The Gate

'morning Robert.

This time I noted the difference between what was being seen and what had always been a mental image of the hand.

Yes, so now it becomes pretty easy to see how we have been relating to images of others and the world rather than the actual. Of course it would be a lot of (unnecessary) work to relate to everybody and everything like this, but at least now you know that it is happening and when the occasion calls for it, you can put aside the image and check the reality. The image thing is a brilliant piece of work by the brain to reduce the effort in navigating daily life. The brain has even trained the eyes to only pass on to it, information that it deems relevant.

While noticing the noticing, the hand was still in view but awareness of it was limited to just the sight of it and in retrospect there didn't seem to be an experiencing of self.

Yes, that's it. You can repeat the exercise and it will get easier and the gap between thoughts will get longer and the experiencing of just SEEing will get stronger, but there's really no need to do it for our purposes (There is value though if you are inclined - it's a form of meditation) That experience will allow the concept to be developed which will serve our purposes of knowing that there is no separate see-er from the seen. That there is only seeing. That can be extrapolated to no separate experiencer from the experienced. (only experiencing)
Can you grok this ?

- true. Haven't found a noticer. But is there a noticed?

You tell me.
Where is noticing happening ? If you (try to) confirm the existence of an object out there by touching it, where is the experiencing of touch happening ?
There is only sensations happening - right ?
Now you get an idea of what quantum physics (and Buddhism) means when it says that it is consciousness that creates the world.

the body is an action.

Yes yes yes. Brilliant !
Now go one step further. Everything is action.
If you look through a powerful microscope what you find is a lot of space and movement of electrons. Look even further and you see quarks coming into and going out of existence. Bloody amazing !

Much of what I called my body is really an experience of a concept; a thought about body that is not currently being directly experienced through the senses.

Yes, and that's ok, as long as you can see this, you are not identified with the story of Robert. What we had taken to be reality is a very useful tool. It's just NOT us.

Robert, let's summarize.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

Hi Vince,
Just a quick check in. I'm working on the questions and I'll post as soon as it's done.

Thanks

Hi Vince,
Another quick not while I'm working on the 6 questions. This just happened a little while ago while considering "no separate experiencer from the experienced. (only experiencing)":

There is seeing right here; everything appearing right here in this sight. All the sounds too. Everything happening right now here. All the sights and sounds are familiar but they aren't "out there"; it's all "in here" inside this little space in my head but this space seems as big as the room I see. Even a little bigger as it seems to include the space where I imagine hearing the voices and sounds outside this room.

This is the second time today that this perspective shift has happened.

Thanks

This is the second time today that this perspective shift has happened.

Experiences don't mean anything in, and of, themselves. They are the result of conditions. They may be showing you something (or not). Have you taken any meaning from them ?

vince

Good Morning Vince,

Experiences don't mean anything in, and of, themselves. They are the result of conditions. They may be showing you something (or not). Have you taken any meaning from them ?

- there have been plenty of experiences over the years that I had imagined were meaningful in some way or other. The meaning the experiences have are whatever meaning you give them; which is to say they have no inhearant meaning.
The experience yesterday was not really dramatic, but it was different. It seemed like a visual shift in perspective I did wonder if it sounded at all familiar to you.

Thanks

Hi Vince,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

- There is no separate self and there never has been.  Current science says that self is a construct that emerges from the activity of many areas in the brain.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

- The illusion is experienced here as a feeling/sense that I, Robert, exist inside this body with the focus of awareness in the head behind the eyes. There is me in my body separate from everything and everyone else. It arises when there are thoughts about me, or related to me, and when experiencing memories or future concerns about me. The sense of self also arises during physical and emotional stress; when hungry, tired, fatigued, injured, embarrassed, "self"-conscious, or afraid.
The illusion is often not present when rested or preoccupied with some non-self related thought stream or activity.
The separate self may also be absent when "looking" to find it.
So, when the sense of self is noticed it may be temporarily released by simply looking for it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

