would someone be willing to be my guide please

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

Don't worry. Thank you for letting me know. Glad you found your laptop!


Jonathan

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello,
Yes the 'choice' comment was from direct experience.

I have, in the past, experienced states of timelessness and infinite space.
No boundaries experienced in physical sensations, or rather inside and outside undistinguishable.
For an undefinable duration, no concept of present, past or future.

Today as I lay on the grass was not such an experience. I was thinking about it, conceptualising about it and tuning in with physical sensations etc.. I could clearly identify the contact of the grass tickling my skin, the temperature difference between me and the outside. Whilst at the same time I could contemplate the vastness of water in an ocean as a 'limitlike' entity which gains definition when in contact with 'other', the wave, the shore. A wave is only a passing combination of conditions.

Not clear, but great delight in wind and heat on my skin (and also relief in laptop ownership!).

Carolyn

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

Glad you found your laptop.


I wonder if we could return to 'no-self' again? After this short break it would be good to do some looking.

By now I imagine that you understand the usefulness of examining Direct Experience? This can be done by looking at sense experience, right here, right now. We have seen how DE can also include the experience of thoughts and emotions. Looking at any one of the senses is a useful tool available at any time.


In DE is a 'self' or 'me' found, anywhere in experience?

What is the nature of the thought 'I'?

What is it that knows there is no self?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Is no-self an experience? If so, what 'has' it?




Best wishes,

Jonathan

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello,
I'm working on this. I'll reply in full tomorrow.
Carolyn

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello Jonathan,

By now I imagine that you understand the usefulness of examining Direct Experience? This can be done by looking at sense experience, right here, right now. We have seen how DE can also include the experience of thoughts and emotions. Looking at any one of the senses is a useful tool available at any time.

Yes.

In DE is a 'self' or 'me' found, anywhere in experience?

It this moment 'I' exist as a combination of my current (and to some extent) my past experiences.
This is continually changing. I can't locate it but there is an awareness of 'me searching'.

What is the nature of the thought 'I'?

Continually changing, non fixed, elusive.

What is it that knows there is no self?

This appears to be an unanswerable question.

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Neither. Thoughts arise.

Is no-self an experience? If so, what 'has' it?[/quote
No. Any awareness is experience within an infinite world.


Hum, hum, ?



Best wishes,

Carolyn

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

I

In DE is a 'self' or 'me' found, anywhere in experience?

In this moment 'I' exist as a combination of my current (and to some extent) my past experiences.
This is continually changing. I can't locate it but there is an awareness of 'me searching'.

Let's take a look at this now.

This 'self' that 'exists'. Is it anything more or less than the thought or the idea of a.'self'? When you say 'I' exist, do you mean as a 'real' seperate entity that is 'in control' of events? Or do you mean as an illusion that seems real in thought but that you understand to be just imagined?

If 'the past' has no reality other than as a series of thoughts or concepts occuring in the present, how can 'past experiences' be an 'I' now? Do you remember, we discussed the nature of thoughts and of how they can create the illusion of a reality?



Best wishes,

Jonathan

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello Jonathan,

This 'self' that 'exists'. Is it anything more or less than the thought or the idea of a.'self'? When you say 'I' exist, do you mean as a 'real' seperate entity that is 'in control' of events?

No

Or do you mean as an illusion that seems real in thought but that you understand to be just imagined?

it seems real in thought but is not real, arising out of conditions. Is it imagined? Because then I would be the imagined which is unknown.

If 'the past' has no reality other than as a series of thoughts or concepts occuring in the present, how can 'past experiences' be an 'I' now?

What I was trying to convey was that past experiences only exist in the way that they affect present conditions.

Do you remember, we discussed the nature of thoughts and of how they can create the illusion of a reality?

yes. Was I being inconsistent with that notion?



Best wishes,

Jonathan[/quote]

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

Forgive me if I seem to have fired an endless succession of questions at you. I was keen to be quite sure of what your understanding is about what we have been discussing.

We have come to a stage where it would be very useful if you could answer six quite specific questions? How you answer may or may not generate further conversation or possible questions.

I will split the questions into two lots of three questions. Are you ready?



Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello Jonathan,
Yes
Carolyn

[JonathanR]

Ok Carolyn,

Here are the first three questions. Though they may echo some of my previous questions plrase answer them as if you were explaining to someone who had never heard of The Gate.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if any) between 'now' and compared with before you started this dialogue? Maybe give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a moment, perhaps something I said or something that you looked into that that pushed you over, made you look and realise?



Regards,

Jonathan.

[Carolyn Drake]

Hello Jonathan,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
We perceive life, the world, the universe as being composed of discrete objects, each with a separate identity, with definable boundaries and independent properties. This is an illusion which can be considered to be helpful in ‘making sense’ of the large amount of information arriving in our sense organs at any one time.
In reality these ‘objects’ are all interconnected, boundary less, interdependent, constantly changing over time and space.
The perception of ’self’ is an illusion in this way. There is no entity of ‘me’, separate from others and things, with boundaries and independent properties. Physical sensations, thoughts and emotions arise from this continual flux, existing in the moment and only in the moment.
So no, there is no separate entity of ‘me’, only interconnected arising.


2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if any) between 'now' and compared with before you started this dialogue? Maybe give a report from the past few days.
It’s a relief. Honing down of ideas and concepts and providing a specific vocabulary have brought into clearer focus this sensation of continual change and interconnectiveness. There is a relaxation into the moment and an increased openness to whatever is occurring. An incredibly increased sensitivity to changing sensations, tiny and large.


