Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Really enjoying paying more attention through the senses so able to experience the present. This is not all the time by any means, but comes and goes and is delightful when noticing. This even seems possible being with other people as that was a struggle before.

Good on you!
Have you also observed the mental activity? It too is fascinating to 'watch', all these thoughts, story making, etc.
Albeit at times 'useful' to navigate this 'world of ours' -daily work routine, IRS, politics, etc.- how much connection do all the thoughts have with what is observable in the here and now?

Honestly it appears no thoughts are in the present . . . this needs more looking at, but may be true!

Please do look.

There is no “I.” It is only a thought, story, and/or concept and limiting because “I” is a story not in the present.

Well, this is quite a statement. No disagreement here with this, just sheer joy!
What is needed now is to look at this realisation [that there is no “I” or “self”] from different angles so we can weed out misconceptions, odd views, that sort of thing.
So first, you may remember the following sentence:
“I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” is a fairy tale. “I” does not exist, and never had any inherent existence ever.
What are now the responses to this sentence that can be observed in direct experience?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Dridhamati wrote: Have you also observed the mental activity? It too is fascinating to 'watch', all these thoughts, story making, etc.

Oh yes, observing all the thoughts and stories. Today was full of them! There was some discomfort today holding a space for something “I” didn’t like that was happening, but knew on another level that it was okay because it just was and “I” do not need to control. Yet the stories kept weaving in and out of my day, at times engaging my energy - anxiety and/or emotions – making new stories! Even with that going on I chose to watch with patience and be in that discomfort, if it was really discomfort or just a feeling.

Dridhamati wrote: Albeit at times 'useful' to navigate this 'world of ours' -daily work routine, IRS, politics, etc.- how much connection do all the thoughts have with what is observable in the here and now?

I really think that the thoughts have nothing to do with here and now. They seem to be all over the place, but not in the present.

Dridhamati wrote: What is needed now is to look at this realisation [that there is no “I” or “self”] from different angles so we can weed out misconceptions, odd views, that sort of thing.
So first, you may remember the following sentence:
“I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” is a fairy tale. “I” does not exist, and never had any inherent existence ever.
What are now the responses to this sentence that can be observed in direct experience?

I cannot find the “I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” in direct experience. Right now I experience sensations from what I label as a struggle today as the “I” wants to create a story so “I” can be upset at someone. There is no purpose to that as it only creates separation and disharmony. The sensations I feel are jittery, tense and edgy, but they are just that – doesn’t need a label of good or bad, comfort or discomfort, it just is.

There needs to be no “I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” that can get engaged, create a story and separation . . . it never really existed because we are not separate, we are interconnected. If in touch with that there is the realization that how we perceive either embraces (accepts) by being in the present with what is or pushes away with stories.

It is a late night and noticing still the edginess and the “I feeling” of unsettledness. The thoughts want to come and create a story of unfairness and anger, yet that is not what I really want. I want acceptance of what is and allowing what will be . . . allowing life to flow.

Not sure I am making sense, but will let this go for now and head to bed.

Good night and with gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Oh yes, observing all the thoughts and stories. Today was full of them! There was some discomfort today holding a space for something “I” didn’t like that was happening, but knew on another level that it was okay because it just was and “I” do not need to control. Yet the stories kept weaving in and out of my day, at times engaging my energy - anxiety and/or emotions – making new stories! Even with that going on I chose to watch with patience and be in that discomfort, if it was really discomfort or just a feeling.

Great observing here. Just one point.
You say ’...and “I” do not need to control.' If there is no “I” that can be found (as you state below), how can “I” be in control, or need to control? (Try the arm raising exercise again, bottom of page 2 of our conversation.)

I really think that the thoughts have nothing to do with here and now. They seem to be all over the place, but not in the present.

Just to make sure: is this 'I really think' conclusion the product of logical reasoning, or observation?

I cannot find the “I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” in direct experience. Right now I experience sensations from what I label as a struggle today as the “I” wants to create a story so “I” can be upset at someone. There is no purpose to that as it only creates separation and disharmony. The sensations I feel are jittery, tense and edgy, but they are just that – doesn’t need a label of good or bad, comfort or discomfort, it just is.

Excellent observations.