- there has been a mix of feelings during the last few days. Some anxiety about receiving and answering these 6 questions; there's been some resistance to answering them.
The illusion of a separate self has definitely been busted, although residual irrational doubt remains, along with the sense of self that I'm told will probably continue indefinitely.
There seems to be more confidence some of the time, along with less confidence at other times. When old ways of behaving and old ideas come into question I'm sometimes unsure what to do and I may second guess myself or try to make sense of the situation. What helps sometimes is remembering there is no me solving problems or making decisions the way I used to think I had to.
And remembering there is no self to be be self-conscious or self-confidant helps reduce anxiety, compulsive thinking and ruminating. Seeing that "my past" does not exist except as a  memory, which is a mostly mistaken story, helps lighten the weight of guilt, shame, remorse and resentment; what a relief!
Seeing the future as a non existent projection largely based on the unreal past (just described in the last paragraph) helps reduce fear and anxiety.
At times lately there has been a bit more aggravation at some people close to me and at certain political groups and individuals and world affairs. Not sure what that's about.
There's plenty of discovery going on and plenty of enjoyment about that.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

- the BBC documentary "The Secret You" made the biggest impression, along with several other videos and articles about the science of "self". The other major factor in seeing was the repeated looking for what and where "me" was. There wasn't a strong belief that self was some kind of spirit, and it became clear that if self was the emergent property of brain activity, then it was not a substantive thing. Therefore, it could not have the power to act or directly cause action. It was essentially a thought. The person I took myself to be is not there, not real, an illusion. There isn't even an "I" to make that mistake.
Imagine a brain with plenty of areas lighting up from electrochemical activity. Then imaging those areas working together to project an image or a sense of self. Then imagine that process of the brain projecting the whole universe, the world, everything and everyone in it. And imagine not having a clue that any of this is happening…until you stumble across someplace like Liberation Unleashed and LOOK.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

- a couple of weeks ago I posted on this topic. My understanding on this hasn't changed much since then and I don't think I could say it much better than before. So here is the updated post with examples from experience:

There's no free will and no conscious  decision making. So I don't/can't make decisions consciously. It's done by the brain outside of awareness. So why struggle to make decisions and solve problems? Maybe I should just give up the effort.  But there is no "I", no "self", consciously effort-ing and no one to give it up by choice.
Also there's no freewill existing to make such a choice. It's made by the brain based on personal history, past conditioning and current circumstances. The accumulation of conditioning is ongoing right up to the current moment.
Given the exact same circumstances, an organisms choices/actions/responses will always be the same. But as time moves along, new circumstances add to the accumulation of conditioning such that the organism of this moment will be a slightly different organism than it was a moment before, making it possible for that organism to follow different choices made non-consciously by the brain.  
There is no separate self, no one to make decisions or to be responsible for actions. You act based on genetic predisposition and personal history in response to current circumstances. There is no self, no you, to influence or control choices or actions. There is no freewill.
The individual acts according to those factors  and then the brain creates a story/belief that you, the self, chose your decisions and actions. "You" are convinced that "You" did it.
Funny thing is that not only is the brain unconsciously deciding and controlling action but it is making up a non-existent "self/you"…and making up the story that you are in control.
It's not that the self is somehow lying about its abilities and actions. It's not bad. Rather it is completely fabricated by the brain. Seems the brain probably has some functional reasons for creating this elaborate ruse. It must serve some purpose, have some survival advantage. Everyone does it.

So then, when it comes to "to do or not to do", there really is no conscious choice to worry about. Nor is there even a choice whether or not to worry. You will do or not do as you are conditioned to do. There is no choice, no you to choose; y"You"cannot help it.

When it comes to "Liberation" there is no you/me to be liberated. Also no conscious choice can be made to seek liberation or how to act or even whether to act to seek liberation. It will flow or it won't.

