Looking for a guide!

[freee]

i hope that you remembered to attach a laugh to that experience.

Didn't occur to me but yes, good way to reinforce the new habit.

"Ho-hum, it happened again..." - what do you say to that ?

I had (have) sense that that's how it's going to be. Looking forward to more and more of it (thought story) :)

BTW, at times, I've noticed a tendency (wiring) in me to get disturbed (with thought stories) if I think someone is upset with me (angry etc.). Of course, my thought stories (insecurity) turned out to be true at times.
Guess all I need to do is when something like this happens, label them as "thought stories", "from wirings", etc. and laugh. That might help me to not invest in the thought stories and eventually re-wire right?

Similarly, at times when I feel tired (physically), the wiring in me is to have a lot of thought stories about how my hubby is not helping out (he doesn't help much but still I don't want to suffer from thought stories about it) etc. It happened recently. At the beginning, I was able to label them and fake laughing but soon, I got sucked into them. There were thought stories about my disappointments with him over the past many years. There was another thought story that I was thinking about these to help out a friend.
(Remember in my last mail I had mentioned that I was helping out a friend with her relationship problems and discussed some incidents from my own marriage?)
With that thought, I told myself that it's OK to go on with these thought stories as they are for analysis (and stopped labeling & laughing). But at the end, I lost sleep and got irritable/ disrespectful/ etc. In that state, I tend to have charged emotions at the drop of a hat. That leads to (more?) distorted thinking and more charged emotions and arguments.
Guess the way to come out of this is also to label and laugh and eventually get better at it. Any other (specific) suggestions?

[vinceschubert]

I've noticed a tendency (wiring) in me to get disturbed (with thought stories) if I think someone is upset with me (angry etc.).

Ha yes, they have a thought story about you and you have a thought story about their thought story and then get upset about it. Pretty funny, but serious, aye ? Well no. It's not serious. Certainly the negative emotion seems serious, but it is just another passing experience. Because of it's unpleasantness we give it gravitas, but does it really warrant any more importance than a pleasant experience ?

You are on target with the re-wiring.
Even though it was days ago when you had that experience, i want you to recall it and add the laugh. It doesn't matter how long after you realize that you didn't laugh. Recall the incident and laugh. This will increase the speed of the re-wiring.

at times when I feel tired

Of course, when you are feeling tired, the negative emotions erupt easier. It is also when you are tired that you need more help, so there's a compounding effect here. See it as a greater opportunity to practice the laugh (covertly if necessary) and to accelerate the new brain connections and pathways.

Guess the way to come out of this is also to label and laugh and eventually get better at it.

Good guess.
But it wasn't a guess. You knew it. ...and there is probably a story lurking in the background that you wish it would hurry up so that you don't have to suffer anymore. Well, suffering is probably more responsible for change, than anything else. Can suffering be anything more than unpleasantness if it is welcomed ?
Isn't the suffering component all to do with the story that it could be different ?

love

vince

[freee]

Even though it was days ago when you had that experience, i want you to recall it and add the laugh.

I recalled a few and laughed at each. I was surprised that the laughing lightened the seriousness of those thought stories even though I recalled them as mere thought stories! I wonder if I'm imagined the lightness!

But it wasn't a guess. You knew it. ...and there is probably a story lurking in the background that you wish it would hurry up so that you don't have to suffer anymore. Well, suffering is probably more responsible for change, than anything else. Can suffering be anything more than unpleasantness if it is welcomed ?
Isn't the suffering component all to do with the story that it could be different ?

Yes, it wasn't a guess, it was a realization.
The story about suffering wasn't lurking, I was quite aware of it. The story was almost exactly as you have written it! I agree with what you say about accepting suffering just as I accept happiness! Labeling thought stories might be one way to not invest in that thought story (that wishes for no suffering) and cause the needed re-wiring. For faster results, I need to label thought stories with more awareness, which will expedite the re-wiring which will help with labeling more, and so on, right? How much of labeling I'm able to do depends on my wirings right? OK, I see that there is no short-cut! :)

[vinceschubert]

So when i say "This IS IT !", what is your reaction.

love

vince

[freee]

So when i say "This IS IT !", what is your reaction.

That is all there is to it? I'm seeing what you wanted to show me (what I was seeking but not really knowing what it was)?!