There needs to be no “I”, “me”, “mine”, “myself” that can get engaged, create a story and separation . . . it never really existed because we are not separate, we are interconnected. If in touch with that there is the realization that how we perceive either embraces (accepts) by being in the present with what is or pushes away with stories.

Again, excellent observations.

It is a late night and noticing still the edginess and the “I feeling” of unsettledness. The thoughts want to come and create a story of unfairness and anger, yet that is not what I really want. I want acceptance of what is and allowing what will be . . . allowing life to flow.

A question here: if there is no “I” that can be found, then 'who' or 'what' does not want the 'story of unfairness and anger', and wants the 'acceptance of what is...'?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,
Thank you for your response. Been out all day and just crawling into bed. Will need to respond later tomorrow.
With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Not sure what happened. Felt a perspective shifting last week, a realization that there is no “I, me, myself” - shared in previous posts, then in my last post there was acknowledgement of the many thoughts and stories observed, “Today was full of them!” . . . and then it felt like a black sheet with very small holes of insight blocked my senses and the present. There was a struggle of trying to stay with the ‘observation’ of thoughts and stories and getting ‘immersed’ in them. The emotion of hurt, anger and sadness dominated. Felt off centered and lost in a way . . . lost in ‘self’ which only caused extreme confusion since the realization that there is no self! Still stumbling.

Once again the emotional engagement happened and created isolation/separation (?). Working with a story of “command and control” . . . which leads into your following question.

Dridhamati Wrote: You say ’...and “I” do not need to control.' If there is no “I” that can be found (as you state below), how can “I” be in control, or need to control? (Try the arm raising exercise again, bottom of page 2 of our conversation.)

There is an observation that there is no “I” that can be found (“I” cannot raise the arm!), yet maybe in my mind there is a new creation of a story of the “I” with quotes. “This “I” who wants control or need control.” Again, not sure what happened, but something is here for me to just experience and observe and not begin more stories or mind chatter about.

Jai Ananda wrote: I really think that the thoughts have nothing to do with here and now. They seem to be all over the place, but not in the present.
Dridhamati Wrote: Just to make sure: is this 'I really think' conclusion the product of logical reasoning, or observation?

Hmmm . . . from the recent experience maybe at this time the conclusion is more 'logical reasoning' since there was a loss of observation and more of an immersion into thoughts.

Jai Ananda wrote: It is a late night and noticing still the edginess and the “I feeling” of unsettledness. The thoughts want to come and create a story of unfairness and anger, yet that is not what I really want. I want acceptance of what is and allowing what will be . . . allowing life to flow.
Dridhamati Wrote: A question here: if there is no “I” that can be found, then 'who' or 'what' does not want the 'story of unfairness and anger', and wants the 'acceptance of what is...'?

That is the definitely the question now! Especially since the thoughts which lead into stories became real . . . back to practicing observing the senses. Feels like a few steps backward.

With gratitude for your patience and understanding, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Not sure what happened. Felt a perspective shifting last week, a realization that there is no “I, me, myself” - shared in previous posts, then in my last post there was acknowledgement of the many thoughts and stories observed, “Today was full of them!” . . . and then it felt like a black sheet with very small holes of insight blocked my senses and the present. There was a struggle of trying to stay with the ‘observation’ of thoughts and stories and getting ‘immersed’ in them. The emotion of hurt, anger and sadness dominated. Felt off centered and lost in a way . . . lost in ‘self’ which only caused extreme confusion since the realization that there is no self! Still stumbling.

Many stories come to mind as to what could have happened.
The likelihood: doubt, fear. Manifesting in whatever way.
Still, what is worth noting here is that even states like what you describe above can be observed. So there was less 'contact with experience', more '“self” arising thoughts' (process informally called 'selfing'). It was still observed to some extent, and reported on.

The realisation that a whole life was spent believing that “I” was the center of the “me” universe is bound to cause some ripple effects.
The organism referred to as Jai Ananda has had a life-long building up habits, conditioning, etc. These habits and conditioning have not been wiped clean, they are still there, and depending how deeply set they are, they'll take more or less time to 'work themselves out.'

The key now is to be patient and gentle, and also persistent and merciless. Remember: everything is game for observation. A unfolding flower in the morning sun, an unbelievable stories about a hypothetical future: both equally moments of intimate contact with what is.

