Seeking Guide

[neeeel]

Hey. Seems like you are a bit stuck again. Can you tell me the sticking point?

I'm coming up with a blank. There are thoughts arising that are trying to come up with an answer to your questions but they all seem inadequate and in a way pointless. There is still seeking, for what I'm not sure anymore. My mind seems to be racing with thoughts about this process.

You are coming up with a blank because thinking about the answer is not going to get you the answer. You need to look at what is actually happening in reality.

Remember, we are simply looking to see if we can find an actual self. Its as easy as checking your pocket for your wallet.

If I tell you I am holding a blue ball, will thinking about it help you to find out if its true? You can think for as long as you want about how likely it is for me to have a blue ball, what it would mean if I did have a blue ball, what the meaning of "blue" and "ball" is, and so on, but after all that thought, you will still not know whether I am holding a blue ball. The only way to find out is to look and see.

You are correct, the thoughts are inadequate and pointless.

We are not looking to remove thoughts, or stop thoughts. We are looking AT thoughts, and seeing if we can find a self that is thinking the thoughts. Do that with these thoughts that are going round and round looking for an answer.

Do you feel that the thought stream is you? Is the self?

I feel like this inquiry is a virus removal software, only the virus is "me." It feels like once the scanning and removal process is initiated there's no way to stop it even if I wanted it to stop. That's the best way I can describe it. Be careful what you wish for, huh?

Its possible that its a one way process, yes, I wouldnt really know

Please answer this question. What is being removed in this inquiry?

[Don]

Hey. Seems like you are a bit stuck again. Can you tell me the sticking point?

The sticking point is that even though I know conceptually that there is no looker, when I look into direct experience the looking feels as if that is "me" looking. I'm not sure if I've read too many spiritual books regarding the true "I" as being awareness, but that's what it feels like. I'm identifying with awareness but from what I understand the point of this process is total non-identification.

If I write about my direct experience right now, there is typing happening, thought arises, looking for a self, then there is awareness looking at thoughts of self, and more thoughts arising as awareness watches them arise. The thought arising that I've read too much and that I'm parroting the "correct" answers, and then the thought arising that wants to avoid doing that. Silence. I realize that the problem is that maybe I'm focusing on the content of thoughts versus the process of thinking, and that I should be focusing on looking for the thinker instead. Frustration arising, and then the thought arises that "I" want this so badly. Realize that this is not what you asked for, more concepts.

Please answer this question. What is being removed in this inquiry?

Ha I never thought of that. I guess nothing is supposed to be removed and that is the problem. The I wanting the I to disappear is not possible when there is no I to begin with, it's just a thought wanting thought to disappear.

I went out with a friend tonight and noticed that it was fascinating just observing the process of our body/mind patterns interacting. I felt less reactivity than usual, and just an intense interest in observing how everything interacts together, how the "I/me/mine" thought/belief plays out in reality. I'm not expecting this to last but it seems that when I take this perspective of there not being a self, either in myself or in others, it opens up this amazing view of reality. Being out in public, I notice less anxiety than before.

Feel free to bust out the Zen stick if you feel the need :)

[neeeel]

The sticking point is that even though I know conceptually that there is no looker, when I look into direct experience the looking feels as if that is "me" looking. I'm not sure if I've read too many spiritual books regarding the true "I" as being awareness, but that's what it feels like. I'm identifying with awareness but from what I understand the point of this process is total non-identification.

Not exactly. Although non identification would be great, we really just want to LOOK at identification and see if there is an entity that is identifying. Who or what is identifying with awareness? If the true "I" is awareness, then how can it also identify with awareness? Its like you are saying theres 2 "I"s, one that is the awareness, and one that is identifying with the awareness.

You say it feels as if there is a me looking. Is it true? Describe this feeling? Are there any thoughts attached as well? Eg thoughts about awareness, about the previous moment? In direct experience ( sounds, sights, smells, touch, taste, and experience of thought ( not content)) can you even find such a thing as awareness?

Close your eyes and listen to a sound. Is there a sound over there, and an awareness of the sound over here? Is it more true to say that the awareness of the sound IS the sound.

If I write about my direct experience right now, there is typing happening, thought arises, looking for a self, then there is awareness looking at thoughts of self, and more thoughts arising as awareness watches them arise. The thought arising that I've read too much and that I'm parroting the "correct" answers, and then the thought arising that wants to avoid doing that. Silence. I realize that the problem is that maybe I'm focusing on the content of thoughts versus the process of thinking, and that I should be focusing on looking for the thinker instead. Frustration arising, and then the thought arises that "I" want this so badly. Realize that this is not what you asked for, more concepts.