An example from experience is as follows:
About 7 months ago I was following links from a string of websites when I came across Ruthless Truth and Liberation Unleashed. I devoured everything I could read including stuff from many other sources, but I put off getting a guide until several weeks ago. I thought I could liberate myself by self will and brute force through learning and practice. But doubts grew and there were lots of questions forming in my mind; and besides that I wanted to be able to join the Facebook groups of people who had seen through the illusion so I could find out what they were learning. I hesitated to post anything while I told myself I needed to find just the right guide. Finally, I took the first step, I got a guide and got busy.
Notice the story just told here contains a lot of I's and my's. Some of that is for convenience to tell the story. Some of it is because there was the belief that an I existed, owned and controlled a body, had desires, made decisions and directly controlled the actions that got me deliberately from beginning (surfing websites) to end (seeing through the illusion). And it was believed I did it all by choice through exertion of my free will. I was responsible for the fruits of my actions.
The truth is that there is no me to choose, desire, exert directed effort, exercise free will, liberate myself or be responsible. The whole story, from beginning to end was the result of prior conditions and current circumstances. "I" could not make liberation happen or prevent it from coming about.

Another example is about watching TV.  I rarely watch tv but my wife watches quite a lot. I tend to feel superior to her about this issue because in my opinion most tv programming and especially commercials are at best a waste of time, at worst socially destructive and often generally offensive.
The story was that, after considered all of these factors, I made the decision not to watch tv. It would be more correct to say that the attitudes about tv formed passively over time, based on my temperament and information about tv programming that I had absorbed from other sources. There was no conscious decision to stop watching tv. Other things became more interesting to me and gradually the habit of doing those other things formed and replaced the tv habit. There was no conscious control over this change, free will was not involved; it came about because of temperament, prior conditioning and current circumstances. There is no "I" to be responsible for making a "better" choice; in fact it could not have been otherwise.  

6) Anything to add?

- there were a lot of expectations I had when starting this investigation. The guide told me that expectations would likely interfere with work of seeing through the illusion of self. So I tried to let them go. It turns out that "I" could not directly let them go because the "I" is just a story and therefore has no power to make that decision or carry out that action. "I" has no control whatsoever. Change is initiated by, and happens at the level of, the unconscious brain. Bringing those expectations to awareness helped initiate the releasing process, but letting go happens, when it does, on it's own time. In fact it is clear that there are still expectations related to liberation that haven't been released. The biggest clue that expectations remain is the sense of disappointment and the feeling that I haven't gotten "it".
But the truth is that the goal of this investigation was to see through the illusion of the separate self. Happily, that illusion has been busted.
So now there are plenty of new expectations that it will be exciting, fun and fruitful as "I" progress beyond the gateless gate.  Isn't it funny the way this brain works?


Thank You

Thanks Robert, i need to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
You may get some questions from other guides seeking clarification on certain points.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in those groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

love

vince

Hi Robert. The first question that arose was about the brain doing things. "so now its the brain that creates the illusion, that decides and controls" ?
It certainly makes more sense than the idea of a mythical 'Self' pulling the levers, doesn't it. But can you find the brain by directly experiencing it ?
How much has the ground shifted in neuroscience over that past couple of years ? How much will it shift in the next couple ?
Can you see that this is just another story ? That it's just second hand information that can't be verified by the Robert organism ?
i have a story that is both useful and very entertaining. i call it my "Great Mystery" story.
It goes like this; "i don't know anything. i can't know anything. At best, i can only pretend that i do. Behave as if i do. All the while not even knowing if this is a dream within a dream or something else.
i can actually only respond to what stimulates the five senses and the content of thoughts that arise.
Even that response is an interpretation of what these stimulations mean or what their consequences might be.
Knowing nothing, makes everything a discovery and these discoveries emerge from the grab bag i call the Great Mystery. In fact everything not being currently experienced, either emerges from or vanishes into that mysterious 'place'. i don't believe it, yet it appears to be true. Bloody Wonder Full !

love

vince

Good Morning Vince,

The first question that arose was about the brain doing things. "so now its the brain that creates the illusion, that decides and controls" ?
It certainly makes more sense than the idea of a mythical 'Self' pulling the levers, doesn't it. But can you find the brain by directly experiencing it ?

