Thread for Bigred

[Douglita]

Dear Lalita,

I got to your post late and am tired now so will reply tomorrow. I hope you have a lovely day at the coast and 'birding' tomorrow. Relaxing and reading sound perfect :-)

Sleep well,

D x

[Douglita]

Doubt and confidence relate to what I wrote,slightly considered,shooting from the hip,as at first I didn't know ,this area of confidence and establishment,on my part, and being dependent on your pointing,not convinced i can point for myself,or am I trying to run before I can walk,still feel I'm walzing around on the pole with seeing,.Thats how it feels.
[/quote]

Can you tell me what your expectations are around realisation of no-self? Maybe if you could articulate what you think it would 'look like' or what you might hope for out of this it would help to clarify things…

I'm sure you're well aware that this is not about being 100 foot high up a pole, but neither is it about a state of grounded, poised equanimity, constant mindfulness, positivity or bliss, because it is not about being in - or even trying to get into - a particular state, even if it is true that by seeing no 'doer of the deed' should cause many packs of cards to come tumbling down…

When the non-existence of ‘me’ is seen, this has consequences – behaviours that are currently supported by the me-belief begin to modify, some gradually, some maybe quite radically. But to take it that the fact that these kinds of behaviours or states of mind (‘selfing’ for short) are still happening demonstrates that self-view hasn’t been seen through is missing the point, or looking in the wrong place. What needs pointing out about these things?

No need to be discouraged, because you're doing great! Remember ' no-self' is always already here, in this - THIS (whatever you can directly experience right now) :-)

How is 'willing' trickier than 'deciding' or 'controlling'? I'm interested in the distinction you made there...How does Lalita will things to happen?

Love,

D x

[Auk]

hi Douglita,
well I awoke this morning and thought maybe there isn't a 100ft pole,and no lalita waltzing around on top !
also only,almost not even a smidgen of resistance to going on line.

I have a great day,rich and saw a Hobby always wanted to see one and saw one hunting for about 15 mins,its flight is spellbinding and entralling.

I have one of the best days of my life.I don't think there is a 100ft pole and am rather tired.i need to digest your email and read more carefully,and appreciate your thorougghness..Only tiredness and feel fine.

I feel I can relax now,the nervousness and apprehension seemed to have shrivelled up,or almost, so all to the good.

,Great,Many thanks,
lalita

[Auk]

Good morning Douglita,
WOW ,great and thank you...

Can you tell me what your expectations are around realisation of no-self? Maybe if you could articulate what you think it would 'look like' or what you might hope for out of this it would help to clarify things…

Expectations....Well in the past 2 or since friday night things have been changing,re expectations...I realised I HAD,expectations that how I saw the world,acted,lived would change redically,possibly have nice bright,colourful dreams,great meditations...these were all nicely tucked away and since rose to the fore and seeing that there isn't a 100ft pole and no laita waltzing around on top...the expectations are shrivelling up,I wouldn't say they have gone completely,but its more like things as they are,I am not trying not to have expectations,
just live life as it comes and how it comes. It reminds me the first time I went to Buddha Gaya and expected flashing likes etc etc ,big experiences and all it was was this shoddy dirty noisey village in Bihar.Later things changed,not that I ever had any big experiences but 'experiences' that were in a way very quiet almost non experience,which doesn't make sense ....but made me consider my life,attitude in a different way...which is sort of happening now.I expected one thing ,as it were, and got what I wanted but not in the form I expected.

Now I'm happy I don't know and take each day as it comes,I feel much more at ease,and relaxed,life is as it is.

but neither is it about a state of grounded, poised equanimity, constant mindfulness, positivity or bliss, because it is not about being in - or even trying to get into - a particular state, even if it is true that by seeing no 'doer of the deed' should cause many packs of cards to come tumbling down…

Thanks,i think this is actually happening and not in the fire and lights show that I expected,but much quieter,undramatic,like a sea washing in and through...

How is 'willing' trickier than 'deciding' or 'controlling'? I'm interested in the distinction you made there...How does Lalita will things to happen?

