New contact introduction

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Thanks for the warning about your visit to your parents. Just post when you can.
I must also let you know that on Friday I go to Italy for a week with my wife and kids. We will be on a campsite but from past experience I have found the wifi can be quite poor. Nevertheless I will try to keep in touch, probably by composing messages offline and then finding somewhere with acceptable reception to send them.

I don't know if you are local to the South of England but on 26th July, Ilona, co-founder of LU is holding a meeting in Worthing, Sussex, where people can come and meet her and others who turn up on the day. I'll be going myself. I mention it because last time it was lovely and Ilona did some direct pointing and the discussion was also interesting. If you might be interested let me know and I will let you know details.

Am I 'getting anywhere' with this? Starting to feel I can't do this.

These doubts can occur even after people have gone through the gateless gate. Quite often something dramatic or fireworksy or 'spiritual' is looked for and when that doesn't seem to happen it can be believed that 'nothing has happened', or disappointment ensues. (Not seeing it near they seek it afar, what a pity'?).

It was you who used the word 'subtle' a few days ago.

How should things feel, or be different, for one who has 'seen'?


If you feel 'I can't do this', look at that thought directly to see if there is a real self that really 'can't do' something.

Can you find one there at all?




Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
Thank you for the encouragement and for letting me know about Italy.

I feel something has shifted but subtle is the word. I would really like to check it out with you so will keep posting when I get back. If only to record daily experience.

I am feeling at times permeable......but then lose touch with this sense.
Aware very much of negative emotions - not acted on but they are there - they rise and fall.

If I direct my awareness to encompass sights, sounds, sensations I do feel a sense of connection and non-separation. There is no solid self. Not sure what this means if anything - just recording this. I do need to consciously direct attention.......

Best wishes to you and wonderful Italy,
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

This sounds interesting. I am around today, if that's helpful?

Jonatnan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
I hope you and your family are having a wonderful holiday. Feels abit demanding - that I am posting you whilst you are on holiday.

Not sure where I am at the moment - sense of uncertainty. I have to make a conscious decision to direct my attention to investigating self - lost some momentum. Is this because 'selfing' is such a habit?

I am now back at home and taking my time, allowing space consciously opening out senses, watching thoughts of self arise. Aware of expectations I have about 'liberation':
A task I need to work at
Freedom from suffering
Release from a sense of self
Achievement of the ultimate goal
Becoming someone special

Just being with this.

With all best wishes, Liz

[JonathanR]

Liz

I am sorry. I had thought internet access would have been easier where I am. I'll be back on Friday and have found a way to connect just this morning.

Not sure where I am at the moment - sense of uncertainty. I have to make a conscious decision to direct my attention to investigating self - lost some momentum. Is this because 'selfing' is such a habit?

In reality though, the self simply doesn't exist. Therefore 'selfing' is part of the dream or story of 'having a self'. This story seems quite hypnotic as can the idea that something ('vision' or whatever) has been 'lost'.

Reflection is good. Looking is good but where is the 'Liz' that 'directs her attention'?

'

]A task I need to work at'

What need to work?

Is noticing that there is no 'you' a task?

Apologies for brevity.


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Back in UK now :-)

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
I hope you had a lovely holiday - Italy is very beautiful.

And thank you for your communication - even while on holiday - it was very much appreciated.

I have realised I didn't respond to the information you passed on about the 26th July (today) event in south England. I am in the North West and unable to get there but appreciate knowing these events happen.

As for Liberation....things seem to happen very slowly but I feel progress in that I have a strong sense of my being/entity what ever I can call it, being like a receptor. Receiving signals -sight/sound/sensations/thoughts.
If I sit and allow opening out to happen then a sense of 'self' drops away and receptivity arises. This awareness happens from time to time but not all the time.

I don't know what to say about the belief in 'Liz" it is loosening but there still - a sense of looking out from a centre. I am putting time aside to sit and investigate this delusional 'self' to see what is there - and it is empty.
Is this it???

Best wishes, Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Good to hear from you. The meeting in Worthing was great. So kind of Ilona to put these on.

The continuity of our chat has been interrupted somewhat but you are doing well.

but I feel progress in that I have a strong sense of my being/entity what ever I can call it, being like a receptor. Receiving signals -sight/sound/sensations/thoughts.

I understand. But isn't this idea of 'being/entity' another way of saying 'me'? It may seem to be a more subtle or spiritual idea than 'me' but isn't that what you are saying? There is nothing wrong with sensations at all. But is there a split between that which senses, the sensing its self and the object or 'signal' sensed?

