The Gate

Hello again Nona,
Just a quick response to your last reply before I respond to the others, please. Just so I am clear.

Thought invariably arises; and it is already accepted on the deepest, most fundamental level, or it wouldn't have shown up!
Anything that shows up in awareness has already been accepted. Yet you judge it, label it "good" or "bad", and then either surrender to it or resist it as if you had any control over it! Hahaha! And it's already been accepted! But this is what we do! How funny is that??!

Does that mean the reality of typing happening now, looking at screen now and anything else that is arising in this moment is final ? Then these arisings must be coming up in awareness from somewhere. What condition or source is the impetus for its arising?

Hi Nona,
More replies are coming. I am in the process of learning how to cut and paste so I can take more time with my responses. Be back soon. Thanks for your patience.

Satya

Hello Again, Nona

My dear guide, unfortunately, I was signed off again, even while attempting the cut and paste with quote button. I guess I'm still a bit slow. No problem. I'm going to just cut and paste the whole conversation. I will quote your question and responses so as to differentiate between yours and mine. Thankfully, I still have them saved in Microsoft Word.



"Do you have any control over when thought shows up? Over which thoughts show up? The mechanics here are that thinking happens, just like every other event in Life. It's not something you get to decide about."

There is no control over when thoughts appear in awareness. As you say, thinking happens. So, any ideas such as thoughts and events arising due to some kind of karmic residue or momentum just don’t apply here?


"Liberatio'n is not some emotionless State! ALL the range of human emotions continue to show up! That's what it means to be human!
Liberation is SEEing that emotions happen to no one, that emotions have no control over happiness or peace"

I’m having a little problem with that one. That we continue our humanness in the same way. Human being sounds like a separate being. Is a human being just another thought in the mind? "Emotions have no control over our happiness and peace?"
Hey would this response from one your earlier posts answer my question here ?

you engage in daily life just as you always have done — without a self, without possession, without control. Just the same as before — fully functional! Only when you say or write "I, me, my", you see clearly that these are merely an aid to communication, labels that point to self-referential thoughts, rather than an indication that reality is in a one-to-one correspondence with language!
We are messy with our language, yet we imagine that language is a truth; but it's only a story. Anything that can be said or written, including this, is ultimately a story

"EVERYthing you experience is just an arising. I invite you to check it in direct experience!"

This I know for sure. Sounds, emotions, thoughts, sensations etc. All arising out of nothing.

"So tell me what Life would be like without a self in control. How would it be different from what it is now? What could you not do then that you do now"

Everything would go on as usual without the the thought of “I”.



"You have lived xx years planning, organising, setting goals. And all that time there was no separate self doing all of that; it all simply happened as part of the flow of Life. Why do you imagine that now will be any different?"

It’s the old conditioned belief that an “I” needs to be at the center of everything, controlling what happens. Even though I know there is no “I” thoughts continue, even so-called negative emotions arise as sensations. The story is seen. Whether I trust this or not, life is just happening !

"It's not unusual. So LOOK with all your might! Leave no stone unturned!! Check everywhere! Is there any place a separate self/controller/director that runs "your" life could be hiding?"

No need to look further. Words really can’t express what is seen.
Words will not ever, ever express THIS.

This is something I've always known, and at the same time it appears to be new! Something I've been waiting for to return, but had never left in the first place. This is truly outside of time.

With love and appreciation, Nona

Hi Satya,

Does that mean the reality of typing happening now, looking at screen now and anything else that is arising in this moment is final ?

I don't know what you mean by "final". Do you mean "what is happening cannot be altered"? If so, yes. It is not possible to undo the present moment. Even the desire to undo what is happening is part of what is happening.

Then these arisings must be coming up in awareness from somewhere.

Where, outside of awareness, could these arisings be "coming from"???? Is there another, a second, awareness, perhaps over to the left of this one? In your experience, is there ever more than one awareness? If there is, how is it even possible for you to be aware of it?

Awareness is the immeasurably large environment in which arisings occur; it encompasses ALL arisings, including thoughts about some "other" place where arisings are imagined to be coming from.
Really, you are overthinking all this!! Again!
The determination to understand it will never bring peace. It cannot — it's mind's way of trying to stay "in control". But mind is not in control. At all. Check it! Where is the proof that mind is in control other than a thought that says so?
Try this.
Sit quietly. "Decide" to rise and touch the wall, yet continue to sit quietly. Mind says, "rise and touch the wall." And you remain sitting quietly.
Mind says many many things. It's almost impossible to shut it up. But does what mind says have a one-to-one correspondence with reality? In your direct experience?
Check it!
Here mind says, "go make a cup of tea." Yet here I sit at the computer! Mind doesn't say "set the fingers to typing", yet fingers are moving all the same!
Mind is a story-teller. Its job is to make some kind of sense of experience. But it's Mind that decides what counts as sense and what does not!! Talk about circular thinking!

This is why we shift focus to Direct Experience: in sensation-prior-to-thought there is no story at all to distract us from LOOKing.
The more you distract you with mental conundrums, the less you will SEE.
It seems we humans can do one or the other: focus on direct experience, OR think. But not both.

any ideas such as thoughts and events arising due to some kind of karmic residue or momentum just don’t apply here?

Those ideas are Stories. Every explanation is a story, even the ones based in science. In direct experience there is sensation but no story. Story invariably comes after sensation and it is attached to sensation via a mental process.
Sit quietly and notice sensations. There appears to be a rhythmic sensation I label "breathing". In direct experience, is there a cause or an effect of breathing that is not a Story? Mind tells us, "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" (after this, therefore because of this), yet can you find a first cause in direct experience? Shift focus to DE and LOOK!! Is there, in DE, any such item as a cause or an effect? At all? Check it, don't just think about it!

We Thinkers get our mental knickers in a knot trying to sort something out that A) doesn't need sorting, and B) cannot be resolved with the same mind that creates it!! Where is the Story? It certainly is not in Direct Experience!

"Liberatio'n is not some emotionless State! ALL the range of human emotions continue to show up! That's what it means to be human!
Liberation is SEEing that emotions happen to no one, that emotions have no control over happiness or peace"

I’m having a little problem with that one. That we continue our humanness in the same way.

Yes, I'm not surprised. So CHECK it! What expectation do you have of what Liberation would be like? How is it supposed to show up?
Satya, you have never had a self or been a self. Never. There is no such thing as a self; it is only a label for a bunch of interdependent thoughts! So look at your memories of xx years of Life — were you ever not-human without a self? Ever?

Is a human being just another thought in the mind?

Yes, of course. ALL labels are thoughts.

Hey would this response from one your earlier posts answer my question here ?

nonaparry wrote:
you engage in daily life just as you always have done — without a self, without possession, without control. Just the same as before — fully functional! Only when you say or write "I, me, my", you see clearly that these are merely an aid to communication, labels that point to self-referential thoughts, rather than an indication that reality is in a one-to-one correspondence with language!
We are messy with our language, yet we imagine that language is a truth; but it's only a story. Anything that can be said or written, including this, is ultimately a story

If that answers your question, then yes!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth."

"EVERYthing you experience is just an arising. I invite you to check it in direct experience!"

This I know for sure. Sounds, emotions, thoughts, sensations etc. All arising out of nothing.

Yet you ask where arisings come from, as if there were any place outside of awareness that they could "come from".

"So tell me what Life would be like without a self in control. How would it be different from what it is now? What could you not do then that you do now"

Everything would go on as usual without the the thought of “I”.

Oh, really?? Is there never a thought of "I" at present? Has mind stopped attaching an "I did it" to events? Really?
I doubt it.
There is no control over thoughts. Not over thoughts of pink elephants and not over thoughts of "I". If you are waiting for thoughts of "I" to never show up, you could wait a lifetime.
SEEing there is no self in reality does not stop thoughts of "I" from arising. Nothing stops a thought from arising; thoughts arise or not. Check it!
I invite you to try to stop your next thought. Go ahead. Don't let that bad boy surface.
Whoops! It's okay, try again.
And again.
Can you choose which thoughts arise? At all? Don't believe me; TEST it!! Discover your own truth.