In a way I am not sure,possibly because it has been a strong habit of mine in the past ,to push through,I'm not even sure it applies now.

I 'll consider more through the day here and there.

i hope that your having a lovely weekend,
and many many thanks,
lalita

[Douglita]

Dear Lalita,

Good to read about your relaxed and happy day - seeing the Hobby - fantastic!

Yes relaxation and enjoyment is good - essential even.

Let's not forget focus along with the relaxation. The pattern of someone offering pointers and the other person answering them from experience only works if the process is quite focussed. What can help for some people is not to 'pop in' to the questions throughout the day but to actually set 'aside' 15 minutes of the day (or twice at different times if you can), perhaps after breakfast, in a break after lunch or before bed - whenever works for you, and use that time solely to look at my questions and answer them. If you need more relaxation in order to focus better or create a 'line' between the day's doings and this then maybe it could help to just sit or follow a few breaths for a while before answering, in order to create a 'space' between whatever else was going on before and the now …but then answer those questions directly and ONLY from your direct experience. Speculation and thoughts that may arise out of the question can be an interesting 'sideshow' to be included if you like, but the only thing likely to push you through with this is an intent focus on your direct experience.

only,almost not even a smidgen of resistance to going on line.

I feel I can relax now,the nervousness and apprehension seemed to have shrivelled up,or almost, so all to the good.

I notice you have mentioned nervousness, resistance etc. in almost every post between us so far (whether in terms of it's presence or absence), so if it is here please let it be here and we can look at it. Fear itself is not to be feared. It’s a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out.

Two days ago, when I questioned: "Can you gently approach that nervousness and resisting, look behind it and find out what it is protecting? "

You said:

Change.Acceptance of things as they are,a reluctance to embracethis newness/difference.

It took me a while to pick you up on this one (so no worries if you have to come back to it later when the nervousness may appear again to you!), but your answer sounded more like thoughts - ideas - to me than your experience, so let's have another look. Look at fear (or, if it's subtle, that not even a smidgen of, that shrivelled up, almost gone nervousness and just let it be here. Find where in the body it is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It’s fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind the fear.

Tell me what happens.

Love,

D x

[Douglita]

Ah your last post re expectations crossed over with mine :-)

Thanks,i think this is actually happening and not in the fire and lights show that I expected,but much quieter,undramatic,like a sea washing in and through...

Beautifully put…great that you are not even trying to expect, but it can be useful to unpick what expectations may be remainingif you notice them in conflict with what actually is...

It reminds me the first time I went to Buddha Gaya and expected flashing likes etc etc ,big experiences and all it was was this shoddy dirty noisey village in Bihar.Later things changed,not that I ever had any big experiences but 'experiences' that were in a way very quiet almost non experience,which doesn't make sense ....but made me consider my life,attitude in a different way...which is sort of happening now.I expected one thing ,as it were, and got what I wanted but not in the form I expected.

I love this description of how your expectations shifted in a similar way to your Buddha Gaya and 'dirty noisy city' experience! You may like this other type of analogy... When someone first sees a rainbow, they would naturally assume that it really exists at some location in space, so they'll assume, for example, that it must be possible to travel to its base. You could say that they suffer from the 'illusion of rainbow'. Once they understand that it is a trick of light, they'll realise that it is impossible to get to 'the end of the rainbow' ... you could say that they have 'seen through the illusion of rainbow'. The thing is, they can still see the rainbow.

When it comes to the illusion of self, people often assume that, having seen through the illusion, all the 'sense of self' will vanish, perhaps one will be permanently in the kind of 'self forgetting' state that characterises artistic creation, or something .... However, in practice, all the experiences that made up one's "sense of self" can still come and go as they did before, it is just that now, there is the knowledge that there is no entity 'behind' the experience. Before, the 'sense of self' was believed to be a real self; after, the 'sense of self' is known to be just part of the flux of experience.

....So there you have another take on 'Buddha Gaya and the dirty noisy city.

Re willing, you said:

because it has been a strong habit of mine in the past ,to push through,I'm not even sure it applies now.