Is it at all possible to 'unglue' this totality so as to obtain a seperate self that 'receives signals'?

Look again at Direct Experience with sensation. Take a basketball or other obvious object. Look at this for a while. What is your immediate experience, right here and now? Is it possible to unpick the 'act of perception' from the 'perceiver' from that which is perceived'?

In what sense is the basketball 'cut off' from 'me'?

If perceiver, perceiving and perceived,.here and now are not actually seperable, where is the separate self?

Are not all sensations arising immediately, moment to moment?

Does 'I' do the sensing?

Does sensing, thinking, feeling all occur without input from a seperate or controling 'me'? If so, can there ever be anything other than an illusory self?

I am putting time aside to sit and investigate this delusional 'self' to see what is there - and it is empty.

This is it exactly! Empty of self- nature. If this is what you meant? Just noticing this is enough.

It helps if the mind is quiet-ish, but we have already seen that thoughts come and go,.including the thought 'I'. These cannot be prevented from arising and are part of an illusion 'I'.

But now that the illusion 'I' is noticed and seen, what notices? Is it thought that notices emptiness?


Best wishes,

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
Feel despondent at the moment. having a sense I am near and yet so far......a sense of desperation to 'know' to 'see'. Will I be always trapped in this illusion - though I know intellectually there is no I to be trapped, I do feel this. I feel very tired too.
Yesterday memories of past sadnesses returned - I have had alot of sadnesses. It felt a real effort to 'apply' that these are memories and their associated physical responses that arise and fall. I am aware of a clinging to a sense of self who has suffered. These things have happened and I am affected by them.

If I sit and direct awareness to looking I can see the emptiness of phenomena and that includes me. There is no fixed self - memories, patterns, habits, psychological processes - no controller. But there is no lightness, just sadness at the moment.

Sense of struggle - what would happen if I let go? What is the pay off of attachment to memories that arise. I don't deliberately seek them out - they are triggered by other factors. So are not solid/fixed themselves so are dependent on other things - so are empty. Sense of having to 'ride them out'.

There is a disengaging going on - a releasing, but don't know what else to say. I will post later.

Thank you so much for you encouragement and attention.
Liz

[lizinprocess]

hi Jonathan - returning to your earlier post.

Quote: ....is there a split between that which senses, the sensing its self and the object or 'signal' sensed?
Is it at all possible to 'unglue' this totality so as to obtain a seperate self that 'receives signals'?

Didn't 'get' this when I first read it but today this feels astounding - and no, there is no separation, I cannot unglue. It is all one.
Trying to stop trying....but don't know how to be with this whole thing. Effort is there in the background - but I see that this is me seeing a separate me as doing this.

The ungluing metaphor - very strong and clear. Effort isn't part of this is it? I can't see it there being part of the whole.

with thanks, Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Hurray! I am really glad this is seen.. Isn't it fantastic? Effort is not part of this. Isn't it simple?

All there is is what IS.

Trying to stop trying....but don't know how to be with this whole thing. Effort is there in the background - but I see that this is me seeing a separate me as doing this

Very good.

Could we rephrase this so that instead of saying 'I see that this is me seeing a separate me as doing this' one might say
'There is no 'me that can see' a separate self as doing this, nevertheless somehow this illusion is noticed?

What is it that 'sees'? Is it thought? Is it a mind? What is it?

Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Quote: What is it that 'sees'? Is it thought? Is it a mind? What is it?

There isn't an 'it'. There is process - continual. Apart from that I don't know.... There isn't an 'I' a separate observing thing. That isn't possible. There is consciousness - but that can't be identified as a separate 'bit',

Contemplating...
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,


So, is there one here now that is doing anything?

[lizinprocess]

Oh Jonathan - I don't know.....
Strongly aware of process happening constantly - but bewildered by irritation that has arisen as a response to something. Just removed myself/let it go but it took awhile to fade. I see a bundle of habits triggering response, sensations arose, sadness, but no solid self 'doing' this.
There is still pain - is anyone 'doing' the pain? I don't see anyone - I see expectations there - wanting not to suffer.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

My last post wasn't much to 'chew' on, was it?

I think you have seen 'no-self' and it is time to ask you some questions that will help to confirm this,.or point to further investigation. It is a bit of a list but should help us both. Depending on how this goes, we may move on to six more questions.

Here are the first lot. Please answer fron Direct Experience. Your answers can be short if you like but please answer each one.


With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences? What thinks? What does?

What is aware?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?


Warm regards,

Jonathan.