Did you imagine that once "I" is seen through, "I" thoughts would cease? Thoughts, being mediated by language, continue to refer to "I" — it's part of the language! Unless you are a member of one of two aboriginal tribes whose language does not contain pronouns at all, you will continue to have "I" thoughts.
Do you have other expectations of what Liberation looks like? Let's get any and all of them onto the table and deconstruct them!! Eternal bliss, a State of unperturbable peace, the cessation of the use of pronouns?

No need to look further. Words really can’t express what is seen.
Words will not ever, ever express THIS.

No; they cannot. Language has no correspondence with Reality. Language is always a story.

This is something I've always known, and at the same time it appears to be new! Something I've been waiting for to return, but had never left in the first place. This is truly outside of time.

Can you say with complete honesty that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

love
Nona

Hello Nona,,
Sorry for the delay. I am taking some time to absorb our last conversation. Hopefully I am not seeking confirmation beyond what I've already seen. I will be in touch soon.
Thanks Nona
Satya

Good morning Nona,
Sorry about the extended time away from posting. I felt an impulse to try to gain some clarity on what was seen. I can't say if I've actually gotten any clearer, but I can say with honesty that I have seen through the illusion of a separate self.I have stopped looking for how this all works or some kind of final confirmation. That keeps me in never-ending-story mode. Thoughts arise, emotions arise, sounds, all of it. Sometimes peaceful, sometimes not, room here for it all!
Nona, with palms together, I thank you. This is great work you do here. With deep gratitude and appreciation, from my heart.
I noticed you have email. If it is okay, I would like to keep in touch. I would love to know more about you. I sense there is much inspiration there.

Satya

Satya, LU runs a number of groups that you might enjoy being part of. In the meantime, there are a few more questions I'd like you to answer to see if there is anything more we should look at before we bring our inquiry to completion.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

With much love,
Nona

Hello Nona,
Really happy to be with you again. I've been reading our last thread and feel ready to answer the questions posed about my seeing through.
Unless you feel otherwise I will respond to the inquiry. If so I will take a little time and post my responses.

Satya

Hi Satya,

That's fine! Go ahead and answer the questions. Let me know if there is anything you are not clear on.

love
Nona

Satya? Are you still with me?

love
Nona

Hello Nona,
Yes, I am still with you. However, I am finding it difficult to find the right words. I know what it is as a lived experience to stand as a flow of change, but the 2nd question to explain.
To the question 1) No, there is no separate self or "I". Not in any way, shape, or form. Not now or in any future.

Question 2.) I will try to put words to my understanding. The illusion of separate self is mind made and is carried forward through the use of language. To say that this began at birth would be just another mind made story, but one that would seem to explain t he origin of the story. So what is difficult is trying to make a linear time based story. The story of how we develop belief in thought over time from the adults in our lives is just a story. Everything is raw sensory experience that appears to arise as a flow of change in the present. Mind, labels this sensory phenomena with meaning and we're off to the races, as s they say. Maybe you can help me with this. This is tough. Maybe I need to dissect the question to come up wit b a more succinct answer.

Question 3.) There is a sense of relief to know that there really is no - self beyond what is created with our thoughts. Things appear to go on as usual, but without giving so much weight to a personal, concrete, point of view.
4.) What pushed me over, I think, was the letting go of the notion that some big event had to happen to signal my seeing through. I was not really looking, I was "waiting" for something to happen. I'm not doing that now.
5.) Nothing here that could do any of that.
6.) Nothing to add.

Dear Satya,

Thank you for your answers.

For Q5, please answer the question and give examples. Although "there is no one here", events happen! How do they happen? Is there any control? Any responsibility?
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

love,
Nona

Dear Nona,
Thanks for pointing out Q5.
Nothing is decided, intended, chosen, or controlled by a "me." Life experiences arise in awareness as sensation and thought. Mind applies concepts and meaning to all flow of arisings. An example would be the story of being human and the many branches of stories that grow from that one story. Actually, the story of being human seems to be an arising of thoughts and sensations, an interplay between the two. Just appearances in awareness that when filtered through the mind are designated a subject/object reality.

Thank you, Satya. I will ask the other guides whether they have further questions for you.

love
Nona