Looking for assistance

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

No problem and thanks for letting me know. I'm looking forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

My turn to give you a heads up to let you know in good time that I'll be going on retreat for 12 days on Saturday, so the last day I can reply to your posts will be this Friday, November 22nd. I'll be able to post again on Saturday December 7th so, effectively two weeks out of the guiding loop.

Depending on your answers to the various questions in my earlier post, but particularly, 'Are you sure that there is no separate self and never has been one?', I'll know whether I can now send you the final questions, with a view to you being able to complete this process before I go. However, the last thing I want to do is rush you through this so, if we haven't finished by this Friday, that's absolutely fine, no problem. There would then be two choices. I can either ask for another guide to take over from me, or you can also take a couple of weeks break to reflect on and integrate what's happened so far, and then we can resume when I get back. I'm happy to go with whichever suits you best Zoe, so please let me know which you'd prefer.

Pete x

Ps. The 13th word in the 5th to last line of the first of my two posts sent yesterday should read case for, not casework. Just Apple trying to be helpful and failing, and me not noticing!

[Zoe Mac]

Hi Pete,

Why then do you refer to parts of the body, i.e. tummy,arms, legs, hands a nose as extending into the visual aspect of direct experience. All there is in direct experience is sense arisings. Can you actually directly experience concepts like body, arm, leg etc? If you really can, please describe what you see.

I see what you're saying, these body part names are learned terms as well as the concept that they are "My feet" "My shoulders" If I were to look at these things as if id never looked before, they would be a part of the overall. Just like everything else. The only difference being sensations can be felt when it moves, when it is touched- Unlike everything else.

"I kind of feel like that despite the fact that there is no entity to be found that is controlling the body, that it just does things that just come up, just happen, it is still a body interacting with the world. Touching and feeling things and experiencing sensation. Am starting to think perhaps not my body, but still a body?"
Again, that's what you think and feel, not direct experience. You may well think there's a 'you' as a separate self, and then maybe other times you think there isn't, but thoughts cannot be relied on, they are not reality. Direct experience is.

Can you find a body in direct experience?{/quote]
Ack! I just can't stop looking at it like "my body" or "a body" - I know this is thought related, but try as I might to look in direct experience like with previous questions, I can't seem to see past it.

Can you find a self in direct experience?
I can't find a self in direct experience.

"Great insight thankyou. I see no evidence for a self beyond the claim of thought, but cant accept its non existence like I do with santa. I really wish I could. am hoping with time..."
Please explain what you mean when you say that, even though you can see no evidence for there being a separate self, you still can't accept that the self doesn't exist. Surely, it can only be the claim of thought that is causing you to believe that you don't accept this. What else could it be?

I have a hard time dismissing the existence of something that can't be found for a small fraction of the day whilst looking for it. I've been taught all of my life that there is a lot of scientific proof that things exist that can't be seen. I question them. Don't believe in them, but find it hard to disbelieve also. I see this is the claim of thought. All my past experiences, remembrances, learned behaviour, beliefs- I see that they are powered by the mind. I just feel like while I disbelieve in a self, though looking at what actually can be found in direct experience, I don't believe in there being no self. How can I KNOW or PROVE there isn't one?

Is it that you were expecting that once it was seen that the self was non-existent, there would be some remarkable feeling or event or state? For some that may be the casework a while, but for many others it's much quieter and well, almost ordinary.

I don't think so. Its more that I really don't feel like I know anything for sure. I think maybe Ive had a few moments of clarity throughout the investigation where I've seemed to be able to get that the mind/ thoughts/ self isn't in control, but it is the mind doing this investigation, and I almost feel like its saying what its meant to say, but not buying into anything it should be. I really want to know for sure that theres no separate self. I'm not sure how to.

Are you sure that there is no separate self and never has been one?

I'm not sure. I'm sorry. :(

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My turn to give you a heads up to let you know in good time that I'll be going on retreat for 12 days on Saturday, so the last day I can reply to your posts will be this Friday, November 22nd. I'll be able to post again on Saturday December 7th so, effectively two weeks out of the guiding loop.

Depending on your answers to the various questions in my earlier post, but particularly, 'Are you sure that there is no separate self and never has been one?', I'll know whether I can now send you the final questions, with a view to you being able to complete this process before I go. However, the last thing I want to do is rush you through this so, if we haven't finished by this Friday, that's absolutely fine, no problem. There would then be two choices. I can either ask for another guide to take over from me, or you can also take a couple of weeks break to reflect on and integrate what's happened so far, and then we can resume when I get back. I'm happy to go with whichever suits you best Zoe, so please let me know which you'd prefer.