Is awareness looking at the thoughts of self?

Its interesting that you start out this paragraph impersonally ( were you perhaps doing an exercise you read about where you write your experience right now, without using pronouns?), and then switch to including "I"s about half way through.

Notice how the sticky thoughts in the middle of the paragraph are the ones that include a lot of "I"s, "shoulds" and problems to be solved.


It is a good exercise to do. Write a paragraph about what is happening right now, but use pronouns ( Eg I am typing, then I make a cup of tea, I think about no self, and then do some looking)

Then rewrite the paragraph without the "I"s ( typing is happening, walking to kitchen is happening, walking back to computer is happening, thoughts of no self happening, looking is happening)

Notice how each paragraph feels.

Ha I never thought of that. I guess nothing is supposed to be removed and that is the problem. The I wanting the I to disappear is not possible when there is no I to begin with, it's just a thought wanting thought to disappear.

Yes, this is key. Its just a thought saying "I want the I to disappear" or "I want thought to disappear". but because theres an I in there, it suddenly becomes important, and believed. Can we make thoughts stop? Try it. Describe what happens.

You also need to keep checking where these thoughts come from. Is there a self that is thinking about wanting thoughts to disappear? Or are these thoughts automatic and spontaneous?

We dont need thoughts to stop, or disappear. We are just looking to see if thoughts about I are true.

I went out with a friend tonight and noticed that it was fascinating just observing the process of our body/mind patterns interacting. I felt less reactivity than usual, and just an intense interest in observing how everything interacts together, how the "I/me/mine" thought/belief plays out in reality. I'm not expecting this to last but it seems that when I take this perspective of there not being a self, either in myself or in others, it opens up this amazing view of reality. Being out in public, I notice less anxiety than before.

It sounds like there has been a bit of a pattern shift here. Keep up with the looking. Taking on a perspective of there not being a self can be useful, and is something other guides recommend. I am wary of recommending it because we need to actually see that there is no self, rather than assume there is no self, or pretend there is no self, but if you are finding it useful, keep on with it. Just remember, we need to check that it is true that there is no self. We dont want to turn it into another belief.

Feel free to bust out the Zen stick if you feel the need :)

heh, no need. You are doing fine.

[Don]

Not exactly. Although non identification would be great, we really just want to LOOK at identification and see if there is an entity that is identifying. Who or what is identifying with awareness? If the true "I" is awareness, then how can it also identify with awareness? Its like you are saying theres 2 "I"s, one that is the awareness, and one that is identifying with the awareness.

Okay, I see the faulty logic behind this. A strange thing happened when you told me to,

“Close your eyes and listen to a sound. Is there a sound over there, and an awareness of the sound over here? Is it more true to say that the awareness of the sound IS the sound?”

The same thing can be said of any object in/of awareness, including thoughts. There was a belief that there were thoughts over there and an awareness of thoughts over here, but when I looked into d.E. I realized that there is no separation between thought and the awareness of thought, the two just arise together or as one. The belief that there was a space between the two has been seen as just a belief and it collapsed. I hope that I explained this so that you understand.

You say it feels as if there is a me looking. Is it true? Describe this feeling? Are there any thoughts attached as well? Eg thoughts about awareness, about the previous moment?

In d.E. when I am looking at this as I type it there is only looking and also the thought attached that I am doing the looking. I realize the need to be precise in this process.

In direct experience ( sounds, sights, smells, touch, taste, and experience of thought ( not content)) can you even find such a thing as awareness?

No. It’s like I said above, the “two” just arise together or as one. I need to investigate this more, it’s a good pointer.

Is awareness looking at the thoughts of self?

No. It’s the same as I said above, there is not an awareness “over here” looking at thoughts “over there,” the “two” just arise together or as one.

Its interesting that you start out this paragraph impersonally ( were you perhaps doing an exercise you read about where you write your experience right now, without using pronouns?), and then switch to including "I"s about half way through.

Yeah, that’s what I was doing.

Notice how the sticky thoughts in the middle of the paragraph are the ones that include a lot of "I"s, "shoulds" and problems to be solved.

Yes, it went from d.E. to the content of concepts and that’s where it got sticky. The pointer to stay with the experience of thought (not content) is helpful here.

It is a good exercise to do. Write a paragraph about what is happening right now, but use pronouns ( Eg I am typing, then I make a cup of tea, I think about no self, and then do some looking)

Then rewrite the paragraph without the "I"s ( typing is happening, walking to kitchen is happening, walking back to computer is happening, thoughts of no self happening, looking is happening)

Notice how each paragraph feels.

I will complete this and post it later.