There is an observation that there is no “I” that can be found (“I” cannot raise the arm!), yet maybe in my mind there is a new creation of a story of the “I” with quotes. “This “I” who wants control or need control.”

As mentioned above: maybe a hypothetical story is created. Simply observe it as such.

Hmmm . . . from the recent experience maybe at this time the conclusion is more 'logical reasoning' since there was a loss of observation and more of an immersion into thoughts.

That's OK. Come back to it whenever, and report then.

That is the definitely the question now! Especially since the thoughts which lead into stories became real . . . back to practicing observing the senses. Feels like a few steps backward.

Steps backward? A pause maybe. And a deserved one. This is a major step. There's no rush. This dialogue carries on.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Thank you for your understanding, kind words of encouragement and guidance. Observing how slow the pace of stepping back into the dance is.

The realisation that a whole life was spent believing that “I” was the center of the “me” universe is bound to cause some ripple effects.
The organism referred to as Jai Ananda has had a life-long building up habits, conditioning, etc. These habits and conditioning have not been wiped clean, they are still there, and depending how deeply set they are, they'll take more or less time to 'work themselves out.'

Appreciating this explanation and adapting to having more understanding, patience and kindness. Observing feeling disappointed with the lack of ability to have stayed with observation instead of being immersed in feelings, thoughts, and stories. It felt jarring to the system to fall into past stories and anger. Seeing judgments and labeling here, but feels important to share.

Finding giving some space, reviewing our past posts and listening to some LU audio, etc. is helping to bring the learning back up to the forefront. It definitely feels like a time to breathe, observe and to be patient reconnecting with direct experience, but also with persistence and mercilessness.

To top it off right now - there is a 40th HS reunion this coming weekend which is bringing many past stories and relationships up front. A whole culture of conditioning to observe! Any suggestions or tools for stepping into something like this? This will take some traveling and being on the road so will make it hard to stay in contact Saturday and Sunday and maybe Monday.

Right now feels like a time to keep it steady, observe and be gentle.

One last thing – can you expand on “selfing” a little more?

With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

These habits and conditioning have not been wiped clean, they are still there, and depending how deeply set they are, they'll take more or less time to 'work themselves out.'

Here are some observations about 'selfing'. As a general rule, 'selfing' refers to the playing out of these habits and conditioning.

First it is useful to define the terms. The habits and conditioning that are referred to here are learnt behaviours acquired along the years. They are not about basic essential needs, such as breathing, eating, etc. necessary for the organism to sustain its existence.
Now using a metaphor, habits/conditioning and the illusion of “self” are a bit like the two sides of the same coin.

The process: a stimulus is sensed, it is 're-cognised' by the mind, a response is formulated from memory (a habit), and the response is enacted -one side of the coin. An illusion has simultaneously formed, called “self” -the other side of the coin.
At this point words can lead to misunderstandings so it is worth repeating: habits/conditioning do not emerge out of the illusory self, any more than the illusory self emerges out of habits/conditioning. They seem to emerge simultaneously.

However, since it is realised that there is no such 'thing' as “self”, the above process is seen for what it is: a conditioned response, the pretence of a “self”, and it is let go of naturally.


As for this weekend, if you feel overwhelmed by the incessant 'assault' on the senses from the reunion, simply 'take five'. Retire to a spot where interaction is at a minimum, and reconnect with simple observation. And when ready you can 'jump back in'.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Thank you for clarification and for some insights. I also appreciate the tip of taking time out for observation at the event this coming weekend.

Observing that there is a wanting for the ‘aha’ moment again that was shared a few postings ago as ‘delightful.’ Smiling that there is an expectation. What is here now is what is and it is full of ‘aha’ moments when there is a letting go.

Slowly coming back. Trying to be patient and not discouraged. Observing how negativity arises and causes an inner shutdown (in other words – a busy and judgmental mind). Quite amazing to observe these past habits, conditioned responses . . . appreciating seeing it for that. There seems to be so many stories piled on one another so that when one is recognized another quickly follows.

Will respond more soon. Thank you for being patient.

With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Thank you for clarification and for some insights. I also appreciate the tip of taking time out for observation at the event this coming weekend.

As ever, everything that I write (say) is a mere pointer: at best it is to be read and held very lightly.
The standard against which (anyone's) views can be tested is experience: what is experienced when this or that arises? What is observed?

