No-Self lost - Need to be guided

[nonaparry]

Dearest Jean,

The mind still requires a lot of attentions to let me observe with d.e.

No.
No, it does not! In every single waking moment you are having a direct experience of sensations! In every single waking moment you are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching!!
What requires a tiny bit of attention is to focus on sensation instead of following the thoughts!

The none I-thoughtness mind state, requires energy.

I have never asked you to be in a State; direct experience is not a State! It is not even Special or different! Direct experience is experiencing something directly — through sensation — rather than indirectly — through thought.
If I ask you, "where is your cell phone?" and you remember you usually leave it on the shelf by the door, or you think you might have left it in your jacket pocket, you are experiencing the phone indirectly — through thought.
But if you pat your pockets, and through the sense of touch feel the shape and hardness of the phone, withdraw the item from your pocket and see the physical phone — that is experiencing the phone directly. You experience it through sensation, not through thought.
Does that help?
Direct experience is not a State and not something different; it is happening in every moment, but we rarely focus on it.

I've noticed, witnessing the happening of life, when tired it's very easy to fall asleep.

Good to notice!

A wasp coming around my head: very fast belly contraction without noticing any thoughts. This was followed by me running away. Is that a limbic reaction?

Neuroscience claims that there is no reaction without perception — that is, without thoughts. Is it true? I don't know. But what I do know is that "limbic reaction" is a story, an explanation of how Life was working in that moment.
There is no explanation in direct experience, in sensation-prior-to-thought, in the uninterpreted moment, which is where I want you to place focus!

Similar then above but I was in d.e. when suddenly a loud noise arise to the hear --> heart start beating fast. I couldn't see thoughts. I believe a limbic reaction.

No, you weren't "in d.e." Direct experience is not a place and is not a State. It is only sensation. And sensation is present 24/7 whether you are focusing on it or not.

Direct experience is not a practice! It is what you experience before thought begins to describe your experience.
When you are engaged in an activity, is there a thought-commentary that describes what you are doing? Many people experience a "voice" that describes what is happening as it occurs.

Not in d.e.: Feels the heat of the sun --> Jean jumped into the water, without being really aware.
In d.e.: Feels the heat of the sun --> Jean jumped into the water being aware of the cause and effect.

No, sweetheart.
At the moment Jean jumped into the water, are you claiming that there was no awareness at all? How can that be? Jean was aware of feeling hot!
Do you mean that Jean jumped into the water before he thought, "I'm hot, I will jump into the water to cool off"?
What exactly is cause-and-effect but a Story, an explanation, about how Life happens? Because we call it "scientific", we assume there is Proof that it is true. But what exactly is that Proof except more thoughts?
In direct experience, is there Proof that cause-and-effect is true?

I've also found interesting to understand the differences between self inquiry and d.e.

I notice you did not understand what d.e. is — I described it fully above. Is it more clear now? I am considering having you work with a guide who is fluent in French, as I wonder if the language is a barrier.

Please revisit our dialogue in light of what you now know d.e. to be — data from the senses, not a state nor a practice.

love,
Nona

[thejumper]

Good morning Nona,

Yesterday evening while reading again your below instructions, I've experienced the illusion of I-tought.
Wouaw, happy!
I was looking at the hearing and suddenly it was obvious there was no I. Saw through the illusion! Then did with the touching, again, no "I".
Don't no if it has importance: after the illusion was seen, I felt needles itches in hands and arms, my neck was very tough and painful. The hearing start to be very clear. Now and since yesterday I can hear sound I've never notice, like a perpetual background hight frequency noise. Not very pleasant, but it's ok.
It is so simple and very subtle shift. It seems it could be lost... but who/what could loose a non-existent believe?¿
I didn't experienced an Haha moment and the meditation I did afterwards wasn't any special.
Now, what to do, confirm? Could you advise?

Shift focus from thoughts about self and no self to sensation. Close the eyes to eliminate the distractions of sight. Focus on the sensations of hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.
At this moment NOW, what are you actually experiencing? Pressure, sounds, possibly a scent or a flavour. That is all. Check it!!
If ALL you experience with the five senses is pressure, sound, scent and flavour, then what is the I??