Ok just have a look again to see how it applies (if at all). Do you decide things and direct yourself one way or another (look at the process of willing or deciding anything today. Willing and deciding happen, but do 'you' push 'yourself' through to do (whatever it is)? Is there an agent behind the willing and deciding?

Love,

D x

[Auk]

Dear Douglita,
Thank you,
I have resolved to get on the computer as soon as I get home, not dip in and out during the day, though some days it will be a bit late, 9.30 ish my time. And give myself to your questions then and there.

When it comes to the illusion of self, people often assume that, having seen through the illusion, all the 'sense of self' will vanish, perhaps one will be permanently in the kind of 'self forgetting' state that characterises artistic creation, or something .... However, in practice, all the experiences that made up one's "sense of self" can still come and go as they did before, it is just that now, there is the knowledge that there is no entity 'behind' the experience. Before, the 'sense of self' was believed to be a real self; after, the 'sense of self' is known to be just part of the flux of experience.

Thanks , this makes things clearer especially around a 'kind of self forgetting state' ,I can see that swimming around inside my thoughts and imagination, and very helpful.

Ok just have a look again to see how it applies (if at all). Do you decide things and direct yourself one way or another (look at the process of willing or deciding anything today. Willing and deciding happen, but do 'you' push 'yourself' through to do (whatever it is)? Is there an agent behind the willing and deciding?

I do decide things but due to a net of conditions,it is like hearing and what is heard the two are not distinct, the decision is related /part of the conditions and 'I think' there is a decider,that fusion of self referencing thoughts..So no separate agent who decides.

Willing: This is the energy of the decision,it isn't actually anything separate.

Do I push myself through? No.This is what willing has ,in the past felt like,me directing my energy,to achieve things that I didn't want to do,but needed to be done, more strongly felt when I didn't want to do them . It is effort. It is no more than effort. And no person behind this. Effort or willing are related and bound up with the conditions, what is happening ,and not separate from them,therefore no I directing from behind.

lalita.

Just going back to your previous email where they crossed yesterday

[Auk]

Hi Douglita,
I will do my best to get on in the morning as well,so will aim for twice a day,definitely once.

it could help to just sit or follow a few breaths for a while before answering, in order to create a 'space' between whatever else was going on before and the now …but then answer those questions directly and ONLY from your direct experience. Speculation and thoughts that may arise out of the question can be an interesting 'sideshow' to be included if you like, but the only thing likely to push you through with this is an intent focus on your direct experience.

Thanks.I keep slipping from direct pointing into sideshows , hadn't realised I was .


[quote)Two days ago, when I questioned: "Can you gently approach that nervousness and resisting, look behind it and find out what it is protecting? "

You said:

Change.Acceptance of things as they are,a reluctance to embracethis newness/difference.



It took me a while to pick you up on this one (so no worries if you have to come back to it later when the nervousness may appear again to you!), but your answer sounded more like thoughts - ideas - to me than your experience, so let's have another look. Look at fear (or, if it's subtle, that not even a smidgen of, that shrivelled up, almost gone nervousness and just let it be here. Find where in the body it is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It’s fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind the fear.[/quote]

Anxiety ,right now,. In the body lower stomach also the knees the anxiety is around ,am I doing this right?.Hot feet,and a touch of laughter.
This sort of investiagtion, 'bring it closer,invite it to share its wisdom ' has in the past always been very difficult,and sort of double dutch.'

I'll check later and in the morning,

lalita

[Douglita]

Hi Lalita,

have resolved to get on the computer as soon as I get home, not dip in and out during the day, though some days it will be a bit late, 9.30 ish my time. And give myself to your questions then and there.

Great. I think that will make for an easier 'working ground'. There may be a time lag in answering with any later posts as I'm on Central European Time, so I may have to answer nighttime postings the next morning.

Thanks.I keep slipping from direct pointing into sideshows , hadn't realised I was .

