why was there a gap, and what noticed it".

Well – where does attention go? Where it likes and when it likes? Also is hearing and seeing happening all the time – even though attention may well be somewhere else? Thoughts have not claimed THAT particular doing – do you see that? Noticing and doing can be happily carrying on, with thoughts rattling about something completely different! Do you see that? Thoughts don’t claim that doing either! HOWEVER – awareness knows all that is happening – doesn’t it?

I don't know what this is and I don't know how to look for it. Noticing does happen, but without thought, there is no comment about it. The only thing that pats me on the back and says " well done for noticing that !", is thought.

I don't know is good! So – the thing that’s wants to notice and explain – is that thought? And the bit the notice’s and doesn’t need an explanation…….but it all happens seamlessly anyway………does that need looking for – or was it there all the time?

It seems like this is the same process as for desision making. I can't see a me making desisions and I can't definitively say I can see a me noticing anything. Yet decisions are made, and noticing does happen. So, what's the nature of whatever is deciding and noticing?

Well noticed! Is that thought again wanting a nice easy explanation? Notice how much just happens. Notice thought doing the same – just happening. What is the difference between them? Is there a difference between them?

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, I tend to note things down as they come and then paste them into a post at the end of the day. Hope this is OK.

Of course!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Hope you are not getting fed up of my ramblings, because I've got more .....

Well – where does attention go? Where it likes and when it likes? Also is hearing and seeing happening all the time – even though attention may well be somewhere else? Thoughts have not claimed THAT particular doing – do you see that? Noticing and doing can be happily carrying on, with thoughts rattling about something completely different! Do you see that? Thoughts don’t claim that doing either! HOWEVER – awareness knows all that is happening – doesn’t it?

Yes hearing and seeing are happening all the time. I looked at this tonight and realised the difference between thought and awareness. As I sat, I could feel the touch of the chair, see the room around me, hear the sound of the central heating pump - all simultaneously. Yet with thought, it's one thought at a time, one label at a time, one comentry. It's not possible to think two thoughts at the same time or access two simultaneous memories etc. This is a major difference between thought and awareness. So yes, I see awareness knowing all that is going on simultaneously, and that thought is just another one of those things. Because I've now recognised there is a difference between thought and awareness, I get how things are noticed.

Well noticed! Is that thought again wanting a nice easy explanation? Notice how much just happens. Notice thought doing the same – just happening. What is the difference between them? Is there a difference between them?

Seems like thought likes to wrap everything up in a nice explanation package. You are right. Thought just happens and noticing just happens, only the focus of attention changes.

I don't know is good!

Is this because the whole point is to see things the way they are and not try to reason it out or explain things? Just see it and accept it.

It's all getting a bit tricky now. Had a little bit of fear the other day but it went as soon as it arrived, so no big deal probably.

Take care,
Rich.

Hi Rich

Yes hearing and seeing are happening all the time. I looked at this tonight and realised the difference between thought and awareness. As I sat, I could feel the touch of the chair, see the room around me, hear the sound of the central heating pump - all simultaneously. Yet with thought, it's one thought at a time, one label at a time, one comentry. It's not possible to think two thoughts at the same time or access two simultaneous memories etc. This is a major difference between thought and awareness. So yes, I see awareness knowing all that is going on simultaneously, and that thought is just another one of those things. Because I've now recognised there is a difference between thought and awareness, I get how things are noticed.

YES! Lovely! You see thought is another arising within? Sit with this.

Is this because the whole point is to see things the way they are and not try to reason it out or explain things? Just see it and accept it.

What else is an option? How can things be any other way than how they are? Do you see this? How can a thought change what is – other than can suffering?

It's all getting a bit tricky now. Had a little bit of fear the other day but it went as soon as it arrived, so no big deal probably.

Have I sent you a fear exercise? Ill put it in just in case!

In order to know fear we have to know resistance. Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’. Turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.
What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought?
The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

What else is an option? How can things be any other way than how they are? Do you see this? How can a thought change what is – other than can suffering?

You are right about not being able to change anything. Things are the way they are ! I arrived at this by going down probably the same route everyone else does in that my first reaction was "of course things can be changed, that's how progress is made, and how important tasks get done!". But, when I looked at it again, I realised that nothing can be any different to the way it is right in the present moment. So if there was a hole in the roof then that would be how it was for that instant. The hole would need repairing, and during the repair it would be half repaired, and after the repair there would be no hole, but over the course of the roof repair task, each present moment was just as it was.

Christ I just read that back and then felt close to tears, where did that come from?

