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[matumba]

Hi ES,
Just a quick note with comments and a question.
Thanks for the suggestions and your time. It feels like my head is swimming a bit and I am trying to condense everything down to just looking, and noticing. It seems like I've been analyzing a bit too much lately. That leads me to my question:
Has it been your experience that people tend to cycle with their "growth" while looking. I know its that way with most things and this is probably not different. I've noticed it is more difficult for me to look with focus over the past few days. There always seems to be something popping up to replace looking. Should "I" just accept this as it is or put forth more effort just noticing? At least seemingly put forth more effort? I don't know if the question is phrased so that you can understand.
Thanks,
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

I'm getting the feeling that you're experiencing resistance to this process. Resistance can show up as confused thoughts and emotions, including lots of stories about whether you have or haven't seen this, or ever will. The thing to do with resistance is to let it in and make friends with it. Ask if there is underlying fear or confusion. Then just watch the confusion and fear play out. Listen to it. Ask where it's coming from.

The thinking process may be trying the best it can to figure out something that can't be figured out by logic and analysis. But that's what it knows how to do, think through things rationally!

Emotions can have a protective function, like the fear that happens if you're in physical danger. Try to find out what the emotions are trying to protect here. Nothing that's here in experience now will go away. It's the same life, viewed in a different way. Seeing isn't making something go away. It's finding out what was never there in the first place.

It's like these optical illusions. There seem to be triangles in these images, but it's really a trick of perception.

http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/20 ... -kanizsas/

[matumba]

Thanks ES,
You're very perceptive. I am out of town again for a c o tuple of days and only have a cell and I'm not too good at posting with it. I will keep looking and post in detail Sunday. Thank you for the words of wisdom. Today has been pretty good concerning my focus.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Checking in - spent a good deal of time looking at resistance - will report tomorrow eve when I get back to a PC.

[EmptySet00]

Checking in here, too :)

Looking forward to hearing how it's going.

ES

[matumba]

Thanks ES,
Back later than anticipated and will report tomorrow. Got to spend a good deal of time looking at pain and resistance and have some sticking points for you.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,

The thing to do with resistance is to let it in and make friends with it. Ask if there is underlying fear or confusion. Then just watch the confusion and fear play out. Listen to it. Ask where it's coming from.

I spent a lot of time trying to look and make friends with this resistance… to no avail. The experience of resistance somehow gets qualified as negative when observed – I don’t know what qualifies it as such, that’s just the feeling that arises. Similar to frustration – chest gets tight, unpleasant sensation is the only description applicable. “I” tried several avenues of letting it in and trying to befriend – forgiveness, acceptance, aloof watching, questioning… nothing seemed to work. Frustration and subsequent anger followed, again and again “I” tried observing, but the sensations overwhelmed and focus was lost while anger prevailed. Caught up in the drama, there was a circle of trying to look/accept – then get frustrated and angry, followed by the question who is frustrated and angry? Answer: unknown, but it is there and it is quite unpleasant and felt “personal”. And just like thoughts, there was no control over these emotions… or was there? When “I” had to quit looking and join others, the anger/frustration subsided (as did the looking) and “I” had a pleasant evening compared to looking. So when I got a chance to look again – analyzing popped up – why even look if there is no perceived benefit and only negative connotations? Where is this peace and freedom people speak of? It seems to just validate the old “life is suffering” Buddha quote. Why not just take the blue pill and enjoy the illusion?

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing this pain. It can be difficult to do this sort of "looking" with painful sensations, because the natural tendency is to want to avoid feeling those sensations. But it can also be very powerful to stay with the bare sensation of pain, even if only briefly. Is there a distinction between the raw experience of the pain and thoughts about it?

Then I had some intense pain. I’ve got a couple of chronic conditions that are not at all dangerous or fatal (or treatable), but the pain associated is excruciating at times. I have to be alone because really the only thing that eases the pain is audibly moaning with every exhale. You can imagine that would not be pleasant to be around, but it is the only thing to ease the pain a bit. Not telling you that for sympathy or anything, just to give you some background as to what condition this body is in when “I” try observing pain. It is a total brick wall. The pain cannot be pierced by looking. “I” can’t get past it. Episodes last usually 30-45 minutes and “I” know the pain is temporary, and must be accepted, but that’s what it is. All consuming at that time. Looking back at it does no good since it is just a memory – but in those moments whatever is aware of pain sure does wish it wasn’t aware!

Emotions can have a protective function, like the fear that happens if you're in physical danger. Try to find out what the emotions are trying to protect here.

So I reread your comments on emotions having protective function and was really hoping to get some insight into what was being protected? Why does this experience seemingly suck so much? What is it that needs protecting? An answer never came, but the anger/frustration loop didn’t pop up when “I” asked that question –maybe that was analyzing and not really looking? That experience was not nearly as unpleasant – but none of those experiences would qualify as fulfilling.
So feeling a bit off-track here :(
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

Be honest here, please. Why are you doing this?

I'm hearing a desire for more pleasant emotions and more peaceful states. This is not really what "seeing" is about. The focus has to be on *what's going on here*, right here, right now. This may include desires for more pleasant experiences. Seeing can happen anywhere, at any time, whether what's going on is pleasant or not. The question is, does anything other than thoughts distinguish between what is "you" and "yours", and what is "not you" and "not yours"? You may *think* there is a boundary, *feel* like there is a boundary- but where is it?