Yes this is important distinction to make. This is a kind of dance, a dialogue between direct experience and direct pointing. Your working ground here is to look in direct experience (DE for short) which is something that is happening through perception channels. So the idea is to examine from and with the very stuff 'we' are made of, the five aggregates (skandhas) of form, feeling, thought, choice and consciousness –to see how their aggregate continuity creates the illusion of a permanent and substantial self-existence.

There is experience of thinking too, but the content of thought, like 'very difficult', 'right/wrong' is not direct experience; it's thoughts ABOUT experience, stories, fiction. Remember that a label is not an entity, a name is not a thing. The word table is not an experience of table.

I do decide things but due to a net of conditions,it is like hearing and what is heard the two are not distinct, the decision is related /part of the conditions and 'I think' there is a decider,that fusion of self referencing thoughts..So no separate agent who decides.

Willing: This is the energy of the decision,it isn't actually anything separate.

What you say above reads as contradictory or a bit like those magic tricks that go nicely with the phrase: 'Now you see it, now you don't!'

* Side note * This could just be a case of language gumming up comprehension between us - producing apparent contradictions when there are none. It's worth keeping your language as precise and clear as possible here or it may lead to me badgering you unnecessarily on something that is plain as day to you! So feel free to be as expansive as you want, but give me fully written, complete sentences in plain English with no abbreviations and little, or better still, no slang terms or figures of speech, as the all of the latter can impede comprehension.

So the contradiction I am pointing to is that you say you see there is no separate agent, yet you also say

I do decide things but due to a net of conditions

. What is this 'I' that decides things due to a net of conditions?

Can you actually find this 'I'? Can you see a puppet master? Is there anything that makes things happen or is it language that assumes there is an 'I'?

This is critical in investigation so use any opportunity for taking a look again in everyday normal tasks too: can you experience a doer? When In the shower, eating, walking, working, sitting, talking, is there a puppet that moves when strings are pulled? Are you the actor inside the body that moves the body around and reads and types words now on the computer?

Take a close look.

Anxiety ,right now,. In the body lower stomach also the knees the anxiety is around ,am I doing this right?.Hot feet,and a touch of laughter.
This sort of investiagtion, 'bring it closer,invite it to share its wisdom ' has in the past always been very difficult,and sort of double dutch.'

Ok, You were beginning to experience fear in your lower stomach and knees - yes you were in the 'right' place in terms of our investigation - then you had memories and thoughts about 'am I doing this right', 'very difficult' and 'double dutch' . However, going with these memory and thoughts seemed to be where the experiencing was cut off and distraction set in.

You're right that 'inviting fear', 'getting close to', 'respecting' 'looking behind' etc. are kind of double-dutch, but intended as metaphors for a gentle approach to being in your direct experience with fear, which can be a slippery customer but is important to face. Another way of approaching it - if thoughts insist on having their say or take focus away - is to use thinking itself to enter. So when you become aware of anxiety about this process, you know that the mind tends to distract itself away from the anxiety and the “hunting.” Look directly at the anxiety and pinpoint its message. is it “if there is no self, i will disappear?” or “Without a self, i will cease to exist?” sometimes it’s “Without a self, nothing will get done.” check and find out what the anxiety is. Then ask, “is it true?”

So, as you sit there in front of your screen, I want to first ask you to move towards a bit of general awareness by attending to your next six breaths. There's no need for any deep absorption; just a relative calm, and a relative leaving behind of what you were last doing, a sense that we are about to enter into an enquiry in a spirit of openness and kindly awareness together.

Tell me your response to these questions:

Is there an entity doing and being or just sensation of being, aliveness, never off, always here now?

What is the fear about losing the illusion of self?

D x

[Auk]

Hi Douglita,
The past few days since I relaxed I have been struggling to 'get back on board'. I finally feel like I am awake again,even though a car alarm woke me at around 3.30.Considering this I have felt I became relaxed and more importantly intoxicated,even at thinking I was through the gate, and lost focus,well and truly.I have been investigating my experience. Who has lost touch? No one. The whole sequence has been a drama ,has been a play different actors, thinking they were real,a story that believed itself,a stream of experiences and thought patterns,some nestling,taking root in dreamland/a little god realm .I see this more clearly now compared to then.As well as considering who this I is now,in that statement

Through the latter half of today I have found direct pointing biting.I have had several strong incidences through the day,where I have investigated; Who is getting angry? Where is the agent behind this anger.No one.There had been a strong stimulus,a dreadful email ( You can have the content if you wish,but I think you don't need it), and a whole flow and story developed.Which I unpicked,and looked at and through.