Thanks for the exercise on fear, I will try that out next time fear comes up. After reading it, I realised perhaps that is the way other emotions are too - just mind labeling sensation with a tag so that next time that sensation comes up it has a name, happiness, sad, fear, etc. Perhaps love too? I don't know.

Feel like I've realised a few more things about the way things are recently. Where do we go from here?

Take care,

Rich

Hi Rich
How do you feel now?

You are right about not being able to change anything. Things are the way they are ! I arrived at this by going down probably the same route everyone else does in that my first reaction was "of course things can be changed, that's how progress is made, and how important tasks get done!". But, when I looked at it again, I realised that nothing can be any different to the way it is right in the present moment. So if there was a hole in the roof then that would be how it was for that instant. The hole would need repairing, and during the repair it would be half repaired, and after the repair there would be no hole, but over the course of the roof repair task, each present moment was just as it was. Christ I just read that back and then felt close to tears, where did that come from?

See this now – how thoughts are forever trying to get you out of the present moment. There is no malice in this – they are simply trying to protect and look after ‘you’! So every time this is notice – smile! :) or laugh! What wants to follow thought content – anything? Or just habit?

Thanks for the exercise on fear, I will try that out next time fear comes up. After reading it, I realised perhaps that is the way other emotions are too - just mind labeling sensation with a tag so that next time that sensation comes up it has a name, happiness, sad, fear, etc. Perhaps love too? I don't know.

OK – so test – and yes just replace the word fear for whatever comes up! BUT be aware of thoughts wanting to ‘do’ and ‘fix’! Thoughts like doing and fixing!

Feel like I've realised a few more things about the way things are recently. Where do we go from here?

What else do you need to know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

I feel fine now thanks. The emotional bit has passed, it was a bit weird though - I still don't know why I felt like that. Anyway no worries, it's just another thought, another emotion to watch pass overhead...

See this now – how thoughts are forever trying to get you out of the present moment. There is no malice in this – they are simply trying to protect and look after ‘you’! So every time this is notice – smile! :) or laugh! What wants to follow thought content – anything? Or just habit?

Is it just habit to follow thought content? Can it really be that the world is just there being the world, and thought just arises from nowhere?

Attachment to thought is through habit and learning. Thought itself seems to be so tailored to my past experience with everything I've ever done, and everyone I've ever met that it gives the illusion of being me - my continuing story about myself!! But really it's just a load of twisted memories and remembered reactions called emotion that continually get resurrected. So when you say " what wants to follow thought content " - it can only be more thought. Thought likes to follow thought content and generate more thought.

What I said before must be true - that each thought generates a new version of "I" , an "I" that now attaches to whatever new idea or experience is flavour of the moment.

What else do you need to know?

So ....

I am not thought. Emotions are just more thoughts. Thoughts come and go and cannot be controlled. Thoughts reference the past and guess the future. Thoughts have nothing to say about the present.

I need to work on this next bit ......

"I" is just another thought, a long standing habit but not an original thought. There is nothing in control. There is nothing making any desision. Life is just a moving river of .... Er well life I suppose!

I think that's a fair summary of where I think my understanding is at the moment ..

Is this just the first layer of the onion, or am I ready to go into the stew !! :-)

If you think I need a bit of a slap, just tell me :-)

Take care,

Rich

Hi Rich

Is it just habit to follow thought content? Can it really be that the world is just there being the world, and thought just arises from nowhere?

How do you know the world is there outside of thought? What else do you actually ‘know’ except perception? And what is experienced with thought? What you wrote above – is that what is experienced? So what else is there – except thought doing what thought does! LOL.

Attachment to thought is through habit and learning. Thought itself seems to be so tailored to my past experience with everything I've ever done, and everyone I've ever met that it gives the illusion of being me - my continuing story about myself!! But really it's just a load of twisted memories and remembered reactions called emotion that continually get resurrected. So when you say " what wants to follow thought content " - it can only be more thought. Thought likes to follow thought content and generate more thought. What I said before must be true - that each thought generates a new version of "I" , an "I" that now attaches to whatever new idea or experience is flavour of the moment.

Fabulous noticing! Now look for this happening and when seeing happens – SMILE! :) What happens then to the experience when the noticing of thought habits happens?

I am not thought.

That doesn’t match what you say above?

I think that's a fair summary of where I think my understanding is at the moment

Understanding? Or experience? Do you see the above? We are not about replacing old beliefs with new ones. We are about what is actually experienced!

Is this just the first layer of the onion, or am I ready to go into the stew !! :-)

You are the pot that holds the stew Rich! Only thought said you had left it!
So lets look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing. Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Where do you end and seeing starts and seeing ends and object starts? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?