3) Was there a moment, perhaps something I said or something that you looked into that that pushed you over, made you look and realize.

Nothing identifiable, just gradual increase in awareness. Probably only the tip of the iceberg but no way of knowing.



How tricky to convey experiences in words,
Best wishes
Carolyn

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

Thanks for answering the first three questions, Here are the second three. Once you have answered these we can take a look at what you have written.


4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?



Best wishes,


Jonathan.

[Carolyn Drake]

Good morning

Well, your questions take me a long way from direct experience but I've tried to bring it back!


4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I think I did this in my answer to 1)
I suppose it starts expressing itself during the first years of life. At birth a newborn is entirely dependent on the environment. Gradually they learn they can move independently, influence the world by actions, they become an agent in their own world. The concept of ‘self’ then becomes very useful in interactions with the world. It is a tool around which my identity can develop, it allows me to focus on my needs as opposed to those of others. From it I have the impression of free choice and a sense of determinism.
Without this ‘illusion’ or ‘cognitive construct’, ‘I’ am revealed as a tiny part of a continually changing flux of a world, with things that may have happened in the past existing only in the nature of their influence on current conditions.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Choices appear to be being made by 'me'. 'My foot' appears to move 'as a result of the choice'. Many choices, many movements from which the presence of a controlling entity is imagined and assumed.
Your words but I can’t describe it better. This made a big impression on my understanding.
So, ‘I’ appear to make decisions, but without the concept of ‘I’ there is no controller just a flow of interaction forces having varying influences on other ‘perceived entities’ and ‘they’ having influences on ‘me’.

What am I responsible for? I’ve sat with this one….not sure I can answer it. ……. Perception of choice, perception of control, …. Perception of free will…… all ‘imagined’ or ‘cognitive constructs’ …..
Nothing to be responsible for if I had fully integrated this ‘understanding’ fully into my life, body, mind, emotions.
But I haven’t. so perhaps at the present time while this unfolds ‘I’ have the intention (if not responsibility) in resting in the present moment, awareness of the here and now, awareness of the vastness, timeless, minisculeness, of body sensations, thoughts as they arise and fall and associated emotional reactions.
Awareness.
Here
Now.



carolyn

[JonathanR]

Hello Carolyn,

Well, your questions take me a long way from direct experience but I've tried to bring it back!

What do you mean, Carolyn?

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I suppose it starts expressing itself during the first years of life. At birth a newborn is entirely dependent on the environment. Gradually they learn they can move independently, influence the world by actions, they become an agent in their own world. The concept of ‘self’ then becomes very useful in interactions with the world. It is a tool around which my identity can develop, it allows me to focus on my needs as opposed to those of others. From it I have the impression of free choice and a sense of determinism.
Without this ‘illusion’ or ‘cognitive construct’, ‘I’ am revealed as a tiny part of a continually changing flux of a world, with things that may have happened in the past existing only in the nature of their influence on current conditions.

Do you not think that the assumption of a self may also lie at the root of great problems, for exampe, greed, hatred, unnecessary disputes, war and so on?

You are trying to describe how an illusory self works and in many ways have done a good job but your wording makes me want to ask:

Since no self exists who ( or what) becomes 'very useful'... and to whom (or what)?

Is the illusion of 'I' a tool? If so, who wields it? What would an entity that 'does' this be needing with an extra self?

From it I have the impression of free choice

.. you are speaking here as if there is a 'you' that 'has an illusory self' but how is that possible? How can there be an I 'behind' the illusion of I from which 'I have the illusion of free choice'?

Forgive my brevity. But think about the above and respond when you are ready.

Jonathan.

[Carolyn Drake]

hello Jonathan,

Well, your questions take me a long way from direct experience but I've tried to bring it back!

What do you mean, Carolyn?

You asked me to explain something to someone who does not know about this. I automatically went into 'scientist' and 'teacher' mode because I find that it helps to clarify my thoughts. It was my first experience of you requesting this,.... or perhaps it is only my interpretation. This 'other' DE mode of functioning has distinct differences. I was aware of shifting from one to the other.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Do you not think that the assumption of a self may also lie at the root of great problems, for exampe, greed, hatred, unnecessary disputes, war and so on?

Yes clearly. The 'self' protects itself by definition however it can. Without this assumption, and living in the flow of continual change, dissolves the need for 'protection' and thus greed, hate etc.

You are trying to describe how an illusory self works and in many ways have done a good job but your wording makes me want to ask:

Since no self exists who ( or what) becomes 'very useful'... and to whom (or what)?

Nothing is 'useful' to anything. I suppose I was talking in Darwinian terms of natural selection and survival. A mechanism that is effective up to a point in some situations. A certain level of explanation.

Is the illusion of 'I' a tool? If so, who wields it? What would an entity that 'does' this be needing with an extra self?

From it I have the impression of free choice

.. you are speaking here as if there is a 'you' that 'has an illusory self' but how is that possible? How can there be an I 'behind' the illusion of I from which 'I have the illusion of free choice'?

Yes I see and understand your point. This seems an essential point. Its like a mirror reflecting a mirror reflecting a mirror........ with no end. I can't explain it but the experience is overwhelming.

Over the last few days I have lost count of the number of people asking what has changed..... sitting in a chair in a wood, surrounded by friends....... being.... in the moment ... at peace but aware of minute sensations and reactions and thoughts and patterns.... just being.

Indescribable, unexplainable.

Thank you
Carolyn