Thanks Pete, I hope you have a wonderful retreat.

I don't mind whether I wait and we continue on your return (if needed) or if you refer me to another guide- whichever you feel would be more productive. Anytime within the next 1 - 4 weeks I'm jumping on a plane to Asia. As soon as my apartment is refurbished and have found a Tennant. So with that there could potentially be further disruptions as I find my feet somewhere over there. Am happy to go with whichever you would feel more suitable.

Kind wishes,

Zo

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

Thanks for your post. Sorry, I can't reply properly today as I have to be away for a short while. I'll let you have a full answer tomorrow afternoon (my time).

Love, Pete

[Zoe Mac]

No probs Pete, very kind of you to give me the heads up.

Look forward to hearing from you

Zoe x

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

I have a hard time dismissing the existence of something that can't be found for a small fraction of the day whilst looking for it. I've been taught all of my life that there is a lot of scientific proof that things exist that can't be seen. I question them. Don't believe in them, but find it hard to disbelieve also. I see this is the claim of thought. All my past experiences, remembrances, learned behaviour, beliefs- I see that they are powered by the mind. I just feel like while I disbelieve in a self, though looking at what actually can be found in direct experience, I don't believe in there being no self. How can I KNOW or PROVE there isn't one?

I don't know what you mean by something that can't be found for a small fraction of the day when you have't been able to find a separate self any of the time. It seems very clear to me that you have definitely seen that there's no self but you won't let yourself believe that. There seems to be too much resistance or fear just to accept the truth. My job as guide is simply to get you to look into direct experience so that can see for yourself that there is no self and never has been one. I can't persuade you not to listen to your thoughts telling you otherwise, only you can do that Zoe.

it is the mind doing this investigation

No it most certainly isn't. If you rely on the mind, i.e. thoughts, you'll never see the truth of no self. If you pay them attention and give them any credence, they'll just keep running you round and round in circles. Only looking, looking, looking into 'your' direct experience will show the truth.

I don't mind whether I wait and we continue on your return (if needed) or if you refer me to another guide- whichever you feel would be more productive. Anytime within the next 1 - 4 weeks I'm jumping on a plane to Asia. As soon as my apartment is refurbished and have found a Tennant. So with that there could potentially be further disruptions as I find my feet somewhere over there. Am happy to go with whichever you would feel more suitable.

I reckon your imminent move to Asia is another important factor in all of this. From what you say, it looks very much as if either we'll both be unable to post at the same time, but with you perhaps out of touch for quite a while after that, or you'll be going out of the loop just as I get back. On the other hand, another guide might take over for just a few days and you'll then have to stop posting because you're moving to Asia. So, what to do?

When all's said and done, it's your thread so, in the end, it's up to you but, for what it's worth, my feeling is that, as you're very soon going to be away from posting here on LU for quite a while, and I'm just about to have to stop for a couple of weeks, it might be best for you to take a break now until you're settled in Asia, during which time you can reflect on and absorb all that you've discovered here with me. Then, as and when you feel that you're ready to resume, you can contact me and tell me whether you want to continue with me, or for me to find another guide for you. No problem either way. What do you reckon?

Let me know Zo.

Lots of love,

Pete.

[Zoe Mac]

Hi Pete,

I've been thinking about everything and really feel I'm still in need of further guidance. This process with you has beenI'm absolutely invaluable thus far, you've shown me a greaI'll deal and I can't thank you enough, I'm just afraid if I stop right now it will be a little bit premature.

I've spoken to David who actually referred me to LU from Facebook about it, and he's kindly offered to be my guide in your absence. I feel confident that with the right amount of dedication ill still be able to make the daily posts work whilst travelling. (If in fact they're still required by that time)

You have my greatest thanks for all your help this month. Such a wonderful gift!

Hope you enjoy the retreat :)

Best wishes,

Zoe xx

[Zoe Mac]

Oops, sorry there shouldn't be an 'i'm' there after 'been'

[Zoe Mac]

And I'm not sure how that "I'll" made it's way in between "great deal" - sorry!

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

That's great. I hope David helps you over that last little bit.

Go well Zo.

Love, Pete

[Zoe Mac]

Thanks again Pete, all the best xx

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

I've just spent the last hour looking in detail through the thread to get a good idea as to where you are. You've made great progress with Pete so far, and you are closer than you think.

