Looking for some guidance

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Good to hear back from you and I look forward to the rest of your reply.
Try not to force it, but rather let the answers 'come to you'.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Great advise once again. Perfect.
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I shall answer the questions as "I do." That seemed to be the best way to explain it.

A) Your last two paragraphs there suggest no individual, no 'Robert', but just what is happening by itself. How do you feel about this?

My first sense was relief. Looking at 'Robert' right now there are movements of energy triggering thoughts. Everything arises and fades away.

More to follow.
Thanks for everything
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Feel fortunate to have anything here.

The mind will have lots of fun with 'others' and with the 'past': lots of labels there, as with the 'future'. But what actually comes up in the present that is not commentary? What emotions? Shame, guilt, pride, other stuff? What sensations? What is left with them when the stories are dropped? Stay with this a little longer if possible. See if you can find more.

I was really having some trouble here. I couldn't seem to feel anything. Then I remembered no holds barred and went a little mental. That seemed to give me an opening. Others - it's the just way it is so just deal with it. Nothing you can do about. Part of life, something you have to put up with. Bunch of liars cheats, idiots, morons etc. etc. This then generated all the feelings I had about myself that were mentioned in an earlier post. Not good enough, anger, disappointment, disillusioned, frustrating, the righteous indignation. These definitely don't have the same intensity as earlier. In fact they are more like just words. Having a hard time feeling anything right now - 'good or bad'.

What is left with them when the stories are dropped?

right now - just beings.

Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I had expected this sooner but I seemed to be resisting resistance.

So can this be applied to any other feelings and thoughts which come up (eg you mention anxieties about the present situation)? Is anything happening apart from the energy? Is it happening to anyone?

It is applied to everything. It is all there is. And nothing is or can happen apart from it. It is not happening to anyone because all 'anyone's ' are just thoughts of the mind.

D) OK, so can you now observe and tell me whether you can find anything at all - events, thoughts, choices, actions - that you decide, intend, choose or control in Life? Do you make anything happen? Have a scan through and see what you can find. Please give examples from your experience. Be as precise and detailed as you can.

No because that me is a mind constructed idea and anything happening in the mind is after the fact.
All events, thoughts, choices, actions are ideas that are therefore after the fact. Any deciding, intending, choosing or controlling would necessarily have to happen before all this.
All these things seem to be happening spontaneously.

Thanks
Robert

Extra observation on resistance.
It seems life is flowing yet something is resisting that flow. Is it the mind? Can the mind even resist or is the mind just a collection of thoughts? So then it would be a thought about resisting emotions and the flowing of energy based upon likes and dislikes. Which would then be happening in the story, in the mind. Therefore resistance is a thought, based upon fear - which is just the flow of energy.
It seems that the energy of life triggers emotions which trigger thoughts. Without the story/commentary the energy continues to flow 'dissolving' the meaning that held that thought/belief in place.

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Wow: just got all that, all three messages. For some reason LU did not send notification to my email before. So please bear with me if my reply takes a little longer this time: we'll see.

Oh, in the mean time just one thing to consider: in your hockey commentary, or other thought-type commentaries, is this ever an impartial, fine-with-whatever-happens kind of commentary, or does it seem to favour a certain outcome, one 'individual' or the 'other' etc? So, do thoughts seem to suggest a certain point of view or preference or identification?

Cheers for now.

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

So please bear with me if my reply takes a little longer this time: we'll see.

Nice :-)

Oh, in the mean time just one thing to consider: in your hockey commentary, or other thought-type commentaries, is this ever an impartial, fine-with-whatever-happens kind of commentary, or does it seem to favour a certain outcome, one 'individual' or the 'other' etc? So, do thoughts seem to suggest a certain point of view or preference or identification?

I am trying to find an instance where it is truly impartial but it seems to be the very nature of commentary. Based upon likes and dislikes. Even indifference has the opinion of indifference which creates its own commentary. Labeling in itself seems to have little or no preference but the very label carries its own commentary. It seems it would have to be labeled 'just as it is' to be free from commentary.
Impartiality seems to come from the observance of the thoughts not the thoughts themselves.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for all your responses, and again the frankness with which you write.

1)

Everything arises and fades away.

This is an often heard phrase in the 'spiritual' teachings world. When you say this, what does it mean to you?

2)You write...

What is left with them when the stories are dropped?

right now - just beings.

then...

It is not happening to anyone because all 'anyone's ' are just thoughts of the mind.

So when happening to 'you' this is just a thought of the mind, but the 'others' are actual beings? Please have another look at this, and see which feels more right? Spend some more time over it.

3)

OK, so can you now observe and tell me whether you can find anything at all - events, thoughts, choices, actions - that you decide, intend, choose or control in Life? Do you make anything happen? Have a scan through and see what you can find. Please give examples from your experience. Be as precise and detailed as you can.


No because that me is a mind constructed idea and anything happening in the mind is after the fact.
All events, thoughts, choices, actions are ideas that are therefore after the fact. Any deciding, intending, choosing or controlling would necessarily have to happen before all this.
All these things seem to be happening spontaneously.

