Would really love to be guided!!

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

As long as you think there are doubts, you are right it would be premature to put the final questions to you since that is one of the questions any way. Meaning we need to work on that.

That is how I was feeling. Thank you! I really appreciate you hanging in with me ...

There are thoughts of doubt, of getting lost again but is there a Daria having these doubts or getting lost?

It still FEELS like there is a Daria ... logically, this must be habit, but it feels real. There is tremendous frustration and sadness arising. These must also be conditioned, habitual (by definition), autopilot cause/effect. Cause: the presumed belief that "I" cannot "get this", that I keep circling around and around it feeling stuck.

So it FEELS like there is a Daria, feeling frustrated and sad, leading into her "hopelessness/poor me" crap that is so familiar; the habit is to react to these feelings and get stuck in the mire of suffering. Who is suffering if there is no me? If I pull back, just watching these conditioned responses, who do they belong to? The thoughts and feelings are just there. I can't see them belonging to anyone, they are just there and the familiar feelings are being experienced somehow, and "I" feel like a puppet who just got its strings pulled. Geez. Why do I keep falling for this??!

So the key question is if there is a you, where are you, what are you?

Good point. I haven't been able to find a "me" in a location or any object that makes a me (no one inside, not the body, been here again and again). What am I? I must just be an accumulation of memories attached to the assumptions/beliefs based upon them, and the feelings that arise in cause/effect fashion, so familiar, so many years of autopilot ... experience - interpretation/label from the memory banks - thought(s) - feelings - around and around ... this is seen so why do I feel so stuck in a me?

What is absolute conviction in direct experience?

There cannot be any. Absolute conviction must involve labeling, so by definition direct experience cannot involve labeling.

These expectations must be based on something. Find out what they are.

Again, the expectation I cannot seem to let go of is that my perception will somehow be different if I am "convinced" there is no me. That I won't have to "remind" myself each time, "oh, there is no me, "I" am just am illusory bundle of memories/assumptions/beliefs/thoughts/feelings that operate on auto-pilot, simply arising in cause-effect fashion ..." That there will be a clearer factual "seeing" of the truth that is not arrived at by logical deduction via the mind. Is it direct experience that I am looking for? Now if that is the case, this cannot lead to absolute conviction by definition. I think it could be that I am getting stuck trying to understand something through the mind that can never understand this ... is this is?

I feel like I am missing something important here ... driving myself crazy going around and around but not seeing the main point. Can you see what I am missing here?

Sorry to be such a pain ... :(

Love, Sita/Daria

[kvotski]

It still FEELS like there is a Daria ... logically, this must be habit, but it feels real. There is tremendous frustration and sadness arising. These must also be conditioned, habitual (by definition), autopilot cause/effect. Cause: the presumed belief that "I" cannot "get this", that I keep circling around and around it feeling stuck.

So it FEELS like there is a Daria, feeling frustrated and sad, leading into her "hopelessness/poor me" crap that is so familiar; the habit is to react to these feelings and get stuck in the mire of suffering. Who is suffering if there is no me? If I pull back, just watching these conditioned responses, who do they belong to? The thoughts and feelings are just there. I can't see them belonging to anyone, they are just there and the familiar feelings are being experienced somehow, and "I" feel like a puppet who just got its strings pulled. Geez. Why do I keep falling for this??!

Dear Daria,

As long as you believe there is a Daria, you will feel the hopelessness and fear because that's what the mind has created, a little afraid Daria who must be loved and protected. That illusion can't really do what you are asking it to do, for it doesn't exist.

I must just be an accumulation of memories attached to the assumptions/beliefs based upon them, and the feelings that arise in cause/effect fashion, so familiar, so many years of autopilot ... experience - interpretation/label from the memory banks - thought(s) - feelings - around and around ... this is seen so why do I feel so stuck in a me

Why do you feel stuck? Perhaps because you do not think you are all those memories etc. you are not being honest. You feel you are real, a person who can do things and feel things, make decisions, move mountains. Not the illusion that you are sometimes getting pressured by me to accept. Say it. You have been doing this all your life. To be a nice girl, you agree to things you don't quite feel to be true.

I feel like I am missing something important here ... driving myself crazy going around and around but not seeing the main point. Can you see what I am missing here

?

Yes. I can see it very clearly. You are missing the point that there is no you. "driving yourself crazy, not get this, have conviction etc." are appearing real to you even though they are just thoughts which will be replaced by other thoughts in a few minutes. once you know there is no tooth fairy, do you still check under your pillow?

Why do you think there is still a Daria? You said you feel there is one. What does that mean? I feel I am a man. I can prove it by anatomical standards. What will you use to tell me you are Daria in direct experience?

We are not doing sixth sense here. So if you have gut feel there is a you, I want to see the gut. There has to be sensible evidence or else we are back in hypotheses etc.

