Requesting a guide!

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:47 am

Hi Sarah,
In that seeing without labeling is there separation?
Sarah, I spent a lot of time in the past questioning about non separation, but what do you mean by that?
About the time I started reading the gatecrashers book I realized I could be looking straight at it and not see it for what it was.
So a little info from the past.
It was a beautiful warm fall day and I was at a 7 day retreat. The sun was shining, beautiful white puffy clouds in the sky. The leaves on the trees all a golden red,orange and yellow, making a rustling sounds in the breeze. I was sitting in a Japanese computer chair. The teacher was lecturing when all of a sudden by mind/brain(?) made a funny thunk(?) and I started spreading outwards. It actually felt like the brain changed modes of perception. The I was the “I am”, beingness maybe. I was then the breezes, the rustling sounds, the leaves, everything perceivable “I”was. It actually felt as if the breezes were the breathing of a larger organism. I still realized the i/body was still the center. I then sat there and watched the field start to collapse.
It would be at the wall of the room and kept shrinking until I could see it disappear around me.
I told my teacher and she said it collapsed because I tried to hold on to it. I assume this was “Oneness”.
Is non separation the same idea, or is it so very subtle you need more looking to recognize it? Sometimes the things I see in DE/no label almost glow or jump out at me. I already mentioned the building with the red flowers.
Do you see even when you have attention on one thing/object – is seeing still happening elsewhere? Do you take in more than you label? See if the eyes take in everything – but they don’t label everything!
Instead of walking I sat next to a creek running behind the condos where I live. The birds were singing, dogs barking, and bugs visiting often. I was doing DE but it took awhile for the unlabeling/noself to start. Eventually the creek and its banks were seen. It’s really weird to see your own legs that way, they look very strange.
As to your questions, you're not talking about some unified field are you? This is hard to explain, but sometimes at night while sitting, I’ll be listening to the sounds in the condo and I will hear cars driving by and it sounds like everything is being heard in the same place?
Other than that, sure I will be seeing/DE’ing and I still hear birds or whatever.
A lot of times, at night. it seems that when I look out from the balcony at the parking lot and the other buildings, everything is seen in DE/no label. I think that is the effect of the street lights and building lights. etc. They kind of create a bright relief against the darkness.
I tried that today and it didn’t work. After about 15 feet out I couldn’t tell if there was no label or not.
When you ask if the eyes take in more than they label, of course they take in everything. It used to amaze me to look down a long, large street and see the perfect reproduction the eyes were producing.
Is this what you needed to know?
And Sarah, am I writing way too much?

Thank youfor being my guide! -- Larryxxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:59 am

Hi Larry
In that seeing without labeling is there separation?
I was doing DE but it took awhile for the unlabeling/noself to start.
Did ‘you’ ‘do’ DE? Or did it just happen when it wanted? So when noself starts – what stops?
This is hard to explain, but sometimes at night while sitting, I’ll be listening to the sounds in the condo and I will hear cars driving by and it sounds like everything is being heard in the same place?
Exactly! And was there separation? You being separate from what was heard?
When you ask if the eyes take in more than they label, of course they take in everything. It used to amaze me to look down a long, large street and see the perfect reproduction the eyes were producing.
Is this what you needed to know?
Yes. And was there separation? Or everything being part of what is? Can you know that your eyes produce a perfect reproduction? Or is that story?
Are the reflections separate from the mirror? Is there separation anywhere but in thought?
Keep looking. Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:36 am

Hi Sarah,
This is hard to explain, but sometimes at night while sitting, I’ll be listening to the sounds in the condo and I will hear cars driving by and it sounds like everything is being heard in the same place?
Exactly! And was there separation? You being separate from what was heard?

First:To answer your question, yes, there is still separation in hearing the sounds.

Sarah, the whole problem rests right here. 35 years ago I was in a community college. I took some psychology courses.”the observer is the observed” is a S/R relationship. No stimulus, no response and if stimulus then there had to be a response. I used to call this a singularity. It was one movement, you couldn't have a stimulus without a response. I was reading a lot of krishnamurti at the time and he was always saying “the observer is the observed”. Nisargadatta the same,”I am that”. I then felt that if there was nothing to call the self then “as a singularity” the stimulus had to take it’s place,(non separation) but this as all thought! So there is a blockage here. I’m still seeing separation when listening, or seeing. I don’t know why.
When driving back from the supermarket this afternoon the trees along the road where were so clear and green, blowing in the breeze, again almost glowing. Very, very clear, very real. There is something going on but I’m not sure what. That felt almost other worldly! Very intense!? So as what to do? As you once said:

"Keep looking! Everywhere. Watch as a cat watches a mouse hole! :)"

No choice but to keep with the DE'ing.
Looking forward to your reply. -- Larryxxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:50 pm

Hi Larry
I was reading a lot of krishnamurti at the time and he was always saying
You are obviously well read. BUT these are all just words. Nothing else. Are you looking for the truth in words? Its not there – that’s just more mind stuff. If the truth was there you would have found it by now – wouldn’t you? As you correctly state – its all thought! Every statement needs verifying yourself.
I’m still seeing separation when listening, or seeing. I don’t know why.
Look at this – is it a thought? Is there also an expectation that something – anything will change? Are you wanting a ‘glowing, very clear, very real experience that felt almost other worldly and very intense’? What else is there but THIS?