Yes, this is key. Its just a thought saying "I want the I to disappear" or "I want thought to disappear". but because theres an I in there, it suddenly becomes important, and believed. Can we make thoughts stop? Try it. Describe what happens.

Wow, I didn’t even notice that there was a song playing in the back of my mind as I was typing all this. When I tried to make the song stop, it seemed to get louder. We can’t make thoughts stop, they just arise when they arise.

You also need to keep checking where these thoughts come from. Is there a self that is thinking about wanting thoughts to disappear? Or are these thoughts automatic and spontaneous?

Thoughts come from nowhere, no self can be located that thinks them, they are just automatic and spontaneous.

We dont need thoughts to stop, or disappear. We are just looking to see if thoughts about I are true.

Okay this is also helpful.

It sounds like there has been a bit of a pattern shift here. Keep up with the looking. Taking on a perspective of there not being a self can be useful, and is something other guides recommend. I am wary of recommending it because we need to actually see that there is no self, rather than assume there is no self, or pretend there is no self, but if you are finding it useful, keep on with it. Just remember, we need to check that it is true that there is no self. We dont want to turn it into another belief.

Thanks for the headsup. I think last night I was just playing with it, using the belief in no self as a jumping off point to investigate d.E. Yes, I don’t want to turn this into another belief and I know that it’s a trap. Direct experience is key.

Thanks Neil, you’ve been extremely helpful so far.

[Don]

Hi Neil,

I didn't do the exercise as you and asked (e.g. rewrite the first paragraph). I just did the exercise twice, one using "I" and one without. It is a really good exercise showing how language is a key component of how the belief in a self is created. I noticed that with the first paragraph it felt like there was actually a self that was doing or noticing everything. While doing the second paragraph things felt lighter, meditative in a way. Here's the exercise:

I am typing. I hear the sound of the fan. I am thinking of what to type next. I am sitting here, waiting. I am correcting a typo. I am making my cheek move. I am looking at the cursor. I am hearing the sound of the keyboard as I type. I feel the wind from the fan against my skin. I swallow. I see a blinking light. I hear ringing in my ears. I see lights from my laptop flickering. I am aware of many of these things in the room and feelings in my body. I reach up to adjust my eyeglasses. I lick the bottom of my lip. I am thinking.

Rubbing of leg is happening. Typing is happening. The sound of the fan is happening. The sound of ringing in the ears is happening. Correcting a typo is happening. Seeing flickering lights is happening. The sound of keys on the keyboard being pressed is happening. The feel of the keyboard keys being pressed is happening. Looking is happening. Breathing is happening. Thinking is happening.

Very cool exercise, thanks!

[neeeel]

Rubbing of leg is happening. Typing is happening. The sound of the fan is happening. The sound of ringing in the ears is happening. Correcting a typo is happening. Seeing flickering lights is happening. The sound of keys on the keyboard being pressed is happening. The feel of the keyboard keys being pressed is happening. Looking is happening. Breathing is happening. Thinking is happening.

Very cool exercise, thanks!

You could take this even further, further from concepts.

Hand moving on leg, hand moving on keyboard, sound of fan, sound of ringing in ears, hand moving on keyboard, sound of keys being pressed, feel of keyboard, looking, breathing, thoughts arising.

or even further to

movement and sensation, sound, sound, movement and sensation, sound, sensation, perception of shapes and colours, sensation, thoughts.


It might be interesting to do the same excersise with a "sticky" situation. Eg a conflict at work, or a time when you were upset about something. I think it highlights how thoughts build up a story about what is happening. While the story may be true, it also may not be.

Think about the story of your life. Now think about how someone else ( your parents, a friend, etc) would tell your story. Would they be the same story? Whose story would be the correct one?

[Don]

Thanks for the alternative exercises.

Think about the story of your life. Now think about how someone else ( your parents, a friend, etc) would tell your story. Would they be the same story? Whose story would be the correct one?

They definitely would not be the same story! It's all just opinion so no one's story would be the correct one.

Today I observed how choices were made without a "me" involved. It was strange, like watching a reality TV show. I ended up having to clean up some else's mess tonight and usually I get very pissed off when I have to do someone else's chores. A whole bunch of thoughts came up, like how I shouldn't get mad (because anger is not "spiritual"), or how unfair it was, and all these thoughts started battling against each other. Then I realized that I didn't have a choice in how I was going to react, so I just let the frustration be and the thoughts come and go, watching it all, and after I was done with the chore I wasn't holding on to the story and I felt fine afterwards. Usually I hold on to the story, but when "I" got out of the way and just watched the show things were released much quicker.

