Seeking Only TRUTH

[Xain]

My 'Gate' is the responsibilities and goals that still exist.

What 'I' has responsibilities and goals?
This is not to dismiss or belittle anything.
But are you saying that although there is no 'I' in the past, nor an 'I' here now, there IS an 'I' in the future?

Stuff may or may not be done. Goals will be achieved (or not). Responsibilities will be met (or not).
Where is the 'I' is all this . . . other than a thought?

I move back and forth between knowing there's no 'I' - when the gate fades - and being certain that I need to get up tomorrow morning to go to work so I can get money to pay for food, shelter, healthcare, etc

Sorry, tell me exactly what does this . . .
Right now, is 'tomorrow morning' anything other than a thought?
Even given the notion that time exists, when 'tomorrow' arrives, will there be an 'I' there?

Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts.
Right now, there is pure experience with no 'I' experiencing. Is this the case?
All else is a thought is it not?

I guess I understand, but don't yet KNOW that 'I' didn't get 'me' this far

What 'I' has got to a certain point?
What 'I' made any achievement?

Sit still. Relax. Clear the mind.
What is 'I' other than a thought?
What troubles does 'I' have . . . other than more thoughts?

The 'I' thought will continually appear.
Is there an 'I' that can prevent it?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I'm feel like I understand and agree that there is no 'I,' and that 'I' therefore has neither done anything in the past nor will do anything in the future. And, I realize that what I'm going to say next completely refutes this, and this is frustrating me mightily because I see the blatant inconsistency . . . but, there doesn't seem to be anything responsible for my body other than 'I.' And, my body needs food, etc. 'I' is a thought. My body seems to be more than a thought - thoughts can come and go, or change, or whatever. Thoughts don't have real needs - they're just thoughts. My body seems to have real needs. And, none of the rest of the non-existent 'I' people in the entire world care about the body that's pretending to provide a home to my non-existent 'I. So, that kind of leaves my non-exitent 'I' to take care of it. Even though my 'I' can't do anything. Help!!!

[Xain]

Hi Gafith

Before replying fully, please have a look at what I wrote previously and try to answer all the questions.
If there is a problem or you don't understand what is being asked, just let me know and we can have a look at this.

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

Sorry, tell me exactly what does this . . .
Right now, is 'tomorrow morning' anything other than a thought?

It's definitely just a thought.

Even given the notion that time exists, when 'tomorrow' arrives, will there be an 'I' there?

No, there won't be an 'I' there tomorrow

Right now, there is pure experience with no 'I' experiencing. Is this the case?
All else is a thought is it not?

Maybe this is where I'm losing it. There's definitely experience. I'm less clear on how there could be experience without something experiencing it. I do understand that experience is just a thought. I must be misunderstanding something here - when you've told me to LOOK, I've been under the imrpession that thought was to be avoided, and therefore experience was all that was left when I looked.

What 'I' has got to a certain point?
What 'I' made any achievement?

I have seen that there is no 'I' so intellectually I understand that no 'I' has gotten me here or had any achievements. And, 'I' can't protect my body going forward, and couldn't/didn't need to in the past. 'I' don't KNOW it, though. Which is a thought

Sit still. Relax. Clear the mind.
What is 'I' other than a thought?
What troubles does 'I' have . . . other than more thoughts?

'I' doesn't have any troubles. The thoughts . . . well, 'I' seems to think that if 'I' don't take responsibility, my body will find itself knee deep in hookers and blow and/or emaciated in a dry creek. 'I' am convinced 'I' have been a wonderful addition! All thoughts giving life to the non-existent 'I.'

The 'I' thought will continually appear.
Is there an 'I' that can prevent it?

No. Definitely NO.

[Xain]

Your replies are excellent and quite clear - Let's probe more on this one:

Right now, there is pure experience with no 'I' experiencing. Is this the case?
All else is a thought is it not?

Maybe this is where I'm losing it. There's definitely experience. I'm less clear on how there could be experience without something experiencing it. I do understand that experience is just a thought. I must be misunderstanding something here - when you've told me to LOOK, I've been under the impression that thought was to be avoided, and therefore experience was all that was left when I looked.

I understand your question perfectly. However, you are looking for an answer that cannot be found - Only experienced. All that can be done is to look and find what the truth is.