I remember that frustration very well. You look and look and expect to find. But the thing is there's nothing to find. This cannot be solved using thought. Try sitting as Pete suggested, breathing deeply, then look to see if you can find anything called a self without using thought. Just look quietly, is there a self there when you aren't thinking? If you find this difficult, see if there's a self between thoughts. What happens to the self when you aren't thinking?

You have seen that you are not the chooser, or the seer, or the hearer, or the doer, or any other thing. Look into this statement: what comes up if I tell you that your are a collection of things that aren't you? You aren't your thoughts, feelings, mental states or your body. What you call the self is just a thought that puts all of these things together.

I've given you a lot to look into there. Spend some time looking, but get back to me whenever you feel ready.

Looking forward to hearing what you discover.

Speak to you soon,
David x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi David,

Great to see you hear and deep thanks to you for taking me on.

I remember that frustration very well. You look and look and expect to find. But the thing is there's nothing to find. This cannot be solved using thought. Try sitting as Pete suggested, breathing deeply, then look to see if you can find anything called a self without using thought. Just look quietly, is there a self there when you aren't thinking? If you find this difficult, see if there's a self between thoughts. What happens to the self when you aren't thinking?

I seem to have been doing this a lot for the last week. Not in any way intentionally- Just almost habitually when quiet moments arise. With the exception of thought I can never find a self. Not once. When I look for one, its almost like the peripheral of my vision grows wider, my senses all sharpen- but nope no skerrick of a self anywhere.

You have seen that you are not the chooser, or the seer, or the hearer, or the doer, or any other thing. Look into this statement: what comes up if I tell you that your are a collection of things that aren't you?

I find this statement hard to comprehend. Have sat with it for a while and can't understand I'm sorry.

You aren't your thoughts, feelings, mental states or your body. What you call the self is just a thought that puts all of these things together.

I think I see what you're saying. All these things are totally unrelated phenomena which the mind labels separately and then groups as one thing, followed by slapping on a sense of ownership? ("me/I") I guess the senses also?

Interesting concept to look at while watching the day unfold.

Thanks again David.

Best wishes,


Zoe x

[Zoe Mac]

Apologies, first sentence should say "here", not "hear." That one always gets me lol :)

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

Hope you're well. Just checked the time difference. It's 7.30pm here and 3.30am there. I'll aim to post at this time each day, which means you can catch up with what I've said in the mornings.

. I think I see what you're saying. All these things are totally unrelated phenomena which the mind labels separately and then groups as one thing, followed by slapping on a sense of ownership? ("me/I") I guess the senses also?

Yes, exactly. It's a bit like the classic example often used of a university. A university is a collection of buildings, open spaces, students and a whole collection of other stuff. But if you go to a university there is nothing you could actually point to that would be the university itself, just the things that make up that university.

The self is the same, nothing but a bundle of feelings, thoughts and sensations that get lumped together as one thing that doesn't actually exist as a separate entity. Is this your experience? In your explorations so far have you managed to find such an entity?

Sit for a while with this. When you inquire into your direct experience do you find anything other than a bundle of thoughts and sensations? What comes up when you consider that's what the self actually is?

Speak to you soon,
David x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi David,

Oh you're in the UK? Morning check in's it is :)

The self is the same, nothing but a bundle of feelings, thoughts and sensations that get lumped together as one thing that doesn't actually exist as a separate entity. Is this your experience? In your explorations so far have you managed to find such an entity?

I struggle with this concept. That the self is actually all of these individual things. On inspection, I find nothing in direct experience that ties a "me" or "a self" to any of these things. (except perhaps thoughts and feelings, when I'm buying into the stories- The ideas of my past and future which aren't here.)

Sit for a while with this. When you inquire into your direct experience do you find anything other than a bundle of thoughts and sensations? What comes up when you consider that's what the self actually is?

Can sight be considered a sensation?

In direct experience I encounter;

- A 'body' - Collection of limbs and skin and such that more and more I can notice seems to be doing its own thing
- A vast display of colour and shapes before me.
- Endless sensations. Tingling, itching, tickling, brushing, ache, pin pricks etc
- Dog bark, traffic, subtle hum or ringing to the right, sound of breath
- Lemony flavour...

So many things.

When considering these things are self...

I sat with this idea and the mind persisted to just go blank. I guess I can't find a connection to a self in any of it. Or can't understand the connection. The word self, or I or me, is something I've never found in direct experience. In any of these things. That's not to say I don't get caught up in the idea of it. On another note, yesterday someone said something very nasty to me. I took it extremely personally and spent the rest of the day very upset. It still lingers. How can this be?
If I can find no self, how can I resonate so strongly with one?

Best wishes,
Zoe x