Kindness,
Jean

[nonaparry]

Dearest Jean,

Yesterday evening while reading again your below instructions, I've experienced the illusion of I-tought.
Wouaw, happy!
I was looking at the hearing and suddenly it was obvious there was no I. Saw through the illusion! Then did with the touching, again, no "I".
...
It is so simple and very subtle shift. It seems it could be lost... but who/what could loose a non-existent believe?¿
I didn't experienced an Haha moment and the meditation I did afterwards wasn't any special.
Now, what to do, confirm? Could you advise?

This is excellent!!

Please answer my most recent post, particularly with regard to direct experience. Then we will address anything that is still unclear before I ask you the questions we ask of all who have seen through the illusion.

With much love
Nona

[thejumper]

Dear Nona,

No, it does not! In every single waking moment you are having a direct experience of sensations! In every single waking moment you are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching!!
What requires a tiny bit of attention is to focus on sensation instead of following the thoughts!

Yes but the tiny bit is not none. This minimum of attention can require more effort for some people. I tend to be a very absent-minded person...

I have never asked you to be in a State; direct experience is not a State! It is not even Special or different! Direct experience is experiencing something directly — through sensation — rather than indirectly — through thought.
If I ask you, "where is your cell phone?" and you remember you usually leave it on the shelf by the door, or you think you might have left it in your jacket pocket, you are experiencing the phone indirectly — through thought.
But if you pat your pockets, and through the sense of touch feel the shape and hardness of the phone, withdraw the item from your pocket and see the physical phone — that is experiencing the phone directly. You experience it through sensation, not through thought.
Does that help?
Direct experience is not a State and not something different; it is happening in every moment, but we rarely focus on it.

I believe I did understood what is d.e. In this context, speaking about state was not to be taken literally. When I said "The none I-thoughtness mind state, requires energy" should be understood as effort in order to be attentive. This require a minimum of focus. As written, I'm a very absent-minded person, paying attention has always required more efforts then for most of people.
The phone analogy is a good one. But what can also happen is: You pat your pockets, get the the sense of touch feel the phone, and suddenly your attention is taken by some new event. Your hand is still on the pocket and phone, but you then loose the focus and the awareness of having your hand on the pocket/phone.

Similar then above but I was in d.e. when suddenly a loud noise arise to the hear --> heart start beating fast. I couldn't see thoughts. I believe a limbic reaction.

1. No, you weren't "in d.e." Direct experience is not a place and is not a State. It is only sensation. And sensation is present 24/7 whether you are focusing on it or not.
Direct experience is not a practice! It is what you experience before thought begins to describe your experience.
2. When you are engaged in an activity, is there a thought-commentary that describes what you are doing? Many people experience a "voice" that describes what is happening as it occurs.

1.I was intentionally paying attention to my senses in order to catch the before thoughts experience. Also the senses are 24/7 working, if you don't pay attention/focus, you can easily be aware of the happening only after the thought has arisen.
2. It has happened, but sincerely I've never been very aware of this phenomena.

Not in d.e.: Feels the heat of the sun --> Jean jumped into the water, without being really aware.
In d.e.: Feels the heat of the sun --> Jean jumped into the water being aware of the cause and effect.

1. At the moment Jean jumped into the water, are you claiming that there was no awareness at all? How can that be? Jean was aware of feeling hot! Do you mean that Jean jumped into the water before he thought, "I'm hot, I will jump into the water to cool off"?
2. What exactly is cause-and-effect but a Story, an explanation, about how Life happens? Because we call it "scientific", we assume there is Proof that it is true. But what exactly is that Proof except more thoughts?
In direct experience, is there Proof that cause-and-effect is true?

1. Jean was not consciously paying attention to anything. I didn't notice an "I'm hot" thought. This doesn't mean there wasn't any, but only that I hadn't been aware of a possible "I'm hot" thought.
2. No, that cannot be. No story = no thought, no thought = no cause-effect.

I notice you did not understand what d.e. is — I described it fully above. Is it more clear now? I am considering having you work with a guide who is fluent in French, as I wonder if the language is a barrier.

It is clear, as you said "What requires a tiny bit of attention is to focus on sensation instead of following the thoughts" but this tiny bit of attention can take more room for some people. It's my case.

What I report yesterday about the past week doesn't really matter any more, does it?

Kindness,
Jean

[nonaparry]

Dearest Jean,

What I report yesterday about the past week doesn't really matter any more, does it?

