Guide THIS please

[Troy]

every time the self is looked for it cannot be found. all thought stops...Who or what is looking? There is something looking. What do you wish to call it?

When looking stops or intense focus - thoughts return. No one thinks this thoughts but someone experiences them. What do you want to call that? Who and where is the experiencer? ? ? There is only consciousness or awareness.

So the ego self doesn't exists because every time it is looked for it cannot be found yet it returns as soon as looking ends. The experiencer cannot be found either just the presence that exists now that is looking and talking with you, seeing, typing, breathing, and in a word Life, It is just happening. there is no me.

Yet why the mind noise? Can I be okay if it continues? Absolutely. It manifests nothing. It can choose to think thoughts but only from a frame a reference of the past. It can try to project into the future but it can create nothing new.

Thank you for your time and help

x

[Hannah B-T]

Your expression is still very confusing to me- it still seems to indicate strongly some sort of subtle entity that can choose and create...let me show you what i mean and maybe you can take a look at that again.

There is something looking. What do you wish to call it?

Is that something you describe 'personal'?
Is there more than one of this something?
Is there one of those 'somethings' there and one here?

No one thinks this thoughts but someone experiences them.

What is this 'someone' that experiences them?
How is it known that there is a someone present that experiences thoughts? Can you show or describe how that is perceived?

So the ego self doesn't exists because every time it is looked for it cannot be found yet it returns as soon as looking ends

How can something that doesn't exist return? Please try to explain this again.
What is the direct experience of this 'egoself' when it returns?

It can choose to think thoughts

What is this 'it' here that is choosing to think thoughts?

It can try to project into the future but it can create nothing new

What is this 'it' that is trying to project?

many thanks

[Troy]

I do not know if it is personal. I am not sure I understand.

There does not seem to be more then one....and it is unknown 'what this someone is'.

How is it known?...Describe..? The senses experience what is 'happening'. But if there is no one to watch or experience it why is this happening? Where is this awareness if not everywhere. Why anything...Why Be at all? (just asking)(who it asking? :)O..........This is asking, but the answer seems irrelevant.

The egoself is equated with the mind noise. I like that "does it matter if it never goes away?" There is peace in that. the direct experience of that would be the mind starting to 'chirp' and present 'desires' or distractions(away from peace).

THe ego self appears to have a choice on thinking. Like a program that won't shut off.

I don't know if that helps but I did go back and work on the original question that you sent ...

[Troy]

'Is there a self present in this experience right now?'

There is a self or presence...Where you ask?...it cannot be found anymore then the wind can be grasped. and if no self exists then how am I here? How does this body move and do things. I don't care if you call it Troy or dirt organized. What organized this dirt?...

The egoself doesn't exist as an entity. is there something personal? I don't know.

x

[Hannah B-T]

and it is unknown 'what this someone is'.

God?
Awareness?
Life?

What is the relationship between this above and thoughts and images about Troy?
What is the relationship between this above and the body?

Where is this awareness if not everywhere

is that a question, or a statement of the current experience?

But if there is no one to watch or experience it why is this happening?

Well...IS there anyone watching or experiencing?
'Why' questions will only lead to conceptual speculation here....

Why anything...Why Be at all?

Why not?
It's all gone a bit Hamlet...;)

The egoself is equated with the mind noise

Like...'i did this... i'm doing that tomorrow, so-and so said this to me...i remember when...' -is this what we are talking about? I simply call this 'I' thoughts... Because it's all just thoughts, right?

What exactly do you mean by 'mind' here?
Can you find a 'mind' in direct experience?

the direct experience of that would be the mind starting to 'chirp' and present 'desires' or distractions(away from peace).

Ok, that's clearer. But take a look at the 'mind' thing above...

THe ego self appears to have a choice on thinking

Wait a minute!...

Ego-self= 'i' thoughts=thoughts
Can a thought chose other thoughts?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought DO anything whatsoever?

There is a self or presence

well those 2 words point to totally different things to me.
A self is usually described as a personal, seperate entity with name,form. What is commonly called Troy.
Presence doesn't imply any of that...
Am I talking to Troy?
Or presence?

and if no self exists then how am I here?

well it doesn't and never has!...
What are you referring to with the 'i' in this sentance? Sorry to keep repeating but i need to be clear on that.