The process of direct pointing has been more marked and meaningful,active and alive,whereas for a couple of days previously that process of direct pointing,had felt in contrast dreary and I haven't been able to get hold of direct pointing,or see at all,its been more like fog. Now I find myself investigating that statement;' I haven't been able to get hold of it' and trying to find the I.It is a different way of looking !It is such a relief.

Ok I say ; 'I feel awake' (opening paragraph on this post) and I also investigate this, because ;where is the I behind this process of being awake ?,or the where is the I behind the feeling ? There isn't one..There is feeling,sharpness,clarity,on the ball ness and no I,no agent,and there is looking, and that looking isn't a thing.

Now I'll read and answer your questions,in your email.

Many thanks,I hope this goes some way of clarifying ,the past few posting since Friday night,lalita

[Auk]

Hi Douglita,
Thank you for staying with me.

This is a kind of dance, a dialogue between direct experience and direct pointing. Your working ground here is to look in direct experience (DE for short) which is something that is happening through perception channels. So the idea is to examine from and with the very stuff 'we' are made of, the five aggregates (skandhas) of form, feeling, thought, choice and consciousness –to see how their aggregate continuity creates the illusion of a permanent and substantial self-existence.(quote).

Very clear and very helpful description of the process. There are pinnacle moments when seeing is more like this process of seeing the aggregate continuity happening,which is all the time,rising and falling..ie,the aggregate continuity.

There is experience of thinking too, but the content of thought, like 'very difficult', 'right/wrong' is not direct experience; it's thoughts ABOUT experience, stories, fiction. Remember that a label is not an entity, a name is not a thing. The word table is not an experience of table.

This is a very good and clear distinction for me,that CONTENT ,is not direct experience ,that content is ABOUT the experience and not the experience itself.

Thank you.

I do decide things but due to a net of conditions,it is like hearing and what is heard the two are not distinct, the decision is related /part of the conditions and 'I think' there is a decider,that fusion of self referencing thoughts..So no separate agent who decides.

Willing: This is the energy of the decision,it isn't actually anything separate.



What you say above reads as contradictory or a bit like those magic tricks that go nicely with the phrase: 'Now you see it, now you don't!'

* Side note * This could just be a case of language gumming up comprehension between us - producing apparent contradictions when there are none. It's worth keeping your language as precise and clear as possible here or it may lead to me badgering you unnecessarily on something that is plain as day to you! So feel free to be as expansive as you want, but give me fully written, complete sentences in plain English with no abbreviations and little, or better still, no slang terms or figures of speech, as the all of the latter can impede comprehension.

So the contradiction I am pointing to is that you say you see there is no separate agent, yet you also say

I do decide things but due to a net of conditions

. What is this 'I' that decides things due to a net of conditions?

Can you actually find this 'I'? Can you see a puppet master? Is there anything that makes things happen or is it language that assumes there is an 'I'?

All of your points taken.At least and I am undertaking to stand by them,which should make both our lives easier.

I have been investigating decisions and a number of different feelings,thoughts,attitudes,through the day,actions...There is no agent behind decisions,there is/are thought processes which take on , or absorb the mantle of self;lalita,and this changes in relationship and is part of the flux of conditions .

Decisions grow out of what is happening, an email, car alarm, cycle ride,how i apply myself at work,these are all 'created' from the past as well as influenced changed by what is happening in the present,which shapes future predispositions.

No.I cannot see a puppet master in this process of decisions.

(quote) Is there anything that makes this happen or is language that assumes there is an 'I'. (quote)

The creation of the puppet master arises from habit,false assumptions around the nature of experience through not seeing how things really are,language is part of that process of misunderstanding and misappropriation of experience .