Perhaps not.

The phone analogy is a good one. But what can also happen is: You pat your pockets, get the the sense of touch feel the phone, and suddenly your attention is taken by some new event. Your hand is still on the pocket and phone, but you then loose the focus and the awareness of having your hand on the pocket/phone.

Fair enough.

Please answer the following in detail and with complete honesty:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

with love,
Nona

[thejumper]

Dear Nona,

My today homework... long one.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, nothing more then awareness + thoughts + sensations. There has never been an "I". But the presence of a self hasn't disappear neither. It just doesn't have the same consistency. Example: Today, being late for an appointment, the thought "I'm late" arose. Now, having seen through the illusion, this "I" doesn't mean that much. When in doubt, and it happens, a look for it, with the help of the senses, reveals the imposture again. The process of looking/checking is very fast, also I haven't had yet the opportunity to check in more involving situations, where big emotions arise. Might be less obvious, don't know.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

We know the I-thought is a sticky-thought placed before any other thoughts, taking ownership of stories built around memories and sensations-generated thoughts. That the theory.
In practice, the difficulty, if I can say, is to pay attention and really let experiencing be, WITHOUT interfering. Doing so, awareness "sees" again there is no one home. Then, it's like if the awareness was telling quickly to the "I": "Hey you! you don't exist". Nothing to find.
Also it's still easy to be taken away by thoughts, but because the I-illusion is seen, the brain now seems to know, if desired, how to easily check again the non-existence of the "I". To do so --> focus on the senses and face the simplicity by noticing the unfolding of life, where no I-presence can be seen, no "I" exists.
When overflowed by thoughts, STOP and check.
It may become more natural/automatic. Will see.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

At the moment I realized, it seemed obvious: This is it! Then I start doubting, is it really that? so subtle, a simple new perception?! I've then checked again, no self could be seen neither, with any of the senses.
Also it is very new, the day to day life appears as usual with a kind of lighter, fuzzy sensation. Then there is this sense of experiences unfolding by themselves. An awareness of life-ing. Life is happening in Jean's consciousness. Kind of Jean being lived, looking at the happening of what Jean is doing.
Since then, there is also the presence of a very high-pitched on the hears. It's not too disturbing but clearly present.
I now enjoy to stop, just in order to feel this kind of "beeingness".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

In general I have difficulties to focus. I had to try again and again in order to only pay attention to senses, without being distract or taken away by thoughts.
Two nights ago, after reading your below instructions and well decided to follow them step by step, I closed my eyes, as instructed, and place my focus on the hearing. I suddenly felt a change of perspective in hearing. Hearing was happening, then pressures on the body were happening.
The word "NOW", as you wrote it was memorized. It was the key with the good timing.

The instruction that pushed me over:
"Shift focus from thoughts about self and no self to sensation. Close the eyes to eliminate the distractions of sight. Focus on the sensations of hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.
At this moment NOW, what are you actually experiencing? Pressure, sounds, possibly a scent or a flavour. That is all. Check it!!
If ALL you experience with the five senses is pressure, sound, scent and flavour, then what is the I??"

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Experience is still very little. I see better acceptance of life as it is. No one is driving, but Jean's is still an unfolding element of life. Thus, because there is no free will, is easier to stop worry and choose to look at the good side of the happening.
No free will also means less judgements --> less expectations --> less disillusionments. But because conditioned thinking and behaviour are still present, the risk might be a pseudo/fault acceptance, ending in new hidden mental believes, shadows. How the conditioning will be dropped or what to do, is something I haven't really address yet. For now I see them as thoughts based on an illusion.

Under this new perspective, but with such a short experience, I can only speculate on what will be my and others choices/control: Less judgements --> less stories --> better clarity --> better understanding --> easier decisions. The result of seeing more clearly, brings a better understanding of the context, which should probably make decisions to be taken more easily and more in accordance with/, acceptance to others.

What is nice about the unfolding of this illusion, I probability won't battle with "myself" any more while doing all the daily stuff...

6) Anything to add?