How does this body move and do things

No idea. Who cares? Why does it matter?

What organized this dirt?...

huh? are you experiencing being made of 'dirt' right now? Organised or not!?

is there something personal? I don't know.

Troy. You are a complete failure.

How 'personal' is that sentance?
how is that sort of statement reacted to now? what thoughts and sensations come up?

[Troy]

:)

[Troy]

Ego-self = personal separate entity, troy, 'I' thoughts....got it
Presence = the one Self with all others, that which is all in all, The Life...? true?

"If No Self exists then how am I here?" - Better said if no presence exists how did this dirt that is the body organize into a body? and how do I have thoughts. The awareness that is us both was thinking you were insinuating that there was nothing at all. As in no presence or awareness or universal energy or Life or God or Goddess or whatever it is called by humans. That's all.

I need some clarification on 'Direct Experience'? 'Is there a mind in your direct experience?' Please define.

Can a thought chose other thoughts?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought DO anything whatsoever?

- This made it easy to 'see'. It became obvious. These statements have been used many times over the last few hours to see again and again the falseness of the self. Thank You!

Troy, you are a failure. - Personal...Yes. It became personal for about a thousandth of a second. There was some emotion that arose but...too quickly gone to see...perhaps sadness but I will just call it pain. The presence ('in me') sees and recognizes there things (feelings) as not true and lets them go or rather doesn't need to experience them anymore. Not sure how to explain...it is just not Me(We) (presence).

I got a bit Hamlet on you because these are typical Q's that others ask me when I help them see the false self clearly. And I didn't have answers for them. So I through them at you. :) Thank You for your help on them.

You push me deeper Hannah and I appreciate that ... keep pushing. - this last little bit where 'I' is used, you are not talking to Troy.

I feel that it would be quicker to talk face to face to clear up uncertainties and concepts and work through the Q's you pose. It would have probably taken 20 minute to get it done. :) How do you approach one on one's or do you even do that?

x

[Hannah B-T]

I got a bit Hamlet on you because these are typical Q's that others ask me when I help them see the false self clearly. And I didn't have answers for them. So I through them at you. :) Thank You for your help on them.

There is no 'false self' vs 'true self'...
If you felt clear enough to guide others in this way before coming on here, then exactly what are you doing on a forum like this asking for guidance?
What is really being sought here?

[Troy]

Why ask for a guide...The first page 3rd post I told Richard what my experience was and that I needed clean up. So He went to work. You saw truly other things the Richard did not and THAT has been even more helpful. I have been searching for for over 15 years for what you have been able to get me to see in just a short time. I have been further then most around me and have studied so many different texts that I have a working knowledge but not the actual experience. Now that has changed. Thank You Hannah.

I seek only the truth nothing more nothing less.

You had told me that what if the mind noise doesn't go away? Can it be accepted? Yes. this was helpful too.

And finally your 3 questions about thoughts in the last post was a it. Are there doubts that remain? Some and my ultimate goal is a quiet peaceful mind and let the presence be and do without the commentary or questioning.

You seem to have such certainty when you are get at the center of 'me' ... And I don't feel that certain. Do I think I could guide someone there...I don't know. I am a natural teacher and if i understand something I can teach anyone how to get there. So I still don't understand enough to feel competent to get someone there. Isn't the goal to be able to help the next person ready to see, to see? That is why I still follow you and do what you ask.

Is that understandable?

x

[Hannah B-T]

I'm going to be frank here and hope you appreciate that

I have been further then most around me and have studied so many different texts that I have a working knowledge but not the actual experience

I can see that. The reason i can see that is a real sense that you can conceptually play very intelligently with expression of non-duality/no self, but that these expressions are recurrently taken on again as quite subtle beliefs that actually rebuild/recreate a new, more rarified and spiritualised 'story of Troy/awareness/life'. Hey. It happens. It's fine.
So I keep pointing that out/challenging that when that is seen to apparently be happening, because thoughts can be very tricky...and we go round and round...

that is...until the nature of thought itself is seen through, at it's core.

I have examined whether the things i am saying or questions are just being latched upon as part of the above process, because if that is what is happening, that is not serving anything.