This is critical in investigation so use any opportunity for taking a look again in everyday normal tasks too: can you experience a doer? When In the shower, eating, walking, working, sitting, talking, is there a puppet that moves when strings are pulled? Are you the actor inside the body that moves the body around and reads and types words now on the computer?

Take a close look.

This process ,of investigation in and through my life,I have already started and will be continuing,as it gives,breathes a sense of aliveness and relief,clarity and a kind of brightness,that might just be another word for aliveness.

The puppet in the shower,is a body,born from decisions without a decider pulling from above.The body is moved
by the water,by a culture of cleanliness ,work and pleasure,a flux of thoughts,desires,aspirations.

Ok.i think this is me tonight.

Just quickly one last

What is the fear about losing the illusion of self?

At times like these no fear at all.

I will address the last couple of points tomorrow.

Good night,lalita

P.S. I hope I have tidied up all my sentences, I do see the importance, and value that myself

Thanks for your patience and staying alongside,it is a kindness and appreciated

[Douglita]

I am more pushed for time this morning so I won't pick up everything you've said and press the quote button on them Lalita, but just to say you do seem to have a much clearer seeing, which is lovely to read.

Yes I am sure 'Me' will reappear, as you noticed it popping into the shower along with the body ;-) but 'selfing' - that coalescence of conditions that can easily lead on to attributing an identity - will always still arise. You saw it happening though, which is what makes the difference.
Just to pick this bit up for now, however:

Decisions grow out of what is happening, an email, car alarm, cycle ride,how i apply myself at work,these are all 'created' from the past as well as influenced changed by what is happening in the present,which shapes future predispositions."


What you wrote there describes a process well yet reads more as speculation and thoughts than from direct experience.

You said clearly earlier in the post that you found no 'puppet master' of decisions and choices, although I would like to push you a little further in regard to the question I posed yesterday, which was "Is there an entity doing and being or just sensation of being, aliveness, never off, always here now?"

Are you ever aware of a decision being made at a moment in time or are there just thoughts arising about decisions and actions happening?

D x

[Auk]

Hi Douglita,
I just clipped a key and lost my reply,hey ho.Ah well....and I had almost finished replying.Whoops.

Are you ever aware of a decision being made at a moment in time or are there just thoughts arising about decisions and actions happening?

No.I am not aware of a decision being made at a particular moment in time.A couple of weeks ago I would have given a resounding yes to this,but not now. All decisions are bound up with whatever is happening,or are influenced by past experience .Decisions aren't separate.

I hadn't answered your email fully last night,as i was getting very tired.I did leap ahead to answer the 'fear question at the end.I will go over those questions from yesterday .now in a new email,as i have been logged in a long time and have no wish to loose another email,

lalita

[Douglita]

Hi Lalita,

Thanks for that and sorry you lost your reply! I find it's safer to write on something like 'word' or whatever you normally use to write on and save, then cut and paste that into the LU thread. These pages sometimes 'time out' and you can then lose what you've been writing - as you've just discovered :-(. Good night :-)
D x

[Douglita]

Hi Lalita,

How are you doing? As your last post didn't make it, I wondered if we could engage in a few simple Direct Experience exercises in the next wee while. If you manage this one today please report back on it and I'll give you more to follow on:

I’m going to ask you to get right into your experience of the moment. Try this exercise. Sit in a chair and bring awareness to all the contact points your body has with the chair and the floor. Feel the sense of pressure in your feet, move up to the pressure in the backside and the back. Close your eyes and focus just on the raw experience – ignore the ‘inner picture’ that has constructed the experience as ‘my body sitting in a chair’. Can you feel where the body ends and floor/chair begins or is the experience itself seamless? Without using thought – before thought intervenes – what is the nature of the experience? Where is the experience taking place? What are its qualities? Is there a ‘centre’ to this experience? Is there a ‘thing’ separate from the sensations that the experience is ‘happening to’? When thought tries to intervene, don’t follow it, allow awareness to remain in the raw experience. Do this several times for at least ten minutes. Report back what you find.

Love,

D x