- there is quite a bit of "knowledge" that I've gathered; information that that was assumed to be correct, much of which was accepted because it sounded correct and didn't conflict with other "facts" gathered that also fit into the evolving story.
But in direct experience I can't even say that I have a brain. How the brain operates, what it does, is all a secondhand story. It's seems to be the most compelling story so far.
Another story I've heard recently is that it's life running the show; that it's all just Life life-ing.
Looking at it now it seems the only thing that can be said from direct experience about this is that experience is experiencing.
I still kinda like the brain story though.

How much has the ground shifted in neuroscience over that past couple of years ?

- quite a lot

How much will it shift in the next couple ?

- quite a lot more, I imagine.

Can you see that this is just another story ? That it's just second hand information that can't be verified by the Robert organism ?

- this is now seen. Also noticed is that the brain is not a self. It's not like a little person or a soul.
The story here now is that the brain is an organ of the body just like the heart, liver, or kidneys. Each of these organs has a functional role through which Life seems to operate.
The brain is not a being, not a person. But I think it functions in a way that makes it appear that there is a self. But it cannot be said that the brain chooses to make that illusion happen. It does what it does because that is what it has evolved to do; the result of changing conditions throughout time.
That's the story as I misunderstand it right now.

i have a story that is both useful and very entertaining. i call it my "Great Mystery" story.
It goes like this; "i don't know anything. i can't know anything. At best, i can only pretend that i do. Behave as if i do. All the while not even knowing if this is a dream within a dream or something else.
i can actually only respond to what stimulates the five senses and the content of thoughts that arise.
Even that response is an interpretation of what these stimulations mean or what their consequences might be.
Knowing nothing, makes everything a discovery and these discoveries emerge from the grab bag i call the Great Mystery. In fact everything not being currently experienced, either emerges from or vanishes into that mysterious 'place'. i don't believe it, yet it appears to be true. Bloody Wonder Full !

- I like that story

Hi Vince,

Haven't posted in a couple days, so I wanted to do that and see what's happening. I friended you on Facebook when we started the conversation several weeks ago. Just finished reading Eric Gross' book, Liberation From The Lie, and while visiting his FB page I noticed your name on the friend pop up.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Hi Robert. A question from another guide;
You say "Looking at it now it seems the only thing that can be said from direct experience about this is that experience is experiencing."

My questions would be:
What is this experience that is experiencing?
Is there an 'experiencer' in direct experience?

I friended you on Facebook when we started the conversation several weeks ago.

Hmm, what is your FB name ?

Just finished reading Eric Gross' book, Liberation From The Lie,

Ah, Eric. He was the trigger for Vince awakening.

love

vince

Morning Vince,

A question from another guide;
You say "Looking at it now it seems the only thing that can be said from direct experience about this is that experience is experiencing."

My questions would be:
What is this experience that is experiencing?
Is there an 'experiencer' in direct experience?

- that response was an attempt to describe what was thought to be direct experience. But it looks more like a mix of experience and intellectual (mis)understanding.  The term "experience" was used to mean "Life"… as in Life experiencing.
Is life an aware, consciously directed or directing entity? Does life experience?- does it experience through the living or non living  world? Is life an experiencer? Or is life just experiencing?

Anyway, there is no me called "experience".   That would just be another separate self.  There is no me that is an experiencer. It may be more correct to just say there is experiencing.

Thanks

..another question Robert.

The term "experience" was used to mean "Life"… as in Life experiencing.

Could you please clarify what you means by "life", as in "life experiencing"?

Hi Vince,

..another question Robert.
Imyself wrote:
The term "experience" was used to mean "Life"… as in Life experiencing.
Could you please clarify what you means by "life", as in "life experiencing"?

- When I wrote "life experiencing" I was seeing it at once as a process and then also as an abstract idea of a thing.
Life is not an actual thing; there is no object called life that you can observe or touch. I've seen the term life-ing used to express an ongoing process.
So as it seems here at this moment, "life experiencing" means the awareness of that ongoing process.


Thanks

Robert, is there an awareness that is aware of the ongoing process?

v