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

As long as you believe there is a Daria, you will feel the hopelessness and fear because that's what the mind has created, a little afraid Daria who must be loved and protected. That illusion can't really do what you are asking it to do, for it doesn't exist.

I understand this, but it seems it must be a superficial understanding because I am still experiencing being a pathetic, hopeless Daria. I am experiencing illness today (diverticulitis with various pains, discomforts in the body with a myriad of thoughts and feelings about this) and it definitely feels like it is "happening to a me."

I definitely understand that as long as I believe in a Daria, I will continue to feel these things. I truly want to believe in a no-Daria but despite all of the evidence I have seen (and written previously), I still continue to experience a me. I feel very discouraged.

Why do you feel stuck? Perhaps because you do not think you are all those memories etc. you are not being honest. You feel you are real, a person who can do things and feel things, make decisions, move mountains. Not the illusion that you are sometimes getting pressured by me to accept. Say it. You have been doing this all your life. To be a nice girl, you agree to things you don't quite feel to be true.

I feel stuck because despite evidence (previously explained in detail) I still experience a me. I have looked and seen that I am all those memories et al, and yes, I still do feel that I am real, a person who can do things, feel things, etc. (not move mountains) - it feels that this belief is still present (or I imagine I would not still be experiencing myself this way). I do see all of the evidence that points to "me" being illusion, and whether or not you sometimes pressure me to accept it, it is true I have not been able to. I desperately WANT to, but trying to force this does not seem to work.

"To be a nice girl" I tend not to push an issue (if I can avoid it) - however, I don't generally agree to things that are not true. I have been expressing right along that I cannot/have not been able to fully accept "no me." I have not expressed this as adamantly as I could - and have avoided strongly expressing this, perhaps not wanting to "make waves" (yes, lifetime habit) for fear you might not want to continue working with me (abandonment, etc.). There is an underlying fear that "I am hopeless" (previously expressed) and that you will get tired of my inability to accept what I have seen (no me), and I will lose this opportunity to realize the truth.

[/quote]Yes. I can see it very clearly. You are missing the point that there is no you. "driving yourself crazy, not get this, have conviction etc." are appearing real to you even though they are just thoughts which will be replaced by other thoughts in a few minutes. once you know there is no tooth fairy, do you still check under your pillow? [/quote]

Yes, I have seen the evidence of "no self" but somehow it doesn't change the underlying belief in a me - perhaps the evidence was not compelling enough for me to see the snake is a rope, and this can't be faked. I really don't know, I just know that I feel very frustrated and discouraged, and still hope there is a way I can cut through this illusion ...

Why do you think there is still a Daria? You said you feel there is one. What does that mean? I feel I am a man. I can prove it by anatomical standards. What will you use to tell me you are Daria in direct experience?

I don't know why I still think there is a Daria, I only know that I continue to experience this. There is NOTHING in direct experience I can use to tell you there is a Daria ... this is where I feel completely frustrated.

We are not doing sixth sense here. So if you have gut feel there is a you, I want to see the gut. There has to be sensible evidence or else we are back in hypotheses etc.

I agree ... there is no sensible evidence so it must be coming from thought (memory/belief, etc.); and superimposing the belief of "no me" onto this doesn't seem to change anything. Help!!

I really do appreciate all of your time and effort Sunil, and I am sorry I am having such a hard time "getting" this :(

Daria

[kvotski]

I understand this, but it seems it must be a superficial understanding because I am still experiencing being a pathetic, hopeless Daria. I am experiencing illness today (diverticulitis with various pains, discomforts in the body with a myriad of thoughts and feelings about this) and it definitely feels like it is "happening to a me."

Dear Daria,

Of course it feels such as just an understanding will not do. It HAS to be direct experience, not understanding, belief or any of the mind things. Thoughts can not tell you anything true. Touch your hair again, what makes it hair, what makes it yours? This is not understanding, there is no mind needed here.

I feel stuck because despite evidence (previously explained in detail) I still experience a me. I have looked and seen that I am all those memories et al, and yes, I still do feel that I am real, a person who can do things, feel things, etc. (not move mountains) - it feels that this belief is still present (or I imagine I would not still be experiencing myself this way). I do see all of the evidence that points to "me" being illusion, and whether or not you sometimes pressure me to accept it, it is true I have not been able to. I desperately WANT to, but trying to force this does not seem to work

We have to start from the top. Perhaps it would be easier this time.

What experiences a " me" in DE?
Assuming we are still okay with DE being the only determinant. If not, we can't proceed.
What is this you that is real? Are you the body? Are you the thoughts?
Why are you trying to force and what are you trying to force?
That illusion, which you say all evidence points to, means something other than false? Come on 4.0 girl.
ILLUSION is seeing something that is not there. And all evidence according to you points to you being an illusion.

Are you having a tantrum fit? Are you just sulking, little Daria?

"To be a nice girl" I tend not to push an issue (if I can avoid it) - however, I don't generally agree to things that are not true. I have been expressing right along that I cannot/have not been able to fully accept "no me." I have not expressed this as adamantly as I could - and have avoided strongly expressing this, perhaps not wanting to "make waves" (yes, lifetime habit) for fear you might not want to continue working with me (abandonment, etc.). There is an underlying fear that "I am hopeless" (previously expressed) and that you will get tired of my inability to accept what I have seen (no me), and I will lose this opportunity to realize the truth.

Are we fighting here, sitaji? Read this again. "Not been able to fully accept no me" what does that mean. Are you going to ask an illusion to accept that she is not an illusion? Or not ask her to accept no she? What is this?

Look at the evidence, counsellor. Is Daria an illusion or not? If not, show me where she is and what she is?

We define real those things we can directly experience.

Redo the touch experience to find you in the body. The thought experiment to find the thinker.

, I have seen the evidence of "no self" but somehow it doesn't change the underlying belief in a me - perhaps the evidence was not compelling enough for me to see the snake is a rope, and this can't be faked. I really don't know, I just know that I feel very frustrated and discouraged, and still hope there is a way I can cut through this illusion ...

Another big word, the mind likes to throw out, a belief. What does belief mean to you? Do you believe in god, in santi clause, tooth fairy, superman? If the evidence isn't strong enough. Lets start there. Reiterate what makes you say " you have seen the evidence of no self?"

I don't know why I still think there is a Daria, I only know that I continue to experience this. There is NOTHING in direct experience I can use to tell you there is a Daria ... this is where I feel completely frustrated

Do you actually experience that there is a you or is that just another thought?
Are all of these doubts just thoughts or direct experience?
I need details on what's going on here.

I agree ... there is no sensible evidence so it must be coming from thought (memory/belief, etc.); and superimposing the belief of "no me" onto this doesn't seem to change anything. Help!

And what makes you think that the superimposed belief is not just another thought from which you agree all doubts are coming?!

Just because some one thinks about a heinous crime doesn't make him a criminal. Just by thinking, one doesn't become as super model or a Nobel laureate. There is no qualitative difference between truth and a lie in thoughts. The only thing we can rely on is direct experience using your senses. You can smell the pizza, touch the table, see the lamp. They are there. You can think of Eiffel Tower and fly to Paris, verify that it is there. What will you see when you go to verify Daria? The body. Is that you?

Are you by any chance, so used to the suffering that you find a life without such crutches threatening? Would you be able to face the acupuncturist if you don't bring flowers? What would happen if she doesn't like you? What if she tells you off? Gives you a cold shoulder. Is that the end of your life as you know it?

Or do you want the 60's peace and love for all? Are there expectations you can never fulfill and hoping seeing the truth will make them all come true?

I know all of this, for I too am a child of the same era, conditioned the same way with heart breaks even happening today. Only difference is dear that it is just happening because of Big Bang. There is no me to change this now nor was there ever although I too was under the illusion that I could make it happen.

Or are you afraid you will become too nihilistic and give up doing anything?

Spill it.

Love

[kvotski]

Dear sita,

One more thought for you. If you were in control of your life, made all the decisions and present all the way through would you bring all these suffering to your body and mind? Would you really need to be here, doing this? Would anyone suffer?

Love

[kvotski]

You must listen to this,

http://www.soundstrue.com/weeklywisdom/ ... rsion=full

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

Are you having a tantrum fit? Are you just sulking, little Daria?

Yes, I think I have been having a tantrum AND feeling sulky! I have hit a huge wall of resistance and feel like a bratty, angry child. It is painful to acknowledge, but doesn't make it any less true. So much resistance, pain, anger, frustration, grief, despair has come up for me (drawn from the collection of labels for some of the feelings) and it is hard to distinguish whether it is a reaction to this physical illness I am experiencing (numerous physical discomforts) and/or feeling stuck here. I feel completely fed up with living this way, yet here I am. I feel so stuck in such a dark place these past few days, it seems to be filtering everything making it very difficult to move forward in any positive way. I am going to make an effort here to see beyond this darkness ... I guess the positive here is that I don't care a bit about the "nice girl" and it seems easier to drop it and just "spill it" like it is without trying to uphold that image. One less piece of mental baggage. Thank you.

Of course it feels such as just an understanding will not do. It HAS to be direct experience, not understanding, belief or any of the mind things. Thoughts can not tell you anything true. Touch your hair again, what makes it hair, what makes it yours? This is not understanding, there is no mind needed here.

Thank you, this is exactly what I feel ... mental understanding won't cut it.
Nothing makes the hair to be hair in DE, it could be anything (before labeling) and nothing makes the hair mine. This is the experience.

We have to start from the top. Perhaps it would be easier this time.
What experiences a " me" in DE?
Assuming we are still okay with DE being the only determinant. If not, we can't proceed.
What is this you that is real? Are you the body? Are you the thoughts?
Why are you trying to force and what are you trying to force?
That illusion, which you say all evidence points to, means something other than false? Come on 4.0 girl.
ILLUSION is seeing something that is not there. And all evidence according to you points to you being an illusion.

Yes, ready to start again; I will not "censor" things that seem irrational or confused (that push my "I must be stupid/not smart enough" button), or do not make sense (the "nice, perfect 4.0 girl" needed to do that), but will just "spill it" straight up this time so perhaps it will be clearer where I am getting hung up:

In DE there is no me experienced ... just sensory data, impersonal (not attached to any-thing or anyone). There are sounds, sights, sensations, etc. just occurring.

I understand that DE can be the only determinant, or else we are dealing with labels/thoughts/mind/beliefs; still OK here.

This "me" that is real seems to be the one experiencing everything; this sensory data is received (somewhere, no idea where, can't find a place) and then interpreted to mean something happening within a context of a "me"; e.g., sensation in the head experienced, somehow labeled/interpreted as "throbbing pain in MY head, I am in pain." This me "knows" the experience of head pain from past experience of similar sensory data that has happened. This "real me" has a history of experiences/memories that feel "personal" and familiar that can be drawn upon "at will"; in other words, if "I" want to remember other experiences of head pain, I can draw them from memory banks and this occurs when "I" decide to do so (seemingly controlled by the will of an "I"). This seems to be where I get stuck; the interpretation/labeling part that creates a "familiar/personal I" is outside of DE so must be discarded as any evidence of an "I" if DE is the only determinant. If DE is the only determinant there is no evidence of any I ... so I see all the familiar personalized experience (described) happens after the DE. How can I accept that this personalized experience is NOT a me?

Am I the body? It sure feels that it is "my" body experiencing so many sensations right now; I don't feel the sensations happening in other bodies. Now I feel really stuck here too. I "know" I am not the body (because I have experienced continuing awareness when I have been outside my body) and that in DE there are only sensations that occur but without labeling/identifying them, they are only sensations, not "my headache" etc. Again this feels like a mental understanding, I don't know how to let go of accepting the personalized labels as real. On the Sounds True link that you sent, it was said that the body identification (my body, not my body) is neurologically embedded/programmed in the brain ... is this part of the problem here??!

Am I the thoughts? As they just arise, DE shows that "I" am not in control of them arising (or subsiding). However, "I" can bring up a particular thought or memory seemingly at will (this is tricky for me); however, this does not make ME the thoughts. I can see that thoughts create a "me". Without thoughts there are no constructs of a "me" "my body" "my thoughts." DE points to the fact that I am not the thoughts, and logic says that it takes thoughts to construct a me. This still seems to be a mental understanding as it still FEELS like there are "my thoughts" and I seem to be affected by them. Can't seem to shake this. I see that if I can fully accept that the thoughts are not "mine" the whole house of cards could fall without the labels to make it all a me.

Are we fighting here, sitaji? Read this again. "Not been able to fully accept no me" what does that mean. Are you going to ask an illusion to accept that she is not an illusion? Or not ask her to accept no she? What is this?

Oh, I am feel so stuck here! This is what I have just described ... DE shows me there is no me, just sensory experiences... and as soon as the labels get added, there is a me. I understand this, that thoughts can never tell me anything true, so I must be an illusion because I am (essentially) created by thought ... so I see your point - that it is absurd to ask an illusion to accept that she is not an illusion. I am ashamed to say, I still feel stuck here - logic (all evidence points to my being an illusion) doesn't seem to bring me to acceptance.

Look at the evidence, counsellor. Is Daria an illusion or not? If not, show me where she is and what she is? We define real those things we can directly experience.Redo the touch experience to find you in the body. The thought experiment to find the thinker.

I am going around and around in the same circles (4.0 and all) here. Defining real things as those we can directly experience by definition means Daria is an illusion as I cannot experience her by DE. 100% logical, totally points there and yet the rope still seems like a snake. HELP! Am I totally hopeless? I want to be fully honest here, that I still experience a snake ...

Another big word, the mind likes to throw out, a belief. What does belief mean to you? Do you believe in god, in santi clause, tooth fairy, superman? If the evidence isn't strong enough. Lets start there. Reiterate what makes you say " you have seen the evidence of no self?"

Belief means that I am absolutely convinced of the truth of something, that there is no doubt. And I am not absolutely convinced of no self as much as I would love to be. Here is the evidence I have seen of no self:

1) I have looked within and do not directly see any thing that is a self there
2) I see that sensory information comes (without my control) and is automatically labeled (from memory) without any conscious control of a self
3) I have seen that all thoughts and emotions arise without the control of a self and that "I" act as puppet in response (cause-effect)
4) With DE as the determinant, by definition there cannot be any evidence of a self because this requires a label which by definition cannot be DE

Do you actually experience that there is a you or is that just another thought?
Are all of these doubts just thoughts or direct experience? I need details on what's going on here.

I feel like we are going around in circles again, and that I just can't get this!! I do not experience a "me" in DE so it the experience of me has to be just another thought!!!!! YES, all of these doubts are (by definition) just thoughts too, as a doubt cannot be a DE because a doubt is a label/thought/identification, not a DE. I SEE THIS BUT I STILL FEEL STUCK. DE cannot be put into words or described or it is no longer DE. By definition, DE cannot be described and "doubts" and a "me" require description so they must be coming from thoughts/mind, not DE. HOW CAN I JUST ACCEPT I AM NOT A SELF???!!!! I see the logic and all I feel is frustrated and blind ...

And what makes you think that the superimposed belief is not just another thought from which you agree all doubts are coming?!

Logic tells me that the superimposed belief is just another thought and that doubts are just thoughts. DE wipes all that out. Is it that I have lived my life from thought and am not at all accustomed to accepting DE as the truth ...? Is this where I am stuck??

Just because some one thinks about a heinous crime doesn't make him a criminal. Just by thinking, one doesn't become as super model or a Nobel laureate. There is no qualitative difference between truth and a lie in thoughts. The only thing we can rely on is direct experience using your senses. You can smell the pizza, touch the table, see the lamp. They are there. You can think of Eiffel Tower and fly to Paris, verify that it is there. What will you see when you go to verify Daria? The body. Is that you?

Same issue here. DE will never verify Daria or the body as being me.

Are you by any chance, so used to the suffering that you find a life without such crutches threatening? Would you be able to face the acupuncturist if you don't bring flowers? What would happen if she doesn't like you? What if she tells you off? Gives you a cold shoulder. Is that the end of your life as you know it?

I just don't know if this is the case. I am absolutely sick and tired of suffering and do not believe that I would consciously choose it. Yes, without it, this would be the end of my life as I know it, and I cannot imagine that I would not welcome this even if fear (of unknown) arises.

Or do you want the 60's peace and love for all? Are there expectations you can never fulfill and hoping seeing the truth will make them all come true? I know all of this, for I too am a child of the same era, conditioned the same way with heart breaks even happening today. Only difference is dear that it is just happening because of Big Bang. There is no me to change this now nor was there ever although I too was under the illusion that I could make it happen. Or are you afraid you will become too nihilistic and give up doing anything?

Yes, I do like the 60's peace and love for all. And yes, I do hold some hope that seeing the truth will bring more love and peace but I am not sure how this holds me back from accepting a no self. I have never been on any bandwagon to change the world, my only real desire is to change my understanding to reflect what is true, even if it is not peace and love for all.

One more thought for you. If you were in control of your life, made all the decisions and present all the way through would you bring all these suffering to your body and mind? Would you really need to be here, doing this? Would anyone suffer?

Great point. I cannot imagine consciously bringing all of this suffering to my body (and it is suffering greatly at present) and mind!! It makes absolutely no sense at all. If I were in control of my life, I would surely not purposefully bring this suffering to anyone.

BTW, Thank you for the link from Sounds True; I found it very interesting, especially the part about how the brain is programmed to be hypervigilant throughout the night looking for predators (based on 1000's of years of human existence). That is precisely what I experience, and explains it perfectly!! I awaken with a panicky feeling, deep seated fear of being harmed in some way. As he explained, most people just forget it and go back to sleep, but I am really sensitive and aware of it happening. This makes perfect sense, and is another perfect example of programming ...

As I finish this, I notice an anxiety about your disapproval arising ("she is hopeless, can't accept what is in front of her nose" etc.), of not fulfilling my "nice girl, sugar-coating people-pleaser" image. And I realize that all of that just places obstacles in my getting closer to the truth. So be it, I've just "spilled it."

Love, Sita/Daria

[kvotski]

Dear loving Daria:

[/quote]Thank you for spilling it. Lets do this

I feel completely fed up with living this way, yet here I am. I feel so stuck in such a dark place these past few days, it seems to be filtering everything making it very difficult to move forward in any positive way. I am going to make an effort here to see beyond this darkness ... I guess the positive here is that I don't care a bit about the "nice girl" and it seems easier to drop it and just "spill it" like it is without trying to uphold that image. One less piece of mental baggage. Thank you.

Is fed up just a thought? Is being stuck another thought? Is there some one making an effort or is the effort just a reaction to the ennui? What nice girl? Is this mental baggage another thought?

Yes, ready to start again; I will not "censor" things that seem irrational or confused (that push my "I must be stupid/not smart enough" button), or do not make sense (the "nice, perfect 4.0 girl" needed to do that), but will just "spill it" straight up this time so perhaps it will be clearer where I am getting hung up

Is there someone censoring or is that also a thought? Who will spill it and who gets hung up, the thought constructs you call Daria? More thoughts?

In DE there is no me experienced ... just sensory data, impersonal (not attached to any-thing or anyone). There are sounds, sights, sensations, etc. just occurring.

I understand that DE can be the only determinant, or else we are dealing with labels/thoughts/mind/beliefs; still OK here.

Excellent. Keep coming back to this. Mind is used to working math problems based on a starting condition. And that is our starting symbol. DE acceptable, rest not.

This "me" that is real seems to be the one experiencing everything; this sensory data is received (somewhere, no idea where, can't find a place) and then interpreted to mean something happening within a context of a "me"; e.g., sensation in the head experienced, somehow labeled/interpreted as "throbbing pain in MY head, I am in pain.

If it was not your head, would it still be aching? So the pain doesn't make it yours something else does. What is it? What comes first, the pain or the thought that this is my head and my headache?

How can I accept that this personalized experience is NOT a me

By asking again and again why is this experience being personalized?
Not just the headache but any experience, pleasant or pain, can you find the experiencer? Is it a limb which has been labeled mine? Headaches are overwhelming, I get them too and are tough to analyse but I can assure you after you have seen no self, it becomes better.

So lets look at another limb. Slap your knee with closed eyes. Ears heard the noise, knees felt a sting. Were they your knees before or after you hit them? What made them yours?

Am I the body? It sure feels that it is "my" body experiencing so many sensations right now; I don't feel the sensations happening in other bodies. Now I feel really stuck here too

Just like the slap above, without lumping them into" all sensations" take them one by one, hearing, touching, seeing, smelling. Are the instruments sensing them first and then a thought comes in to possess? Is this true.

How can instruments in the body labeled Daria sense pain in other bodies? We are not denying that there is a body which has been labeled Daria and it sense things. What is absent is an overall owner of these sensations identified by the mind as a person and individual. That is simply a thought that comes in like other thoughts like clouds in the sky.

. I "know" I am not the body (because I have experienced continuing awareness when I have been outside my body) and that in DE there are only sensations that occur but without labeling/identifying them, they are only sensations, not "my headache" etc. Again this feels like a mental understanding, I don't know how to let go of accepting the personalized labels as real. On the Sounds True link that you sent, it was said that the body identification (my body, not my body) is neurologically embedded/programmed in the brain ... is this part of the problem here??!

Find the person that can't let go. Is there one or is that another thought labelled you?

Everything is programmed and incorrectly which is what we re trying to undo. Sounds tough but you do this every day when you learn a new recipe or a new card game. No big deal. Never made an error in your life? And never corrected your behavior afterwards? That's all this is.

Am I the thoughts? As they just arise, DE shows that "I" am not in control of them arising (or subsiding). However, "I" can bring up a particular thought or memory seemingly at will (this is tricky for me); however, this does not make ME the thoughts. I can see that thoughts create a "me". Without thoughts there are no constructs of a "me" "my body" "my thoughts." DE points to the fact that I am not the thoughts, and logic says that it takes thoughts to construct a me. This still seems to be a mental understanding as it still FEELS like there are "my thoughts" and I seem to be affected by them. Can't seem to shake this. I see that if I can fully accept that the thoughts are not "mine" the whole house of cards could fall without the labels to make it all a me.

This is the crux of our problem here. Read it over and over and see what you are doing to prevent the reprogram.
I, a thought calls up another thought/memories to make this construct called I, me.
DE doesn't say that you are thoughts. It says any label of I or mine is a illusion, incorrect assignments of thoughts which happen all by themselves.

Is there a thinker DE can find?. So another thought comes and says that must be me. And that's a habit that needs to be seen through.
FIND OUT IF THERE IS A THINKER OF THESE THOUGHTS? LOOK.
For a thinker to be there, there should be control. Stop thinking of color red. Can you, now at this moment?
Stop thinking. Can you?
Is there a thinker?
Are these your thoughts?

.. DE shows me there is no me, just sensory experiences... and as soon as the labels get added, there is a me. I understand this, that thoughts can never tell me anything true, so I must be an illusion because I am (essentially) created by thought ... so I see your point - that it is absurd to ask an illusion to accept that she is not an illusion. I am ashamed to say, I still feel stuck here - logic (all evidence points to my being an illusion) doesn't seem to bring me to acceptance.

Where is the labeling come from?
What is stuck? What brings what to acceptance?
Can thoughts do anything?
Don't they just come and go?

HELP! Am I totally hopeless? I want to be fully honest here, that I still experience a snake ...

Where is this hopelessness happening in the body? Where is the experiencer of this snake? What snake? What rope? No metaphors. Just real stuff. What do you actually feel in DE?

Belief means that I am absolutely convinced of the truth of something, that there is no doubt. And I am not absolutely convinced of no self as much as I would love to be.

Double negative again. I didn't ask that. Tell me if you are absolutely convinced that there is a you, since you believe it to be so. Then look at your own words below.

Here is the evidence I have seen of no self:

1) I have looked within and do not directly see any thing that is a self there
2) I see that sensory information comes (without my control) and is automatically labeled (from memory) without any conscious control of a self
3) I have seen that all thoughts and emotions arise without the control of a self and that "I" act as puppet in response (cause-effect)
4) With DE as the determinant, by definition there cannot be any evidence of a self because this requires a label which by definition cannot be DE

Yes.

I feel like we are going around in circles again, and that I just can't get this!! I do not experience a "me" in DE so it the experience of me has to be just another thought!!!!! YES, all of these doubts are (by definition) just thoughts too, as a doubt cannot be a DE because a doubt is a label/thought/identification, not a DE. I SEE THIS BUT I STILL FEEL STUCK. DE cannot be put into words or described or it is no longer DE. By definition, DE cannot be described and "doubts" and a "me" require description so they must be coming from thoughts/mind, not DE. HOW CAN I JUST ACCEPT I AM NOT A SELF???!!!! I see the logic and all I feel is frustrated and blind ...

What is stuck? Describe in actual experience of being stuck.
How can you accept you ARE a self?

Is it that I have lived my life from thought and am not at all accustomed to accepting DE as the truth ...? Is this where I am stuck

Is this true? Direct experience is sensing. You have lived all your life without seeing, hearing, touching or smelling?
How have you lived your life from thought? Thought drives your car, got you through your distinctive career? We went thought that. Hard work using the five senses and a brain.

Stop making things up, sitaji.
??

Same issue here. DE will never verify Daria or the body as being me.

Then what will?

You have a choice of accepting overwhelming evidence you have outlines or some fuzzy mental construct about being stuck and seeing ropes and snakes. Which one will it be?

I just don't know if this is the case. I am absolutely sick and tired of suffering and do not believe that I would consciously choose it. Yes, without it, this would be the end of my life as I know it, and I cannot imagine that I would not welcome this even if fear (of unknown) arises.

Excellent. S why don't you give up protecting an illusion? It's quite simple. Just say so and it's gone.

]

Great point. I cannot imagine consciously bringing all of this suffering to my body (and it is suffering greatly at present) and mind!! It makes absolutely no sense at all. If I were in control of my life, I would surely not purposefully bring this suffering to anyone.

But you are, my dear, bringing this upon yourself by believing in an illusion is spite of all evidence against it.
This is masochism. Why? What are you afraid of? What will change if there were no thoughts claiming all of these yours rather than just happening because of the Big Bang?

Code: Select all

As I finish this, I notice an anxiety about your disapproval arising ("she is hopeless, can't accept what is in front of her nose" etc.), of not fulfilling my "nice girl, sugar-coating people-pleaser" image. And I realize that all of that just places obstacles in my getting closer to the truth. So be it, I've just "spilled it.

Find out where is this anxiety. Is it not just another thought that will pass just like your headache?
There is no one to be hopeless and no one to have nose. So how can that be?

Love,

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

Is fed up just a thought? Is being stuck another thought? Is there some one making an effort or is the effort just a reaction to the ennui? What nice girl? Is this mental baggage another thought?

Yes it seems that this is all going on in the mental realm of thought - that fed up, being stuck and mental baggage are all thoughts; they seem to elicit unpleasant feelings. When I examine them, it also seems that there is some aspect of "victimization" that goes with them, that somehow they have power over me. This somehow seems to be an important key. That this belief/thought somehow leads to "giving up." I imagine you will point out that these are just thoughts too, and I realize that is true, but there is something here that seems to be holding me back.

It seems that there is a layer of labels (labels over labels). For example, there was labeling/negative thoughts in reaction to resisting physical illness, unpleasant emotional feelings arose (anger, frustration, etc.), and more negative thoughts/labels of "fed up" "stuck" etc. arose = labels on labels + more unpleasant feelings, and then more labels of feeling trapped (that victim deal) in this unpleasantness. Then this compilation of thoughts and feelings seems to create a filter on my perception that I felt powerless to change.

Clearly there is no fed up, stuck, baggage, etc. in DE; even the label of "illness" would not be relevant here, just bodily sensations without labels. I see that, but then I cannot imagine living life from DE only, without thought. With just bodily sensations, no labels, how would I know to call the doctor? Of course all of the rest of the labels (why me, etc.) and ensuing emotions (anger, frustration, fear, etc.) are superfluous - completely counter productive.

Is there someone censoring or is that also a thought? Who will spill it and who gets hung up, the thought constructs you call Daria? More thoughts?