- The work around the body, at the beginning of the guidance, has been very helpful. It has helped me in compensate for my lack of ability to focus.
- At a certain point in the quest, I felt overloaded, too many things to observe, to do. I should have told. It might be a good idea not to give different exercises in parallel, but rather push the seeker to only focus on one for some days, and only then proceed to the next step.
- The explanations about how to d.e. were very clear. Well done. Also the path are very different, I still tent to mistaken d.e. with the traditional self-enquiry, where the instruction are even more easy to grasp (Who am I?).

I feel to keep on with one path or another, but before, the need of some support/follow-up in case of difficulties might be a good idea. Facebook group?
Nona, I own you one and +++... you have well managed Jean. Again, sorry for our few misunderstandings.

Kindness,
Jean

[nonaparry]

Thank you Jean!

Before I ask other guides to look at your answers, I want to ask about this: You wrote

the presence of a self hasn't disappear neither.

What do you mean by "the presence of a self"? Is this an actual presence of an actual self? Or something else?
You gave an example of an "I" thought arising:

Today, being late for an appointment, the thought "I'm late" arose.

Did you imagine that after seeing through the illusion of self that thoughts of "I" will no longer arise?
I-thoughts are conditioned through years of socialisation and are reinforced by the language. I-thoughts don't disappear; but as you described, they are seen for what they are: merely self-referential thoughts!

Also, while I appreciate that this shift is brand new for you, it is important to give examples from experience for Q.5. Please describe how some apparent choice happens today. For example, how did the selection of breakfast foods happen? How did the selection of clothing happen? Or choose something over which you used to believe you had control and describe how it occurs without a "you" in control.

When you have replied, I will ask the other guides to look at our dialogue to see if they have any questions for you. When they are satisfies, you will be invited to our "aftercare" groups where you will meet others who have seen through the illusion.

I thank you very much for your remarks about giving too many exercises simultaneously. And I am delighted that some parts were very clear.

With much love,
Nona

[thejumper]

Dear Nona,

Good you ask. I'm confuse today, things seem less clear. It is different then 2 days ago where the awareness was continue.

Before I ask other guides to look at your answers, I want to ask about this: You wrote

the presence of a self hasn't disappear neither.

1. What do you mean by "the presence of a self"? Is this an actual presence of an actual self? Or something else?
You gave an example of an "I" thought arising:

Today, being late for an appointment, the thought "I'm late" arose.

2. Did you imagine that after seeing through the illusion of self that thoughts of "I" will no longer arise?
I-thoughts are conditioned through years of socialisation and are reinforced by the language. I-thoughts don't disappear; but as you described, they are seen for what they are: merely self-referential thoughts!

1. I know, as you told me, it is not a state, but where I get confused is the presence/absence doesn't appear to be regular during the day. Is not continue. It seems to be related to what I'm doing, how I'm doing it. Also is not exact, the closest pattern I came with is:
- When active, doing work with intensity --> I have to bring the attention on senses in order to notate the difference, be aware of the non-existence of "I".
- When active but working in a calm fashion or when simply relaxing --> No "I", I see "I" as a self-referential thoughts and "feel" lighter.

2. No didn't expect as you have already explain me the thoughts of "I" will still arise.

give examples from experience for Q.5. Please describe how some apparent choice happens today. For example, how did the selection of breakfast foods happen? How did the selection of clothing happen? Or choose something over which you used to believe you had control and describe how it occurs without a "you" in control.

Being in the present moment, I see the gap in the action of grabbing something and the noticing of the action. I believe that I-illusion is still here, it takes ownership of the action. But this is not always true. It can also be without the "I" interfering, like tapping on the keyboard.

My understanding is: Things are not settle down, also the illusion is seen but it might not be strong enough. Too many resistances.
At this point I rather prefer to think: Back to work, also something is different.

I thank you very much for your remarks about giving too many exercises simultaneously. And I am delighted that some parts were very clear.

Nona, all the instructions were crystal clear. It's me who can sometime take "short-cuts". This brain is build as it is, including the content from other knowledges. To read the article, comparing the 2 approaches made things even clearer. You know how brains can be tricky... Nevertheless d.e. was done as you explained.

Kindness,
Jean

[nonaparry]

Dearest Jean,

1. I know, as you told me, it is not a state, but where I get confused is the presence/absence doesn't appear to be regular during the day. Is not continue. It seems to be related to what I'm doing, how I'm doing it. Also is not exact, the closest pattern I came with is:
- When active, doing work with intensity --> I have to bring the attention on senses in order to notate the difference, be aware of the non-existence of "I".
- When active but working in a calm fashion or when simply relaxing --> No "I", I see "I" as a self-referential thoughts and "feel" lighter.