There is quite a lot of reasoning in here: (this because of that, that therefore this). Please have a look at this one again, taking your time, answering just from your experience and being as precise and detailed with your answers as you can.

The truth is staring (us) in the face, Robert! Any unexamined teachings, received concepts and ideas, and intellectual deductions, whilst maybe seeming to get close, only really form a veil seeming to separate 'us' from 'it'. So, as earnest as you are in your intention, be just as ruthless in your seeing, questioning any assumptions no matter how tiny or subtle, no matter whether they have come from cultural conditioning or spiritual teaching.

Last question for today:

4) Is there now anything - be it desire or fear - which is demanding/inviting the presence of a 'Robert' separate from just 'what is happening'? Then if something comes up as yes, - look carefully - is there any real Robert to own that desire or fear?

So for now I will leave you looking, looking, looking, and questioning, questioning, questioning!

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Thanks for all that
Still here
Shall respond shortly
Thanks again
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark,

The truth is staring (us) in the face, Robert!

Yes, I had that sense even before your post.

1)

Everything arises and fades away.
This is an often heard phrase in the 'spiritual' teachings world. When you say this, what does it mean to you?

Clarifying this actually helped. A better way of saying this would be - appear and disappear. Now they are here, now they are not.

So looking at your questions I decided to go with number 3 and 4 first, rather than getting stuck on 'others'. If I could see the truth of those questions the 'others' would be obvious. As I sat with them a subtle but major shift occurred. I realized I did not have to get rid of fear and desire. They were just thoughts appearing. I did not have to get rid of Robert, that was just another thought appearing. As was everything else. I sat for some time reveling in this great insight as all kinds of thoughts beliefs and ideas paraded before me. Then the thought 'This is it' went from joy to disappointment and back 'I' was. This has allowed me to look at and experience several areas that 'apparently' needed some looking at.
Total Acceptance or the non acceptance for what is.
Things I Hate, I hate it when ..., or I hate that I ... And the desire to eliminate it.
The want/need for change, to everything and everyone including myself.
All three of these I see as more thoughts and emotions. However I am not ready to fully answer your remaining questions just yet.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Good.

Yes, I agree with your approach of looking at the other questions first, then 'others' will fall into place, as it were!

Anyway, I look forward to the rest of your responses, and don't forget to take another look at the 3rd question, taking your time, answering just from your experience and being as precise and detailed with your answers as you can.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark,
I had a dream months ago - I was lying exhausted face down on the road, lots of people walking by, some stepping on me. And then someone said, "Come on let's go". I replied, "Can't do it no more, I'm done". They reached out their hand, helped me up and walked with me a while. They showed me to a door and I knew that going through that door was what I was looking for all this time. Just before liberation unleashed I had another dream of the outstretched arm reaching down to help me. Thanks for being there. I really appreciate the way you never answered "my" questions. Your pointing has been impeccable.

2)You write...
What is left with them when the stories are dropped?
right now - just beings.
then...
It is not happening to anyone because all 'anyone's ' are just thoughts of the mind.

So when happening to 'you' this is just a thought of the mind, but the 'others' are actual beings? Please have another look at this, and see which feels more right? Spend some more time over it.

'Others' - In one sense they are unique expressions of IT. In another there are no others. There is only IT experiencing ITSELF in infinite ways.

3) OK, so can you now observe and tell me whether you can find anything at all - events, thoughts, choices, actions - that you decide, intend, choose or control in Life? Do you make anything happen?

So I was having a little trouble with deciding, choosing and controlling so I just went to bed last night looking for the truth of this. Woke up this morning, looked at the questions and one word summed up what I saw. IMPOSSIBLE.
There is no 'me' to do any of those things, or anything at all for that matter.
All those things are happening but not by 'Robert'.

4) Is there now anything - be it desire or fear - which is demanding/inviting the presence of a 'Robert' separate from just 'what is happening'? Then if something comes up as yes, - look carefully - is there any real Robert to own that desire or fear?

Robert is just another thought like all the other thoughts. Those emotions may happen and are observed and experienced but not by 'Robert'.

Thanks again
Robert

[ElPortal]

It's truly an honour, Robert.

Excellent clear responses there.

Please, now look at the third question again. Can you think of some examples and describe how the process of choosing, acting, happens. For example simple things like, a) slowly raise your right arm over your head. In that simple process of raising the right arm or not, a decision seems to be made, or something happens (or doesn't). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? Can a chooser actually be found? Or, b) maybe you can find other simple examples from something you did today? I would like you if possible to give an almost mechanical description of what appears to be going on in one or two examples of choosing, acting, controlling or similar. As though I were a curious child and you were explaining it to me.

Two other things: a) how do you feel about all of this now?

.. and b), do you have any questions or issues you would like to raise now?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I guess we could not leave that stone unturned.
Shall respond shortly
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Just a gentle reminder again. Our work is not done yet.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark