Requesting a guide

[Anotherway2b]

I, self and Simon are words or labels. They can be brought into awareness at my choosing.

Ok, I'm experiencing a little disappointment with myself! It's clear I'm just getting half of the idea. So, there is no self, therefore there is no me or I to choose when this very concept comes in or goes out of awareness.

What is happening instead? Is there simply no choosing at all? They are just happening? Thoughts, imagination other processes - they just happen? There is no thinker, no imaginer - these are just mental processes occurring in the here and now?

How is a choice made in direct experience?

A choice is made after a weighing up of the pros and cons of an idea and a summation of the evidence. But this depends on the choice. Sometimes my 'I' has more say, sometimes it is forced more on me. It depends, no? Sorry to split hairs. I think you are going to say they just happen and we go with the the flow. Could you explain more about this please?

I'm really sorry but I need to shoot off for a week now so I'll be unable to reply for a while. I really appreciate what you are doing for me. Are there any particular questions are can put my mind to while I'm away?

Thank you for your help.

Simon.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

I'm really sorry I wasn't able to get back to you yesterday before you left for your camping trip.

I hope you have a good time. Relax and be with direct experience as much as you can. Just watch how things happen around you effortlessly.

Don't worry about the disappointment! This is a process not a one time event, and it takes as long as it takes. I'll be here until you get to see through the illusion.

We'll pick up where we left when you come back.

Much love
Silvia x

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia

I hope this posts finds you well.

I have returned from my break. It would be great to resume whenever you have the time.

Things are good. I have been trying to soak up as much direct experience as poss! My wife and I went on a few beautiful walks. The weather was good most of the time.

I definitely feel different to how I felt before I began this process. I wouldn't say that there's been a snap in the way thinking happens for me but the way I relate to experience does feel as if its altered. I feel able to take more of a step back when feelings are experienced. There isn't a strong sense of ownership to them. They come and they go. The same goes when my mind turns to the past or future. There's a stronger ability to ground myself into the present moment. Kind of in control knowing I'm not in control??

Best wishes,

Simon.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

Wellcome back! I'm glad you had a good time.

We were looking at choice before you left, so let's pick up from there.

You said,

I have been trying to soak up as much direct experience as poss!

So look back at your camping trip and those times in the last few days when you were trying to soak up in direct experience.

Consider these questions;

Can you remember when the choice to pay attention to direct experience happened?

What happened first the decision or the thought that said, I'm going to do this?
How did you make the decision happen?

What does trying mean?
Can you describe what trying feels like?
Did you succeed everytime you "tried"? Why not? If you are in control of your attention, how comes you weren't always successful?

What about the times you forgot you were supposed to do that?
What about the times you remembered?
Did you chose when to forget and when to remember? Did you have any control over the process of remembering to pay attention?

Let me know what comes up.

S xx

[The-Song-Of-Me]

I'm experiencing a little disappointment with myself!

What is this self that you are disappointed with? ;-)
How can you be disappointed with something that doesn't exist?
If there is no separate you, then what feels disappointment?
What is disappointment? What does it point to?

Lots of questions today!
Take your time, and remember to answer only from what you see in direct experience.

x

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia

Thanks for your questions. Here goes:

Can you remember when the choice to pay attention to direct experience happened?

I don't think a choice to pay attention was made. Paying attention just seemed to happen. The weather was good, the landscape was beautiful and the company was just right. I often recalled your suggestion to relax and be with direct experience. Following this there was a focusing of attention and some thoughts to the nature of 'I need to make the most of this' - particularly as it was our last holiday away for a while.

What happened first the decision or the thought that said, I'm going to do this?

Reflecting on it I think it was more about the thought 'I'm going to do this' then the behaviour of actually doing it. A decision is a thought in itself though isn't it?

How did you make the decision happen?

I tried appreciating what was around me more. I tried making the most of my different senses - vision, touch, taste, smell etc. There was a heightening of concentration. We brought a new camera before we left so occasionally I took a photo to capture certain moments. Any thoughts about the future or the past were less of a trouble to me. They have lost most of their ability to create difficulty I think.

What does trying mean?
Can you describe what trying feels like?
Did you succeed everytime you "tried"? Why not? If you are in control of your attention, how comes you weren't always successful?

I'm curious about why you are asking this. Trying for me means making effort, persisting and persevering. It means keeping going, remaining determined. Having something obtainable in mind and pushing yourself until you get to where you want to be. I definitely have not succeeded every time I've tried. And that's ok. I'm no perfectionist. But I do have resilience and I am determined. Sometimes things just go against me. Things outside of my control. That's ok, there is not that much I can do about any of it sometimes. That's just the way it is. Maybe I've been 'trying' too hard with this process? Maybe I just need to be more accepting of the way things are. But in contrast I think that to see through the illusion requires some trying and effort to see things for what they really are.

What about the times you forgot you were supposed to do that?
What about the times you remembered?
Did you choose when to forget and when to remember? Did you have any control over the process of remembering to pay attention?

When these times occurred was outside of my control. Forgetting and remembering was something that just happened. There wasn't any control over the process of remembering to pay attention. It was something that just happened. If wasn't in attention then it didn't happen, it wasn't thought about, it wasn't worried about. If it was in attention it did happen. I'm beginning to see that I have less control than what I actually think!

What is this self that you are disappointed with? ;-) How can you be disappointed with something that doesn't exist?
If there is no separate you, then what feels disappointment?
What is disappointment? What does it point to?

I know. Sorry this was a bit of a play on words. I am struggling a bit though with describing the impact of feelings and experience without using the word 'I'. I assert that the way I relate to the idea of self and 'I' has altered. It's changed from how it used to be. I just can't stop using the word 'I' and 'self' in sentences! That's ok isn't it?

The disappointment happened because I thought I had grasped the crux of what this process was all about but in the end it turned out that I hadn't. This was probably tied in with the 'trying' thoughts described above. Disappointment was experienced but then it went away. I'm a little muddled... Should I expect difficult feelings such as this to go away and never be experienced? I understand it to be that feelings, positive and negative, will always happen and it is just the way I relate to them will alter. Elaboration on this would be useful.

Thanks for your time,

Simon.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

Apologies for the delay. Very busy weekend. I hope you had a good one.

You said

I'm curious about why you are asking this. Trying for me means making effort, persisting and persevering. It means keeping going, remaining determined. Having something obtainable in mind and pushing yourself until you get to where you want to be. I definitely have not succeeded every time I've tried. And that's ok. I'm no perfectionist. But I do have resilience and I am determined. Sometimes things just go against me. Things outside of my control. That's ok, there is not that much I can do about any of it sometimes. That's just the way it is.

If there is no self, what is it that tries, persists or perseveres?
Words like trying, effort, succeed, fail.. all imply an existing separate self, who has at least a certain amount of control over its actions. But are, what we call, actions the result of a self making those things happen?

Try this exercise. Place two items of food or drink on a table in front of you. Now chose which one to eat or drink. Take your time. Watch how the process happens. Pay attention to the feelings arising in the body and the thoughts. How did you make the decision of which item to eat or drink? A thought may say I'm going to eat this or even I made the decision. But can a thought think? Can a thought make a decision? You will have a lot of thoughts saying things, but just LOOK at what happens in direct experience, not what the thoughts say happens. If there is no self, can there be such a thing as choice?

S xx

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia,

Thanks for your message, hope things are okay.

But are, what we call, actions the result of a self making those things happen?

I tried the exercise you described. Thank you. I wish you were a fly on the wall. It was fun but I probably looked a little silly. I had in front of me two different pieces of food and a drink. I paused and just watched to see what happened. There was a little panic followed by thoughts like 'which one should I go for?' or 'this is weird'. I pondered and following this there was a little more deliberation. Different items began to appeal to my taste. But yes, in the end it just happened! No choice was made - I had something to drink. So yes, I get the picture. A thought can't make a decision. In the end what happens happens.

