The Gate

Oops that should have been staying in touch!

Hi!

I'm back... Good morning, good afternoon.

Which is closer to reality in your experience? Thoughts? Or direct experience through the senses? Which is more trustworthy?

That's very good Hare. I love The way you come back to me with questions that lead me back to re-visiting what I have written. I love this gentle encouragement, through questioning, to go back to what I have said to re-evaluate o re-examine its implications, or to look into it with different eyes, as it were.

What is good here is to look at the doubts as thoughts, not as facts. There is a thought doubting experience, well, it is a passing thought, and many thoughts like that are likely to emerge; that doesn't change the fact that experience is something different altogether. Now it even seems a bit silly, how on earth a thought can say that I'm not experiencing what I'm experiencing? (Here I'm using the I because I at the moment I have no alternative to refer to the experience or may be have little time to look for an alternative way to express myself...)

I feel am about to understand something... Like the way virtual realities are created. There is an experience and then the mind comes up saying, "oh no, it wasn't like that, it is like this", and in the blink of an eye it changes the direct experience which is not created, into something created... and what seems silly is that I even entertain the possibility that the mind is "right".

Agh! I have a sense that I'm about to understand how the mind creates the world and the self ... but it is still a bit elusive and have a sense that I should not go about chasing understanding.... And that I should not stop looking, seeking or exploring.

Direct experience is more trustworthy than thoughts... That's my direct answer to your direct question.

Is the body a self? Is there a self 'in' the body? If so, where? Is there a self 'outside' the body?

Forgive me if to understand your questions, sometimes I have to ask another question, mainly directed to myself, and this time the question is: Is Hare directing me to explore whether there is a "me" here and there is a "world" out there? And to facilitate that exploration (the question came up, are you a man or a woman, but please don't answer it!) is offering me a simple exercise? Really, the exercise seems to be always the same: "just look closely", use all your experiences to question wether there is a self to be found, a self that appears as a doer, as a thinker, as a feeler, and so on and so for. Also, there is this encouragement to question what hasn't being questioned before; to look in a way that hasn't been used before...

Is there a Self? Where is it? A self as an entity? A Self as a something tangible? A Self located somewhere masterminding the life I'm living? The answer is... No, it doesn't feel that way.

To help explore 'the body' - close your eyes and tune in to the sensations where 'your' body' touches what is 'not your body' (buttocks on the chair or whatever). Can you find any boundary between the two?

This exploration is aimed at taking the above suggested exploration further? Is there a me in-here? Is there a world out-there?

The first answer is: it appears to be so. A closer examination reveals that, perhaps no. The closer I look and tune into this contact, I feel what I can only name as inter-penetration (does that word exists in the English language)...

I felt this inter-penetration during the physio session I told you about... At times it felt as if my therapist's hands where inside the body, as if there was no distinction between her hands and the part of the body they were touching. I too had a similar experience the night before making love... My lover's body felt like inside me ... Not like a fusion, but more like an inter-penetration. Also, I'm not making reference to the sexual organs, but rather to the whole body. In both occasions I had this feeling of undivided worlds as it were.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

:) Akita

Good afternoon, good evening Akita!

What is good here is to look at the doubts as thoughts, not as facts. There is a thought doubting experience, well, it is a passing thought, and many thoughts like that are likely to emerge; that doesn't change the fact that experience is something different altogether. Now it even seems a bit silly, how on earth a thought can say that I'm not experiencing what I'm experiencing? (Here I'm using the I because I at the moment I have no alternative to refer to the experience or may be have little time to look for an alternative way to express myself...)

Yes! Spot on. Can a thought actually 'do' anything? Ever?

'I' is a convenience of language - an operational concept. It can be useful sometimes as 'method' to write without using personal pronouns...but isn't necessary. So long as we see it for what it is - a construct, behind which there is no 'entity' or substance whatever.

I feel am about to understand something... Like the way virtual realities are created. There is an experience and then the mind comes up saying, "oh no, it wasn't like that, it is like this", and in the blink of an eye it changes the direct experience which is not created, into something created... and what seems silly is that I even entertain the possibility that the mind is "right".
Agh! I have a sense that I'm about to understand how the mind creates the world and the self ... but it is still a bit elusive and have a sense that I should not go about chasing understanding.... And that I should not stop looking, seeking or exploring.
Direct experience is more trustworthy than thoughts... That's my direct answer to your direct question.

All good. Believing that the mind is 'right' truly is silly. Sometimes tragic. But also, funny! ;-D

Yes, mind creates 'thought coverings', including the illusion of self.

Really, the exercise seems to be always the same: "just look closely", use all your experiences to question wether there is a self to be found, a self that appears as a doer, as a thinker, as a feeler, and so on and so for. Also, there is this encouragement to question what hasn't being questioned before; to look in a way that hasn't been used before...

Yup!

Let's explore the experience of interpenetration - or whatever (words never quite do it!) further.

carry out the following experiment.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

A deep bow,
Hare

Hi Akita!

How's it going? (Whatever 'it' is!)

:-) H

Good morning/afternoon

Hi Hare... sorry for the delay ... Noticing that I'm not keeping up with my commitment to write at least once a day...

I apologise for that ... Let me carry on exploring DE

Now point where others see your face.

I did it several times and in different ways ... Using different objects and moving from them to my face, sometimes slowly and sometimes a bit faster.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

No, I don't see my face. I don't see any colour or shape or movement whatsoever.

What do you find?

Just the experience or attention directed inwards and a peripheral view of different objects in this room.