If 'I' is always a thought, then trying to think of an answer will always reinforce 'I'.
'I' will be accepted as real by the mind every time. You will believe the answer you get from thought without actually examining your experience here and now to see if the answer you are getting is indeed true.

All we are interested in here (for the moment) is looking for a separate 'I'.
Clearly there is experience. That is without question.
Can a 'thing' be found that is experiencing?

'Thought' will not help you to find something that you believe is here. For that you must find it. Yes?
If all that can be found is a thought - Then the thing you are looking for isn't here. Yes?

Experience was all that was left when I looked

Is that quite clear. Is this certain.
Then what more is needed?

'I' doesn't have any troubles. The thoughts . . . well, 'I' seems to think that if 'I' don't take responsibility, my body will find itself knee deep in hookers and blow and/or emaciated in a dry creek. 'I' am convinced 'I' have been a wonderful addition! All thoughts giving life to the non-existent 'I.'

Examine the truth of what you have written. Is this truth or thought?
If it is truth, please fully explain and examine the 'I' in each case and describe to me how they appear and function.

The 'I' thought will continually appear.
Is there an 'I' that can prevent it?

No. Definitely NO.

Can you see how it is continually popping up and causing panic and stress?
Can you see how this stress is totally unjustified, and all that panic and worry is over nothing but a thought?

. . . but, there doesn't seem to be anything responsible for my body other than 'I.'

Ok, please describe this 'I'. The one that takes responsibility for the body.
Also, when you say 'my body', please describe to me the 'I' that owns the body.
Or is all this just thoughts.

My body seems to have real needs

Real needs? Or a thought about real needs?
What 'I' is going to attend to the body's needs?

So, that kind of leaves my non-existent 'I' to take care of it.

Once again you resort to 'non-existent'. All we are looking for is a separate 'I' that can be found.
No-one is advocating nihilism.
It appears that you are saying that there is a 'non-existent I' here right now.
How is this known? Or is this just a thought?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

If 'I' is always a thought, then trying to think of an answer will always reinforce 'I'.

Just to make sure I understand this . . . is the reverse true - is a thought always a construction of an 'I'?

All we are interested in here (for the moment) is looking for a separate 'I'.
Clearly there is experience. That is without question.
Can a 'thing' be found that is experiencing?

No, it can't

'Thought' will not help you to find something that you believe is here. For that you must find it. Yes?
If all that can be found is a thought - Then the thing you are looking for isn't here. Yes?

I most definitely understand and agree with the second point. I'm struggling with the first one, though. Are you saying that finding it is the only way to blow-up a false belief that arose from thought, not experience?

Experience was all that was left when I looked
Is that quite clear. Is this certain.
Then what more is needed?

It's quite clear that it WOULD be true and nothing more needed, but there's no indication that I ever achieved full (thought-free) experience.

'I' doesn't have any troubles. The thoughts . . . well, 'I' seems to think that if 'I' don't take responsibility, my body will find itself knee deep in hookers and blow and/or emaciated in a dry creek. 'I' am convinced 'I' have been a wonderful addition! All thoughts giving life to the non-existent 'I.'
Examine the truth of what you have written. Is this truth or thought?
If it is truth, please fully explain and examine the 'I' in each case and describe to me how they appear and function.

It's thought. Not truth.

The 'I' thought will continually appear.
Is there an 'I' that can prevent it?

No. Definitely NO.

Can you see how it is continually popping up and causing panic and stress?
Can you see how this stress is totally unjustified, and all that panic and worry is over nothing but a thought?

I do see that. Yet, when I do consciously see that, I catch myself trying to replace it with a different, less objectionable, thought, but a thought nonetheless. Which doesn't actually help at all, I know. Doesn't even make sense, given that I see that. I'm trying to protect something that doesn't need protecting. But, I'm still getting there through thought, not real experience.

. . . but, there doesn't seem to be anything responsible for my body other than 'I.'
Ok, please describe this 'I'. The one that takes responsibility for the body.
Also, when you say 'my body', please describe to me the 'I' that owns the body.
Or is all this just thoughts.

Grrrr.... they're just thoughts.

Real needs? Or a thought about real needs?
What 'I' is going to attend to the body's needs?

There's no 'I' to attend to my body's needs. But my body has real needs, doesn't it? The body itself doesn't seem necessary, though.

So, that kind of leaves my non-existent 'I' to take care of it.
Once again you resort to 'non-existent'. All we are looking for is a separate 'I' that can be found.
No-one is advocating nihilism.
It appears that you are saying that there is a 'non-existent I' here right now.
How is this known? Or is this just a thought?