Take a look with eyes through the window. See the sky. Is it contained in the body?
Listen to distant traffic or other distant sounds, are they happening in the body?
How big is your body? Is skin the container of experienced?
Do you see with eyes behind eyes or you imagine it? See what is visible field, where it ends and where memory, thoughts say that there must be something there. With eyes open, you see a screen, just like computer screen, but edgeless. Can you see something that is not on the screen? Can you see what is behind without turning head? Can you see inside of body? In the view, is there inside and outside?
Lots of Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:58 am

Hi Sarah,
lmellen wrote:
I’m still seeing separation when listening, or seeing. I don’t know why.

Look at this – is it a thought?
Sarah, of course it's a thought, how else can I tell you that I'm not seeing non separation? I'm not sure what you mean.
Is there also an expectation that something – anything will change?
I assume that if I'm not seeing non separation now, when I do there will be some perceptual difference.
Are you wanting a ‘glowing, very clear, very real experience that felt almost other worldly and very intense’? What else is there but THIS?
I could care less about that, but if seeing happens and it's there I'm not going to complain about it.The last episode took me by surprise, and I still think it was spectacular! It was still this!
Also I do want to go beyond the vagueness. You ask if I see and I would like to answer with something better than "well, kinda of, sorta of, maybe"
Take a look with eyes through the window. See the sky. Is it contained in the body?
Listen to distant traffic or other distant sounds, are they happening in the body?
.

God, what a question. I'm still a pragmatist! The perceiving action of DE might be in the body, but the whole sky can't be.
I don't know where sound is being heard, I can't tell if it is inside or outside. Probably neither, but then where?
How big is your body? Is skin the container of experienced?
I don't know. My body is only as big as it is. I was listening to some birds earlier; that is an experience; and I suppose that if there was non separation that would be beyond the container. Not sure of the question.
Do you see with eyes behind eyes or you imagine it?
Not sure about this one either. Some times it feels as if there is something looking through the eyes. Not sure.
See what is visible field, where it ends and where memory, thoughts say that there must be something there. With eyes open, you see a screen, just like computer screen, but edgeless. Can you see something that is not on the screen?
No.
Can you see what is behind without turning head? Can you see inside of body? In the view, is there inside and outside?
No.

Sarah, thanks for the questions, but obviously some were beyond me.
Thanks for the guidance -- Larryxxx

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:47 pm

Hi sarah,
Take a look with eyes through the window. See the sky. Is it contained in the body?
Listen to distant traffic or other distant sounds, are they happening in the body? .
God, what a question. I'm still a pragmatist! The perceiving action of DE might be in the body, but the whole sky can't be.
I don't know where sound is being heard, I can't tell if it is inside or outside. Probably neither, but then where?
.

Sarah, way back in the late 80's I was at another retreat. A round of sitting ended with the bell. I sighed, took a deep breath and leaned back against the wall. As soon as my back hit the wall a space in my head opened up. That space was infinite in size and contained the whole universe. I don't have the faintest idea how I knew this! I just did! Is this somehow related to the sky being in the body?

Thank You again for the time -- Larryxxx

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Sorry Sarah, but this is bothering me. My body is my body, so do you actually mean an infinite state
of awareness? That actually belongs to nobody. That space in my head did not belong to me! How can the sky actually fit in MY space?


Sorry if I'm being a pain -- Larry

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:28 pm

Hi Larry
Sarah, of course it's a thought, how else can I tell you that I'm not seeing non separation? I'm not sure what you mean.
Outside of thought is there separation? When looking is happening but not labelling – is there separation? When listening is happening – is there separation? Look.
I assume that if I'm not seeing non separation now, when I do there will be some perceptual difference.
Exactly – an assumption. Is it what is experienced? If not – rule it out till it has been verified. Do that for everything you have read – ever!
The last episode took me by surprise, and I still think it was spectacular! It was still this! Also I do want to go beyond the vagueness.
Exactly! A want – to go back there, to not be vague. Yes everything experienced is what is – but thoughts are not of the now – just in the now. Thoughts want some beautiful future utopia, clarity and change, or to reclaim a past that is now only imagined…….whatever…..! Look.
The perceiving action of DE might be in the body, but the whole sky can't be. I don't know where sound is being heard, I can't tell if it is inside or outside. Probably neither, but then where?
Keep looking and hearing. Test it every time remembering happens. Where is seeing happening – over there or ‘here’. Where is hearing happening – over there, around there or ‘here’?
How can the sky actually fit in MY space?
Is it experienced ‘here’? See what is visible field, where it ends and where memory, thoughts say that there must be something there. With eyes open, you see a screen, just like computer screen, but edgeless.
Can you see thoughts trying to grasp this? Can you watch that without following content?
Lots of love Sarah xxxxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:15 am