Observing that there is a wanting for the ‘aha’ moment again that was shared a few postings ago as ‘delightful.’ Smiling that there is an expectation. What is here now is what is and it is full of ‘aha’ moments when there is a letting go.

That is so beautifully put Jai Ananda.
The extraordinary found in the ordinary.

While observing all these thoughts coming up, can an agent or a controller be located? Can something or someone be found that is 'in charge' of what thought comes up next?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Writing in the morning from work. Needing to be straight forward right now and let you know that I am really struggling.

Had a hard night sleeping after a physician visit yesterday (there is an ongoing health issue that I am working with). Listened to LU, kept coming back to sensations, but it seems the thoughts, stories and anxiety is very strong. It is not just the health issue, it feels like a tense edge in my life . . . especially as I observe and cannot step out from being engaged.

Trying to work with practice of observation, looking for the “I” behind this and can see, but then quickly there is a falling into a spin. A building up and feeling almost like my body wants to explode.

Last night when I wrote the post I was able to observe clearer and then here I am again spinning. The messages of disappointed and confusion are strong.

Today, this moment is new and this is where I will practice direct experience again. Observing the many thoughts and stories of anxiety, neediness, fear, wanting acceptance and control that are passing through. There is not an “I, me or myself” behind this now. It helps to write this and acknowledge what is happening. Experiencing relief in this moment and the next with some tears. There is no need to control, just an allowing.

Thanks for being there to hear the struggle. Will write again later.
With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[Jai Ananda]

Hi again,

A quick follow up after reading the last post.

There is no need to control, just an allowing.

Clarification, There is no need to control, just observing (witnessing?) these past habits and conditioning.

with gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Writing in the morning from work. Needing to be straight forward right now and let you know that I am really struggling.

Thank you for your honesty.
There is no urgency, and we can proceed at the pace that is most appropriate.

Today, this moment is new and this is where I will practice direct experience again. Observing the many thoughts and stories of anxiety, neediness, fear, wanting acceptance and control that are passing through. There is not an “I, me or myself” behind this now. It helps to write this and acknowledge what is happening. Experiencing relief in this moment and the next with some tears.

That's great.
Simply bask in the unadorned beauty of experience. Clearly seeing that there is just what is.

Clarification, There is no need to control, just observing (witnessing?) these past habits and conditioning.

Yes, 'there is no need to control' and, observing more closely...
…'need' or not, can control be exercised anyway? By what, by whom?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Back to the basics of direct experience (DE)/observation: observing life – senses/feeling report a neutral fact - then a thought/emotion can come in and take off into stories. My goal now is to observe, DE/staying in touch with senses, observing when thoughts/emotions/concepts passing through, DE/staying (or coming back to) the five senses as an effort to break conditioning and habitual response.

Practiced this today with more luck. Keeping it basic with no expectation.

Dridhamati wrote: Yes, 'there is no need to control' and, observing more closely...
…'need' or not, can control be exercised anyway? By what, by whom?

Ah, hitting the nail right smack on the head! No, control cannot be exercised in any way. There are attempts and a “story” for me with almost a panic when not feeling the ‘sense of control.’ Not sure because of ADHD (and isn’t that just a label!) with the scatteredness and emotional sensitivity and/or the health challenge with no control. Observing how this feeling/need (?) of a ‘sense of control’ jumps to the forefront and creates an emotional upheaval. Feeling that the more it is named the easier it will be to observe instead of immersed in it. Maybe this is not the right approach?

Anyway, observing some patterns of habitual and conditional responses and coming back to DE seems to diffuse them.

with gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Practiced this today with more luck. Keeping it basic with no expectation.

Great.

Ah, hitting the nail right smack on the head! No, control cannot be exercised in any way. There are attempts and a “story” for me with almost a panic when not feeling the ‘sense of control.’

Nailing the lid of the “self's” coffin, except nothing lies in the coffin...
'There are attempts' you say, if there's no “self” or “I”, who or what is attempting?

Feeling that the more it is named the easier it will be to observe instead of immersed in it. Maybe this is not the right approach?

Could you expand a bit more on this please?

Anyway, observing some patterns of habitual and conditional responses and coming back to DE seems to diffuse them.

That's the experience here too.
They [the patterns of habitual and conditional responses] are observed in DE and ... what's actually there?

All the best
Dridhamati