If you think I need a bit of a slap, just tell me :-)

Oh my!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Just a quick reply to let you know I'm still still here. Sorry for not getting back to you a bit sooner. I'm afraid hectic life has got in the way again and I haven't been able to have a good look at what you've asked me to do. But I did have a bit of time today and have started investigating what happens with seeing as you suggested. So I'll get a bit further on with this before I let you know what I've found.

Understanding? Or experience? Do you see the above? We are not about replacing old beliefs with new ones. We are about what is actually experienced!

Yes of course you right. I'll try to bear this in mind in future. I don't want to just get a new set of things to believe in either, I would like to know the truth. Perhaps I worded my little summary badly in retrospect.

Anyway, will be in touch again soon.

Take care

Rich

Fine Rich
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Sorry for being quiet for a while, it's been manic at work and at home recently ..

Anyway, I've managed to have a look at seeing as you asked in you last post ..

Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later?

No definitely not. There is no perception of an object using another sense except that which memory provides. For example, if I have closed eyes and I hear a car I think "that's a car", but I cant see it, its just thought giving its best guess. If I see an object, then close my eyes and ask question about it, I find that there are details about the object that I can't know without looking again. So it's not possible to know some details without looking using sight.[/quote]

Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable?

There is no dividing line between the seeing and the object. Again, if I close my eyes, then open them again, I see things immediately. The only gap is when though sorts out which label it is going to use for that object.

Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Where do you end and seeing starts and seeing ends and object starts? Or is there only seeing?

I would have said a few weeks ago, that there is the object, the eyes record the information, then my brain interprets it, then I recognise it as whatever. But now I say that when I look at an object, seeing is immediate, there is only a pause when my mind wants to label or contextualize it.

What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

No. The thought "I am seeing this object", is a kind of filter - a glossy presentation of what actually is happening which is just object and seeing. The direct experience is just seeing !

Thanks Sarah, sorry I've not got much time tonight ..

Take care

Rich

Hi Rich

If I see an object, then close my eyes and ask question about it, I find that there are details about the object that I can't know without looking again. So it's not possible to know some details without looking using sight.

What detail does looking provide? Does looking provide weight, length, texture etc or are those thoughts?

There is no dividing line between the seeing and the object. Again, if I close my eyes, then open them again, I see things immediately. The only gap is when though sorts out which label it is going to use for that object.

And what about if distance was introduced? Try the same exercise by looking out of the window.

I would have said a few weeks ago, that there is the object, the eyes record the information, then my brain interprets it, then I recognise it as whatever. But now I say that when I look at an object, seeing is immediate, there is only a pause when my mind wants to label or contextualize it.

So no separation then?

OK so now lets try hearing.

Sit comfortably near an open window and listen. Listen to all the sounds. How do you know they are there? What is your direct experience of ‘sound’? List your direct experience. Is it sensation again? Is it thought again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and label, try and explain, add story. Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in. See if you can catch the thought "those are birds’, or the habitual thought "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with this. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening?

Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I", hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? Look at the thought, "I'm hearing that sound". Does it describe your direct experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

I've been looking again at some of the stuff you've given me to check out.

What detail does looking provide? Does looking provide weight, length, texture etc or are those thoughts?

That's a good point, I see what you're getting at. Weight, length, etc are aspects of an object that thought is inquisitive about. This information is not provided from looking, and again thought wants more than there is.

And what about if distance was introduced? Try the same exercise by looking out of the window.

If I look out of the window at a distant object, the same process happens. I notice that there is seeing happening before thought starts to label things. But it's very quick, the is not much gap between seeing without labeling, and thought getting in on the act.

So no separation then?

Initially no, and then when labeling starts, yes.

I'm now starting to have a look at hearing. One thing I've noticed straight away is that there is a much more noticeable tendency for thought to start stories about sounds and what they are, where they come from, what's causing them etc. Its quite hard to separate the hearing from the stories, harder than with sight. Must be because sight seems to provide thought with most of its information straight away, whereas with hearing there are a lot more information gaps for thought to fill in so it's more active.
I'm only just starting to look at hearing so I'll post more on this next time.

I know this has really nothing to do with what you're trying to help me with here, but I just wanted to say thanks for guiding me so far. Things are a bit tough at work at the moment, and some of the things you've helped me to noticed, especially about thought telling its stories have really helped me. When I find myself worrying about the outcome, I recognise that it's just thought going off on one again!

Take care

Rich

I will be away until Sunday so may not be able to post again until then.