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

The experience of bringing the attention inwards, towards my face, seems a bit stronger, otherwise so far I don't notice a huge difference. It seems to me as perceiving in different ways... It is just the experience of perceiving, it doesn't matter whether I'm directing the attention outwards or inwards.

It seems that perceiving through the eye is just perceiving through the eye ... The difference is the movement outward or inwards...

Here I have to say that I'm just focusing on looking at... When I direct the looking towards my face, I can also feel sensations more clearly... When looking outwards the sensations seem to fade a bit... just a bit...

At the moment I can't say anything else ... But that I carried out the experiment for about one hour... At first the attention was a bit unstable, but as time passed I could feel it more stabilised, and that affected the experience of the eye-perception, it became clearer...


Bye for now Hare

Akita -

Hi Akita,

Yes do try to keep to once a day if you can - it works best. Sometimes there can even be a quick back-and-forth more than once a day, if it works out - but no pressure on that.

Thanks for reporting back on your experience, all good.

Please try this and let me know how you get on.

Write a fairly brief paragraph describing yourself: facts about when and where you were born, whether you are a man or woman, something about your early life, education, whatever. (Write that here, or not, as preferred.)

Now, look to see if any of those 'facts' can be found or verified in DE, now. What's there? Tell me your findings.

Enjoy!

:-) H

Hi Hare, good morning.


I'm a woman, I was born in the north of Mexico, near the American border. I am my mother's second child and my father's fourth. I'm a sister to four men and half-sister to one man. I'm also sister to three women. I was a precocious child, learnt to read and write at home, with my mother, when I was only five, because of that, I was accepted in primary school at that age. I was top of my class. My youngest sister died when I was nine and went to secondary school as it turned 11. I moved to Mexico City aged 17 and studied psychology. Started working as a research assistant aged 21 and went on to a postgrad school in Mexico and abroad. I was awarded three postgrads titles. I lived abroad for fifteen years and been back in Mexico for over five.

Not sure if what I wrote describes me. I wrote facts about my life, that in a way are true. But only "woman" , "child", "precocious child" and "sister" attempts to describe me. Neither of them can be found or verified in DE, particularly "woman" and "sister". In a way I can't verify other things in DE mainly because it is in the past.

Not sure whether I addressed the question properly.

By for now.

Regards

Akita




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Hi Akita,

Thanks for your response.

Let's investigate the 'story of Akita' further:

I was awarded three postgrads titles.

Who was awarded three postgrad titles?

I wrote facts about my life, that in a way are true.

Who wrote facts?
In what way are they 'true'? Where does this 'truth' reside? In thought, memory and story? Are thoughts, memories and stories true? Look.

Is there anything at all in this description that can be found or verified in DE? Be scrupulous.

But only "woman" , "child", "precocious child" and "sister" attempts to describe me. Neither of them can be found or verified in DE, particularly "woman" and "sister".

Are you saying that "child" or "precocious child" can, perhaps, be found in DE?

I can't verify other things in DE mainly because it is in the past.

Does the past exist? If so, where is it? Look in DE and report back.

Until later :-)
Hare

Am interested to hear your investigations?
:-)

Hi good morning...

It is busy this side of the world! I'm sorry, a beloved ant's sudden death kept me this time away from the computer.

Akita


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For some reason i can't log in through the gate, therefore I will continue using tapatalk ....


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"Who was awarded three postgrad titles?"

The first answer that comes to mind is: "me", Akita. Then who is Akita? Memories come back from three different times in my life, and the next answer that comes to mind is: honestly, I don't know.

"Who wrote the facts? In what way are they true? Where does this 'truth' reside? In thought, memory and story? Are thoughts, memory and stories true? Look..... Is there anything at all in this description that can be found or verified in DE? Be scrupulous."

The person called Akita wrote a few words describing things that happened once upon a time. Things that exist no more. Memories, thoughts and stories are just that, can't be verified by DE.

"Are you saying that "child" or "precocious child" can, perhaps be found in DE."

No, am not saying it. Didn't include "child" or "precocious child" because I can't relate to that at all. It was easier to explore "woman" or "sister" in DE, because I can see how I can identify myself as such, but not as a child or precocious child.

"Does the last exist? If so, where is it?"

No, it doesn't exists. I'm clear about that, kind of profoundly certain of that! What emerges, from time to time, are thoughts or memories of something I think existed once upon ā time. And who knows if it really did. Thoughts are not reality and of course not even DE.

Kind regards...

Akita



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Do you know how to contact the LU page's administrator? It didn't recognise "me" After a few attempts with my email and username. Now it is asking for a new registration.


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Hi Akita,

Commiserations on the loss of your aunt. Strangely, my aunt also died yesterday at 95. I think she was ready to go, but there is still loss.

I have asked for help from admin, hopefully someone will be able to to sort you out. Let me know if you still have a problem. They are wonderfully efficient and responsive in my experience.

Memories, thoughts and stories are just that, can't be verified by DE.

Yes!

Later you say

Thoughts are not reality and of course not even DE

Yes!

Does 'Akita' exist anywhere other than in memories, thoughts and stories? Look.

If the answer that comes is 'yes', or 'maybe', then who or what is 'Akita'?


What comes up in response to this question?:

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?


With love,

Hare

Have heard back from Bill at admin, here's his reply:

"I just tested her permisssions and they are fine
will email her a new password
Lets see if that works.
her username is Akita1508 (nice and easy)"

Hope this helps, let me know how it goes,
x H