I do seem to keep reverting to 'non-existent,' and losing perspective on the non-separate aspect. I seem to be focussed only on not finding an 'I' and not knowing how to get from that to understanding that there's not entirely nothing, there's just nothing separate. Something has the experience. It's just not 'I." It's the thing 'I' is a part of that encompasses everything. Only problem is, I'm arriving at this through thought - I have not found any experience of oneness (or whatever the proper term would be).

[Xain]

We seem to be going round in circles here.

The 'I' thought will continually appear.
Is there an 'I' that can prevent it?
No. Definitely NO.

It's quite clear that it WOULD be true and nothing more needed, but there's no indication that I ever achieved full (thought-free) experience.

What 'I' is there that would achieve a thought-free experience? Describe that one as you see it.
I thought that we had already established that the 'I' thought would continually re-appear as there was no controller of thoughts and nothing to prevent it?

Yet, when I do consciously see that, I catch myself trying to replace it with a different, less objectionable, thought, but a thought nonetheless.

Is there an 'I' that does that? Or does it just happen?

Also, when you say 'my body', please describe to me the 'I' that owns the body.
Or is all this just thoughts.
Grrrr.... they're just thoughts.

Please explain 'Grrrrrr'. Do you feel I am being unfair in some way?
I ask you to be honest and look into your experience for the truth. Are you not doing that?
Why the hostility?

But my body has real needs, doesn't it?

Again, we go round in circles. We have already covered this one.
What 'I' owns the body?

At this point, I will advocate a period of reflection. Perhaps rest and consider what we have discussed over the next week or two and come back to it.
Perhaps you would like to look back over the conversation and ponder over what we have discussed for a while.

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I completely agree - we're going in circles. I'm going in circles, dragging you along. I apologize! I'm not doing it intentionally, but I'm doing it nonetheless. Lot's of 'I's . . . .

Please explain 'Grrrrrr'. Do you feel I am being unfair in some way?
I ask you to be honest and look into your experience for the truth. Are you not doing that?
Why the hostility?

You're not being unfair at all! The Grrrr was my frustration with myself. I know it's simple, I know you're right, I know you've been patient, yet I still can't get out of my own way. I've read about half of "Gateless Gatecrashers" and assuming that the text isn't abridged, plenty of people can make the leap far more directly than I have. And, now, apparently, 'I' has won. I certainly think I've been honest and looked as I understood you to be guiding me to do, but obviously I'm not doing it right enough. Now I'm so confused that I'm not even sure how to communicate any more! It takes me 30-45 minutes each time to respond, yet nothing changes. I understand my thoughts are causing the problem by creating a separte 'I.' But if I don't use 'I' there's not much to say. But if i say 'I' i confirm 'I" which is obviously opposed to what we're trying to do and we go in circles. If nothing else, you taught me that life just happens (thank you for that!), and coincidentally I'm getting a particularly visible dose - yesterday, out of nowhere, I was notified by the Uniao de Vegetale that I was no longer a member due to insufficient attendance at their ceremonies, even thought it was caused by my responsibilities to my faltering parents. Maybe 'I' will stop seeming separate when there's nobody left to be separate from :)

How might I know when/if it would be appropriate to resume?

In any case, I really appreciate all the time, thought and effort you so generously gave me. I really believe you helped me in a major way, and I'm grateful for all you have shared with me. Keep up the great work!

Ted

[Xain]

Hi Ted

What real 'I' can you find that is not within a thought?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I cannot find one. The search finds nothing.

[Xain]

So with no real 'I' here now, was there ever a real 'I' in the 'past'?
Will there be a real 'I' in the future?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

No, there was never a real 'I' in the past, and there won't be a real 'I' in the future.

[Xain]

What more is required?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I can't figure out what that means in regards to responsibility for the words and actions of the body in society. I understand that without an 'I' there is no doer. But bodies do things, bodies are held responsible, and bodies go to jail (for example).

[Xain]

But bodies do things

So there is no 'I' to do things, but 'bodies' do things.
Ok. What controls the bodies to do things?

There is a body in 'your' experience right now.
What controls it to do things?

Bodies are held responsible, and bodies go to jail (for example).

Another thought?
Is there any control behind these things you mention? Or does it all just 'happen'?

Xain ♥