A continuous awareness of no self would be a State.
Is there any awareness you experience that is continuous? Is there anything of which you are constantly aware at all?

Seeing there is no self is not a constant State; it is a realisation much like the realisation that there is no such entity as Santa Claus, no such entity as the Tooth Fairy, no such entity as Batman. These are imaginary characters, just like "self". Only I bet you do not spend 24 hours a day being aware there is no Santa, Tooth Fairy, and Batman. You just know it, it's a Fact! And if you were to think of a Santa or a Tooth Fairy or a Batman, you would have no doubt about their reality.

What is important is not a constant awareness of no self, but the ability, when you say or write "I" or "me", to smile and know that these are just labels, helpful in conversation, but not entities in reality.

Being in the present moment, I see the gap in the action of grabbing something and the noticing of the action. I believe that I-illusion is still here, it takes ownership of the action. But this is not always true. It can also be without the "I" interfering, like tapping on the keyboard.

The thought "I did it" arises as a habit, as part of the language we use every day. But this does not mean that you are still caught in the illusion! If you are able to SEE that tapping on a keyboard happens with or without an "I", you are not caught in the illusion. It is Believing that there is an actual "I", an actual "self" that is DO-ing the action that has us caught in illusion.

Things are not settle down, also the illusion is seen but it might not be strong enough. Too many resistances.

You have XX years of habitual behaviour and thought that still happens — SEEing through the illusion of self is perfectly strong — and it will take time for it to settle and for all the consequences of your new perception to become obvious. This is why we have aftercare groups — to help with the settling in.

At this point I rather prefer to think: Back to work, also something is different.

Do you doubt that you have seen through the illusion? Is there any such entity as a "self" in reality? What is missing? What expectation has not been fulfilled?

Nona, all the instructions were crystal clear. It's me who can sometime take "short-cuts". This brain is build as it is, including the content from other knowledges. To read the article, comparing the 2 approaches made things even clearer. You know how brains can be tricky... Nevertheless d.e. was done as you explained.

Thank you, dear Jean. This is good to know.


One last detail — you did not give an example from experience of the lack of choice or control. Could you please describe an event over which you once believed you had a choice or control and how you view a similar event today? It can be simple, like how you got out of bed, or what you ate for breakfast, or which clothing you put on.

With much love,
Nona

[thejumper]

Dear Nona,

A continuous awareness of no self would be a State.
Is there any awareness you experience that is continuous? Is there anything of which you are constantly aware at all?

I see the point. Tricky.
Indeed, it seems the continuous awareness of anything can not be. Aware of sth is intrinsically none-continuous.

What is important is not a constant awareness of no self, but the ability, when you say or write "I" or "me", to smile and know that these are just labels, helpful in conversation, but not entities in reality.

;)

The thought "I did it" arises as a habit, as part of the language we use every day. But this does not mean that you are still caught in the illusion! If you are able to SEE that tapping on a keyboard happens with or without an "I", you are not caught in the illusion. It is Believing that there is an actual "I", an actual "self" that is DO-ing the action that has us caught in illusion.

You have XX years of habitual behaviour and thought that still happens — SEEing through the illusion of self is perfectly strong — and it will take time for it to settle and for all the consequences of your new perception to become obvious. This is why we have aftercare groups — to help with the settling in.

Helpful those two paragraphs.

Do you doubt that you have seen through the illusion? Is there any such entity as a "self" in reality? What is missing? What expectation has not been fulfilled?

No, the illusion is seen. There is no self, it's an illusion. The complementaries expectations helped to clarify.
The surprise is when realizing what is the realization. Jointly subtle and deep.

One last detail — you did not give an example from experience of the lack of choice or control. Could you please describe an event over which you once believed you had a choice or control and how you view a similar event today? It can be simple, like how you got out of bed, or what you ate for breakfast, or which clothing you put on.

Who decides to read this post now? Who decides the example to write?
Who/what is the doer? Who/what knows? It happens, trust is enough.

Kindness,
Jean

[nonaparry]

Dearest Jean,

I have asked other guides to look at our conversation.

love,
Nona