Right here, right now, can you find your self?

Ask of each sensation, each thought, each feeling - Is this me? Is this mine? Did I make it happen this way? Do I control it?


Let me know what comes up when you look at these things.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Yes, even before reading your post my attention was drawn to expectations and how that affected my looking. Do I control it – no, but “I” sure want to haha.

Ask of each sensation, each thought, each feeling - Is this me? Is this mine? Did I make it happen this way? Do I control it?

Even though these thoughts aren’t controllable, the habit of feeling like I can control them is pretty strong.

Let me know what comes up when you look at these things.

I am looking now with a different attitude or perspective. It is more like operating under the main assumption that "I" don't control anything, despite the feelings and thoughts that "I" do - kind of feels like "self" denial. It just seems that looking for me, my, mine and knowing it is not there leads to analysis. So - hoping this way of looking will work and maybe keep "me" from analyzing and falling back into the thought.
What do "you" think?
Thanks,
John

[EmptySet00]

Sure, it can be useful to experiment with the sense of control. When does control seem to exist, and when doesn't it? Are you controling some things and not others? Is the desire for control, or even a sense of control, actually something that can be in control? Are you afraid of losing control? If there is no control, you're not going to lose something that was never there to begin with!

Is there something else you're afraid of losing? The only thing that can be lost here is illusions. The triangles in the optical illusions I linked to earlier don't "go away" when you see through the illusion. They were never there in the first place!

Close your eyes, hold out your hands, and imagine that you're holding a ball at arm's length. See its shape in your imagination, and feel its weight. Then open your eyes. What happens? If you imagine something in your mind, does that thing become real outside of thoughts? Does it "go away" when you stop thinking about it, if it wasn't there in the first place?

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Even though it’s obvious I am not in control – of anything – I cannot shake the feeling or appearance that “I” am. Easier for some things than others of course. Just planning things, and when to do certain things bolster the illusion of “I”. This must be habitual thought because the "I" that can't shake the feeling can't be found, but who has this habitual thought - it must just be thought.

Is the desire for control, or even a sense of control, actually something that can be in control?

I like that question – the sense of control is something I cannot control – If “I” am afraid of losing control, that is something unseen. “I” would LOVE to dissolve the associated stress that accompanies the illusion of control

Close your eyes, hold out your hands, and imagine that you're holding a ball at arm's length. See its shape in your imagination, and feel its weight. Then open your eyes. What happens? If you imagine something in your mind, does that thing become real outside of thoughts? Does it "go away" when you stop thinking about it, if it wasn't there in the first place?

Yes, I can understand this, but its too easy – That ball is gone when I look. Like Plato’s allegory of the cave – if “I” am imagined (which is believed, but not seen) where does this personal feeling come from? Thought?
Still looking!
Thanks,
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

Please describe this "personal feeling" in detail. What is it? Is it there all the time, or does it come and go? Is it stronger at times and weaker at other times, or is it more consistent? Give specific examples of what gives rise to this "personal feeling" and how it manifests.

And keep up the good work!

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,

Please describe this "personal feeling" in detail. What is it? Is it there all the time, or does it come and go? Is it stronger at times and weaker at other times, or is it more consistent?

When I look at this personal feeling, it seems to be just thought and brain/mind/body doing its thing. It is definitely stronger when I’m not looking – that is when “I” arise – when awareness seemingly focuses on problems or tasks or plans etc. It is becoming more apparent the meaning behind “living in the moment” but it is hard to explain in writing.

Give specific examples of what gives rise to this "personal feeling" and how it manifests.

It (personal feeling) arises in conjunction with “me”, so the personal feeling is “me” – and it is just a feeling or a thought… but there is something in here that keeps it from being obviously “seen”. Intuitively, it feels like expectations (of illusory bliss or something akin), or loss of control/power – but there is no control to lose. This intuition may be wrong, but it feels like this mind is scrambling to solve this “problem” to no avail.
I am still looking, and trying not to get caught up in a roller coaster of thought/emotions.
Thanks,
John

[EmptySet00]

Please describe this "personal feeling" in detail. What is it? Is it there all the time, or does it come and go? Is it stronger at times and weaker at other times, or is it more consistent?


When I look at this personal feeling, it seems to be just thought and brain/mind/body doing its thing. It is definitely stronger when I’m not looking – that is when “I” arise – when awareness seemingly focuses on problems or tasks or plans etc. It is becoming more apparent the meaning behind “living in the moment” but it is hard to explain in writing.

Do you mean that you appear when you focus on problems and plans, and disappear when you're "living in the moment"? (I don't think this is what you mean in any literal way, but it is funny to imagine popping in and out of existence based on what thought patterns are going on :) ) Is it an actual self that arises and then goes away? What is it exactly that seems to come and go?

Can you live at any time other than "the moment"? When you plan for the future, are you really in the future?

Please give me more specifics about the "personal feeling". Pay attention to it in the way that you paid attention to eating at the very beginning of this process. Then describe the particulars of the thoughts, emotions, whatever else that you're referring to when you use the words "personal feeling". It may help to do this more than once. You can do this in a journal if you'd like.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Well I am stuck at 4th of July festivities with cell phone and will reply tomorrow in detail.
Thanks,
John