I seek only the truth nothing more nothing less.

What is truth?
What criteria make up truth?
how will it be known when it is found?

Are there doubts that remain? Some

Well, what ones? This is the second time i've asked this without a straight answer.
Lay them out, in public, verbatim so they can be looked at. what's to hide?

Some and my ultimate goal is a quiet peaceful mind

What wants a 'quiet peaceful mind'
How could that be made to happen?
What would make that happen?

let the presence be

LOL!
this is a perfectly formed expression of an illusion of control.

When is there not presence?
What could 'let it be' or not?

Don't just give me the 'right' answers.
Really look.

You seem to have such certainty when you are get at the center of 'me' ... And I don't feel that certain

There is no center of you.
How could an illusory entity possibly have a center?

These phrases are simply an invitation to look!
Prove me wrong!

Isn't the goal to be able to help the next person ready to see, to see?

Ummm...as they say, before helping someone else with their oxygen mask...make sure yours is sorted out first.

I am a natural teacher and if i understand something I can teach anyone how to get there

Yes, you can learn a million beautiful concepts and impart them...this is absolutely and utterly not about that.
This is why the tool of looking into direct sensory experience is so vital.
It bypasses all the thoughts, the ideas about this.

What is needs no explanation analysis, or even expression through thought.
It just is.

So just ask again...is there an 'i' there, in direct sensory experience outside of the thought content talking about an 'i'/ a Troy?.....then just REST THERE for a while and see what happens.

[Troy]

'I' do see that there is nothing at the center that 'Troy' is only a thought and that thought has no foundation. These thoughts are indeed crafty and it is why your help is needed. The last thing that is needed is a 'spiritualised 'story of Troy" walking around. 'I' have seen that, not helpful.

NO core no center...none - true. Truth: just another layer of 'I'

Doubts: That 'I' doesn't have this 'Spiritualized Story' down to impress others. Yet another layer.

A peaceful mind is no longer a goal...Who cares?

Presence BE...lol thanks

Putting the Oxygen mask on...Wait...it always has been. :) Thanks H

One question: Thoughts tend to distract...How do you 'Rest there'? I can continue to see each thought come and go instantly as there is no foundation, but thoughts just keep coming. It doesn't feel very restful?

x

[Hannah B-T]

The last thing that is needed is a 'spiritualised 'story of Troy" walking around. 'I' have seen that, not helpful.

Couldn't agree more.

NO core no center...none - true

I'm trusting that this was actually seen when this was written.
Yes.
Like a pass the parcel with an empty box in the middle...

That 'I' doesn't have this 'Spiritualized Story' down to impress others.

Thank you.
Take a good hard look at this:

What are these 'others' that are imagined to be able to be impressed?
How are they experienced right now?

A peaceful mind is no longer a goal...Who cares?

'i' thoughts are not the enemy.
They just 'are'....thought-ing away...
blahblahblah...

Thoughts tend to distract...How do you 'Rest there'? I can continue to see each thought come and go instantly as there is no foundation, but thoughts just keep coming. It doesn't feel very restful?

if thoughts are really being seen like this, this is the resting i was talking about.
See what happens from there...

[Troy]

What the 'others' are imagined to be? mmmm? People? Friends/enemies? Tools to get what the 'I' wants. They are not what they seem...Now they just seem to be 'neutral'. nothing to be excited about either way. Will continue to look and see how they are experienced.

Still resting...

x

[Hannah B-T]

What are 'people'?
What is that word really referring to?

Take a look at that
When you are with others, family friends etc over the holidays, really question

if there is no self...
How could they have a self?
Is there any evidence that they do?
Is there a 'you' and a 'them'?
how is that experienced?

[Troy]

What are people?....What does this word really refer to?...mmm? Intellectually it is just a sign post pointing to something. Experientially I don't know...there is no them or me...THe mind appears to project itself onto them in some sort of dance...egos playing off one another...each with there 'fake' front but....I'm not sure? if no ego self or thought can do anything cannot be anything then we are watching life as it's played out though different view points and perceptions though all is one. and even this I know(intellectually) is lacking and not quite true.

experienced? This word is not easily understood in this setting...

I will keep working on it.

x