BTW, since y'day, I've been seeing that this is a way of not getting affected (cause suffering to myself) by something not in my control! I can't thank you enough for this, especially the kindness I've felt in your guidance! I've been wanting to share this with the entire world! I think this should be taught in school as it can influence living so much! Each of my above sentences are thought stories of course and I'm smiling :)

[vinceschubert]

There is always more. Further..
Once the illusion of a separate self is SEEn through, it is just a beginning.
Think about it. Your whole life has been predicated on language that referred to concepts (I, Me, Mine, Self, etc) as if they were real.
This 're-education' will probably go on for the rest of your life-ing. Some people have said that it can take 10 years for people to settle into an enlightened skin.
But we haven't finished here yet.
When i said This is it, i wasn't (so much) referring to your 'state' of enlightenment. i was saying;
THIS is it.
This IS it.
This is IT.
THIS pointing to current experiencing.
IS The being-ness. The absolute IS-ness of what is appearing to Shobana, NOW.
IT The absolute EVERYTHING-ness of your experiencing and everything else (the Santa bag known as the Great Mystery)
This is IT, also refers to the absolute HERE-ness of EVERYthing. So, stop seeking and appreciate that ALL that you need NOW, is HERE, NOW. There is nothing missing. This is it !

love

vince

[freee]

But we haven't finished here yet.

When I replied to your "This IS IT", I had a thought about whether you meant the end here or not but didn't think more about it. The rest of what I said, I meant it either way. Seeing what you wanted me to see w.r.t. the current point.

What we discuss here, sinks in at different levels over time. It also manifests in different ways, I mean, I see it in different instances of life-ing. One such manifestation (realization) was that just like how Self is just a label, Vince is also just a label. Just like how life-ing (through me) happens according to my wirings (and the Mystery) at that moment, what's seemingly done by others also happen according to their wirings (and the Mystery) at that moment. After I saw life-ing this way, I didn't blame the other people for doing/ saying things that used to hurt me before LU. More importantly, I didn't get hurt. When I used to do mindfulness-based meditation, I used to be able to label thoughts as thoughts (and let go) somewhat but ever since my child and my need to work to support the family, I haven't been able to sit. With the LU way, I didn't create suffering for myself (though there were thoughts about consequences of their actions/ words). There have been thoughts questioning how deep the re-wiring is.
Still, I wish that everyone Sees this so that their suffering decreases. That thought leads to the thought that these are so useful that they should be taught in school.

THIS pointing to current experiencing.
IS The being-ness. The absolute IS-ness of what is appearing to Shobana, NOW.
IT The absolute EVERYTHING-ness of your experiencing and everything else (the Santa bag known as the Great Mystery). This is IT, also refers to the absolute HERE-ness of EVERYthing.

I'm not sure if you are summarizing or asking me to bring awareness to something. The 2nd and 3rd sentences are kinda vague. I suspect I'm seeing it intellectually more than experientially but I'm not entirely sure what I mean! Anyway, I'll try to bring awareness to what I see (experience) when this sinks in.

So, stop seeking and appreciate that ALL that you need NOW, is HERE, NOW. There is nothing missing. This is it !

This seems to be a big leap from what we have discussing. I've certainly heard this in buddhist circles but this is still an intellectual cliche for me! I'll move over this also given my recent realizations here..

Sincerely,
Shobana

[freee]

I'll move over this also given my recent realizations here..

Oops, that was supposed to be mull over this also..

[vinceschubert]

mull over this

Rather than mentally masticate it, just read it and drop it, read it and drop it. This allows the processing to happen 'cleaner'.
Ask 'yourself' this; How far in the future is your (mental) gaze ? Looking for the time when enlightenment comes ?
A great metaphor is the person searching their whole house looking for spectacles that they are already wearing.
THIS IS IT, points to the immediacy of IT-ing. Of IS-ness-ing. Of THIS-ness-ing.
There is nothing to find, but lots to discover about what is already found.
Look closely at the back of your left hand. Notice detail that you haven't noticed before. The texture of the skin. Any blemishes. The fine hair. What ever IS there. Don't think about it. Just LOOK. Really look.
It was (probably) there yesterday, but why wasn't it noticed ?

love

vince

[freee]

Ask 'yourself' this; How far in the future is your (mental) gaze ? Looking for the time when enlightenment comes ?

I didn't get into this for enlightenment or out of intellectual curiosity but rather to decrease suffering in everyday living. To avoid arguments to defend Self, especially in front of my child. I'm now beginning to look at the tendency to argue as opportunities for re-wiring and not wish so much that we didn't argue. Still, there is some concern how this is affecting my Child though I'm also realizing that we are all operating out of our wirings.

THIS IS IT, points to the immediacy of IT-ing. Of IS-ness-ing. Of THIS-ness-ing.
There is nothing to find, but lots to discover about what is already found.
Look closely at the back of your left hand. Notice detail that you haven't noticed before. The texture of the skin. Any blemishes. The fine hair. What ever IS there. Don't think about it. Just LOOK. Really look.
It was (probably) there yesterday, but why wasn't it noticed ?

I looked and there appeared to be no thoughts for just a second or two but even then, there seemed to be thinking about watching out for thoughts. In any case, yes, I saw details on the back on my hand that I don't remember when I saw last. I didn't notice them till I looked cause I wasn't paying attention to them. Even when I looked now, when there were thoughts, the real looking reduced.

I see what you mean, that it's here already and I only need to see it/ discover more about it but what are you referring to, if it's more than the illusion of Self?!!