Hi Sarah,

I've come down with Labyrinthitis, comes on quickly, goes away quickly. Will be okay tomorrow.
Thank you for the last post, lots of good looking there.
Again, thank you for taking the time to do this. -- Larryxxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:17 am

Oh bless Larry! Ive had that! You take care. Love and Hugs
Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:02 am

Hi Sarah,

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing?


"Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it
later?"
NO!

"Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it?"
NO!

"Are the object and the seeing of it inseparable?"
YES!

"Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing?"
NO!

"Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing?"
NO!

"Or is there only seeing?
ONLY SEEING!

Sarah,
I spent most of the day looking, asking questions, answering the above questions, and doing DE. Tonight, I'm watching TV, and asking where was I hearing the sounds, or where was I seeing the TV. This was going on for a hour or two. I got up to go to get some more tea, looked around the room,and realized I was not separate from anything! Everything in my field of vision was in non separation.
All winter I would be practicing my guitar at night, get a warm fuzzy feeling in my chest area, look into the other room, and realize some kind of shift took place. I would go into the room, but I never could figure out what was happening. Something changed, but what? Now I know, everything in the room shifted to non separation! All I was doing was practicing my guitar, didn't even know what DE was; though I was reading the gatecrashers book and the posts on the LU website.
I have to stay with this for awhile, so if we can stay with this for a few days I’d appreciate it. Still not sure of the full import of this.

Amazing, absolutely amazing!!

Sarah, Thank you again for the time! -- Larryxxx

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:12 am

Sarah, I should add that I'm not seeing "I am That". I'm still not sure what that means. I answered the questions as best as possible using DE.
Thanks again - Larryxxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:20 pm

Hi Larry
I spent most of the day looking, asking questions, answering the above questions, and doing DE. Tonight, I'm watching TV, and asking where was I hearing the sounds, or where was I seeing the TV. This was going on for a hour or two. I got up to go to get some more tea, looked around the room,and realized I was not separate from anything! Everything in my field of vision was in non separation.
Wonderful! Keep testing this with different things – e.g. distance or close up or body!
All winter I would be practicing my guitar at night, get a warm fuzzy feeling in my chest area, look into the other room, and realize some kind of shift took place. I would go into the room, but I never could figure out what was happening. Something changed, but what? Now I know, everything in the room shifted to non separation!
Notice thoughts trying to write, claim, own and explain with story!
Plus – check – were you really separate before and now you aren’t? Or is it just a case of it being noticed?
I have to stay with this for awhile, so if we can stay with this for a few days I’d appreciate it.

Take the weekend Larry – Ill keep checking in everyday thought in case you come back earlier. OK.
Also look for expectations that things stay the same! An expectation of this ‘shift’ being permanent.

Just look at this for now – we can look at 'I Am that' later. Have a lovely weekend. Lots of Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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lmellen
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby lmellen » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:16 pm

Hi Sarah,

I realized I'll miss your posts, so I'm back early. You provide a lot of energy!
Plus – check – were you really separate before and now you aren't? Or is it just a case of it being noticed?
No, there was never separation in the first place, it's just easier to see when shifting comes on it's own.
Shifting also comes with DE.
Also look for expectations that things stay the same! An expectation of this ‘shift’ being permanent.
No, I have high energy days and low energy days. It's there to be seen with DE. It's just that some days the mind is restless and won't settle down, some days the intensity is fairly strong and the mind hardly wanders. There seems to be much more shifting on high energy days.

Thank You for the guidance. -- Larryxxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Requesting a guide!

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:27 pm

Hi Larry
No, I have high energy days and low energy days. It's there to be seen with DE. It's just that some days the mind is restless and won't settle down, some days the intensity is fairly strong and the mind hardly wanders. There seems to be much more shifting on high energy days.
Is there a wanting the mind to settle down? Energy comes and goes – story makes it high and low – comparison to past thoughts – sends us straight back to thought wanting to control and predict. Do you see this?
Energy just is. Restlessness just is. Wandering just is. What else is there?

Anything else need to be looked at? Any more questions?
Lots of Love Sarah xxxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.


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