I will use the above exercise you gave me to work on the whole chore situation and see what I come up with. Hope you're having a good day Neil.

[neeeel]

hey, whats happening?

[Don]

Lately I've been switching my attention from the content of thought to the thinking process and tracing thought back to see if there was/is an "I" that was/is doing the thinking. My expectations of what's supposed to happen during this process or how long this is supposed to take have relaxed, as I realize that this isn't a race and that you will stay with me until this is done and as long as I continue to look.

[neeeel]

Lately I've been switching my attention from the content of thought to the thinking process and tracing thought back to see if there was/is an "I" that was/is doing the thinking. My expectations of what's supposed to happen during this process or how long this is supposed to take have relaxed, as I realize that this isn't a race and that you will stay with me until this is done and as long as I continue to look.

Ok, keep up with the looking. It might help me give some more pointers if you describe how you are looking and what you are looking at? Remember also to take a look at the other senses.

Can you find the self that switches the attention?

[Don]

Ok, keep up with the looking. It might help me give some more pointers if you describe how you are looking and what you are looking at? Remember also to take a look at the other senses.

Thoughts arise and mind instantly attaches to the content of the thoughts, then the thought to look at the process of thinking arises and the switch from content to process happens. There is looking, tension in the body arising, thought arising, an okayness and relaxation with the whole process, with looking just happening. With sight, it's like everything in the field of vision is saturated with consciousness. In d.E., it's the same with sound. With sound, it's effortless, no "I" needed to hear, just the sound of the birds outside chirping without an "I" listening to it. The sound of the wind flowing through the leaves in the trees outside. The sound of a jet plane coming and going . Attention, guided by the direction to look at the other senses, turns to physical sensation. Vibrations of sensation in the chest. Sensations of breathing at the nostrils. The rising and falling of the chest. Long exhale.

Can you find the self that switches the attention?

Right now the "no self code" that has been inserted into the mindstream program during this process is what switches the attention, no self involved. Simple cause and effect at play. Reality is this vast, dynamic interplay of all these causes and effects. Everything is included. All that arises in experience, even the "I" belief and the looking at the "I"belief, is a part of this stream of causes and effects.

[neeeel]

So is there a self, in any way, shape or form?

[Don]

So is there a self, in any way, shape or form?

There is no self. When I first encountered the idea of no self, it was through Buddhism and anatta. I never really understood what no self meant until coming here. In the past there was confusion about how to realize no self in direct experience. The idea that it was only something one could realize through years and years of formal sitting practice was a huge obstacle for me, and with this process it's almost effortless once you get the pointers on how and where to look. What I really appreciate is that you can do it anytime and anywhere, especially since my formal meditation practice is not consistent. I think the statement that this process starts off with, that there never was, is, or will be a self was something I had never encountered before and is one of the many things that is unique about this process. It caused a major shift of perspective for me. Such a powerful statement and invitation to inquire into my own direct experience.

[neeeel]

so give me a bit of a rant about how things are for you now. whats the same, if anything? whats different, if anything?
what is "enlightenment"? Is there such a thing? Assuming that you were seeking something by doing formal meditation, what were you seeking, and have you found it?
give me as much as you can, on anything you think is relevant
thanks

[Don]

Hi Neil,

so give me a bit of a rant about how things are for you now.

whats the same, if anything? whats different, if anything?

I am not sure how to describe the place that I'm in right now. I cannot tell whether this is all still conceptual or a direct experience / deep knowing. What feels different is that the process still seems to be working through me, moving from a conceptual standpoint towards more and more of a sense of certainty. There is a lot of doubt here, probably related to all of the spiritual concepts and expectations regarding the "spiritual path" that I've accumulated through the years. Now I understand how someone coming to this without a background in the whole spiritual thing might have an easier time with the process (less to deconstruct?).

I guess for such a long time I had this belief that the direct experience of no self was supposed to be this mind shattering, big bang, ultra blissful experience, or something that only comes about through much practice. I am reminded of your statement that I am already having a direct experience of no self, and my whole life has been a direct experience of no self. Can it be this simple and easy?

what is "enlightenment"? Is there such a thing?

Honestly I have no idea what enlightenment is anymore. There are so many spiritual traditions with their own ideas of what enlightenment is that I don't know how to answer your question.

Assuming that you were seeking something by doing formal meditation, what were you seeking, and have you found it?

I got into Buddhism because of dukkha. I have a history of depression and heard that Buddhism was about the end of dukkha, so that's what got me into meditation. There is still dukkha present, but there is less clinging to it as "my" dukkha. Depression is seen as one of the mental states this body/mind pattern has manifested, but it is taken less personally now. To me this means a lot.