[freee]

I'm also seeing somewhat that all that is real is what I'm physically experiencing and everything else (as far as I can see now) are thought stories. In that sense, I see that THIS (whatever is happening at the moment) is all there is (IS IT).

[vinceschubert]

I see what you mean, that it's here already and I only need to see it/ discover more about it but what are you referring to, if it's more than the illusion of Self?!!

You may have heard the phrase; "When the veil was lifted". Well the veil is the illusion (really a delusion) of a separate self. But it is more than that. When that veil is lifted, it lifts other veils as well.
Really we are talking about what is Real, and what is Thought stuff.
When you talk about SEEing other peoples (and your own) wiring, you can SEE how the very real reactions to the very UNreal stories that they have come to believe, happens.
Now to complicate matters, there are some very pleasant emotions that are generated by story and there are those that would be labeled Suffering.
THEY ARE THE SAME !
Does that mean that you won't feel good when watching a feel good movie, or hear a story, or see a puppy, etc ?
No. Simply because the re-wiring will concentrate on the 'negative' ones.
Will you be aware that the good ones are story generated ?
Yes. ..and they will be allowed.
Here (for vince) ALL emotions have intensified. ALL are allowed. Most are quickly recognized as the result of story. (some not, until later)
What we have here is (apparent) choice. There is release in allowing emotions to flow, but SEEing them as story generated, means that it is easy to 'drop' the reaction if it seems appropriate.
There is no longer the automatic living out of the story.

Shobana, why do you think i said "apparent choice" above ?

love

vince

[freee]

Really we are talking about what is Real, and what is Thought stuff.
When you talk about SEEing other peoples (and your own) wiring, you can SEE how the very real reactions to the very UNreal stories that they have come to believe, happens.
Now to complicate matters, there are some very pleasant emotions that are generated by story and there are those that would be labeled Suffering.
THEY ARE THE SAME !
Does that mean that you won't feel good when watching a feel good movie, or hear a story, or see a puppy, etc ?
No. Simply because the re-wiring will concentrate on the 'negative' ones.
Will you be aware that the good ones are story generated ?
Yes. ..and they will be allowed.

I see them. In fact, I had similar thought stories about re-wirings and pleasant emotions.

why do you think i said "apparent choice" above ?

Choice is an illusion caused by thought stories, just like Control. Happenings happen as consequences of wirings (in Me and Others) and Mystery.

[vinceschubert]

Shobana, give me a rant on each of these questions, as you currently see things please;

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

vince

[freee]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not a separate entity, ever. Self is just a label, an artifact of language, for ease of communication.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

I experience a separate Self when I use labels (eg., I'm sitting on a Chair) as well as when I get caught up (invested) in thought stories (of mine, others, and my thought stories about others' thought stories and so on), mostly to defend mySelf. The extent to which I get caught up depends on how deep the wirings/ habits in me are.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I can't recall how many times I was able to avoid getting caught up in thought stories (once or twice maybe). I do recall a couple of times when I snapped out of intense arguments by recognizing that me and the other person were caught up in our own thought stories and defending our Selves. It took me a few minutes into the arguments to realize this but before LU, we used to argue for as long as an hour or more. When I snapped out of the arguments, almost all of the strong negative emotions in me went away almost instantly while before this process, I have harbored them for hours, if not longer. When the emotions vanished, there was a lot of free-ing, liberation! I was so Happy that I wanted to tell Everyone about my discoveries here as it might help Them too.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the burdening feeling from having thoughts incessantly and uncontrollably and having charged-up emotions from investing in the thoughts. I could see that there was investment in thoughts that were mainly concerned with protecting my Self. That's what made me seek the illusion of Self.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

After starting with LU, I see that the brain decides/ happenings happen and thoughts catch up fast enough to create an impression that the thoughts (Self) decided/ chose. I now see that happenings happen, depending on the wirings (in Me and Others) and other factors attributed to Mystery. Raising arm when you asked me to was the eye-opener. I could also see your example of a golf player being able to influence rather than control their swings. Since then, I have been looking at people's (including Self's) actions as "happenings from their wirings and Mystery" though I haven't processed/ analyzed their (my) actions to See that they don't control/ choose.

6) Anything to add?

This IS IT, meaning that the direct (physical experience) is all that is real and thoughts (processing and labeling) are not real. But these unreal things cause the very real-like happiness and suffering which are just labels (again). To break out of the habit of (processing and) labeling experiences (by getting caught up in thought stories), re-wirings that happen with recognitions of thought stories will help. Laughing making sure to contract the stomach will release Oxytocin to compensate for the hormones released when stressed. It may take a while but meanwhile I only need to look at experiences as opportunities/ reminders for re-wiring (that will decrease suffering and also happiness though I don't mind happiness as much as I've been trying to avoid suffering).

My toddler has been interrupting me several times and so I'm going to submit my replies now though I haven't been able to proof-read them. If I have more thoughts, I'll post them in a separate reply.