So, this understanding takes me to believe that so do other things in life where it seems there is a choice (buying a car, booking a holiday, ending or starting a relationship with someone). There is no self therefore there is no such thing as choice. Life just living life, right?

Simon

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

Things are good thank you. I'm about to start a new course and I'm very excited about it! :-)

You wrote,

A thought can't make a decision. In the end what happens happens.

So, this understanding takes me to believe that so do other things in life where it seems there is a choice (buying a car, booking a holiday, ending or starting a relationship with someone). There is no self therefore there is no such thing as choice. Life just living life, right?

That's right! There is no choice, because there never was a self to make a choice in the first place!

How does it make you feel to see this? It has some pretty deep implications and it can feel a bit daunting.

It can also happen that now it seems like "I" don't have any choice. I had for a bit an image of "me" living inside the body to whom things were happening to, with no control over them.

Silvia

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia,

Hope your course goes well. I like studying. It's been a while since I was at Uni and I do miss it from time to time.

It feels quite refreshing. Kind of like there is a separateness? I can identify with that. Understanding that there is no choice because there is no 'I' that makes it is a challenge to previously held beliefs. Knowing this is compelling. Like other things that have come to light since this process began, previously held 'taken for granted' beliefs have been questioned. It's great! Yes the experience is a little weird. Thoughts have been flipped around. But the knowing of this is much more positive than negative. It's liberating!

Best wishes,

Simon.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

It feels quite refreshing. Kind of like there is a separateness?

Where is the separateness? Could you explain this a bit?

Understanding that there is no choice because there is no 'I' that makes it is a challenge to previously held beliefs.

When you say understanding, do you mean an intellectual understanding , or an experiential realisation?; "seeing" clearly in your own direct experience that there is not self and no choice? Sorry if this seems like nitpicking, but it's good to make sure the investigation is moving beyond thoughts and theories.

Does it feel like, yes, it's seen clearly that there is no separate self? If not, what are the sticking points? What is still getting in the way of seeing this as opposed as understanding the concepts and ideas? What does still feel like "me"?

Much love
Silvia

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia,

By separateness I'm trying to put across that whereas before there was the notion that 'I', 'Simon' and 'me' were intrinsically linked to who I thought I was, now it's not the case. There is no I, me or Simon anymore. I'll still use the terms and people will still use them when they refer to me. But the reality is that there is no real meaning to them anymore. All that exists is the present moment, what happens in direct experience. No past, no future, just the here and now. 'I', 'me' and 'Simon' and the meaning they previously carried is gone. I don't know how best to put it across without saying that they have been separated from me (me being an entity living in the here and now). It's hard to describe and put into words. Sorry if I'm come across unclear.

I'm not sure there are any sticking points. It seems that you believe that I've grasped it on a theoretical level but not on an experiential level. I'm getting it in my head but I'm not living it, truly experiencing it. What leads you to this? This process or investigation has been enlightening for all the reasons described above. Thank you.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Simon,

Yes, it's difficult to put into words. It sounds like you are very close, but there is still some identification with a "me" entity. There is no separate entity.

I don't know how best to put it across without saying that they have been separated from me (me being an entity living in the here and now)

Where/what is this entity? Does it live within the body? Is it the body? Is it mind? What does it do? Is it the thinker of thougths?

It seems that you believe that I've grasped it on a theoretical level but not on an experiential level.

I don't believe anything. That's why I'm asking you :-) So what is the answer?

Much love
Silvia

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Silvia,

Thanks again for your message. Sorry I've taken a few days to respond. If you don't mind I would quite like to leave the process. It has been fascinating, challenging and changing. I have really appreciated your guidance. It feels like things have shifted. I'm happy. I'm good. I think I have taken everything that I aimed to from this process. Thanks so much for your time, questioning and warm words of encouragement.

Best wishes,

Simon. X

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hey Simon,

Not a problem! It sounds like you're in a good place right now and that's great. I'm glad if I was able to help a bit.

All the best to you!

Silvia xxx