Censoring has to come from thought arising from assumptions based upon memory (need to uphold some image of Daria); these thoughts arise on their own, not necessary to have someone censoring. Yes, it seems Daria must be a thought construct. It is so hard to decipher this, and frustration and resistance (another label for the desire arising now to get away from looking at this) are arising. Again, logic tells me that Daria has to be a thought construct, as all of her reactions just seem to arise without any direction from "her."

Excellent. Keep coming back to this. Mind is used to working math problems based on a starting condition. And that is our starting symbol. DE acceptable, rest not.

Yes, I will try to keep coming back to this.

If it was not your head, would it still be aching? So the pain doesn't make it yours something else does. What is it? What comes first, the pain or the thought that this is my head and my headache?

Hmmm. Aching is a label, not DE. If it was someone else's head I would not detect any sensation (labeled as pain). If it was not "my" head it seems a sensation would be perceived by the senses, and by definition of DE no label would be applied, just a sensation. Yes, so the pain doesn't make it "my headache" ... first the sensation would arise (nothing personal) and be perceived (presumably by the senses), and then the label/thought follows "this is my headache."

By asking again and again why is this experience being personalized? Not just the headache but any experience, pleasant or pain, can you find the experiencer? Is it a limb which has been labeled mine? Headaches are overwhelming, I get them too and are tough to analyse but I can assure you after you have seen no self, it becomes better.

This experience (and for that matter it stands to reason all others) is being personalized by labeling, making it personal. In DE there is only the sensory data, nothing personal, no "me" - and then the mind labels it from past experience making it personalized. A sensation arises in the body and is perceived (presumably) by the senses, but the body is not the experiencER. Again, logic points to no THING for an experiencer, but the mind drawing labels from memory banks to personalize the experience based upon past similar ones.

So lets look at another limb. Slap your knee with closed eyes. Ears heard the noise, knees felt a sting. Were they your knees before or after you hit them? What made them yours?

Again, in DE there is only the sound and sensation, no personalized experience. If I slapped somebody else's knee, there would only be the noise; however, this still does not make it "my" knee as that is a label coming after the sensation.

Just like the slap above, without lumping them into" all sensations" take them one by one, hearing, touching, seeing, smelling. Are the instruments sensing them first and then a thought comes in to possess? Is this true.

Yes, this is true. The senses perceive first, then a thought comes in to make it personal/possess the sensation.

How can instruments in the body labeled Daria sense pain in other bodies? We are not denying that there is a body which has been labeled Daria and it sense things. What is absent is an overall owner of these sensations identified by the mind as a person and individual. That is simply a thought that comes in like other thoughts like clouds in the sky.

Yes, I can see that personalizing/ownership comes from thought (and yes, why is that thought that identifies me as "Daria" any more relevant than others?)

Everything is programmed and incorrectly which is what we re trying to undo. Sounds tough but you do this every day when you learn a new recipe or a new card game. No big deal. Never made an error in your life? And never corrected your behavior afterwards? That's all this is.

I see that. I really do. And it does sound very tough - and again, this seems to come back to that "victim" thing, where I seem to feel powerless to change the mind. It seems this must be a belief, and one that keeps me in the victim role. How to change this?? Just seeing this does not seem to change it.

Is there a thinker DE can find?. So another thought comes and says that must be me. And that's a habit that needs to be seen through.
FIND OUT IF THERE IS A THINKER OF THESE THOUGHTS? LOOK.
For a thinker to be there, there should be control. Stop thinking of color red. Can you, now at this moment?
Stop thinking. Can you?
Is there a thinker?
Are these your thoughts?

DE cannot find a thinker, and this thought layering thing is totally habitual. I see that. The mind seems to be layering thought over thought ... in DE I cannot see a mind, I can only see evidence of its functioning (thoughts arising, subsiding) ... however the mind definitely exists ... but then the mind seems to be an instrument only, not an objective thinker. There is definitely no thought traffic controller or there would be an instant cessation to the torture of these thoughts!!!! If there is a thinker that I cannot find, it is doing a really miserable job of thought traffic control!!!! So there really can't be a thinker and these thoughts really can't be "mine."

Where is the labeling come from?
What is stuck? What brings what to acceptance?
Can thoughts do anything?
Don't they just come and go?

OK, same deal ... labeling is just thoughts that come from the mind following sensory perception. If there is no thinker or self, stuck is just a thought. If there is no thinker or self bringing anything to anything/acceptance/whatever-ness is just thought layering from the mind. Thoughts cannot do anything, but they can elicit a cause-effect of emotions and further labeling (of the emotion) from autopilot ...

Where is this hopelessness happening in the body? Where is the experiencer of this snake? What snake? What rope? No metaphors. Just real stuff. What do you actually feel in DE?

Hopelessness is another label but it FEELS REAL when it is arising, and I feel powerless to change it (sound familiar?). I understand it is just a habitual label from so many past experiences of the same -

how can I break this?

I understand that there is no experiencER of a snake ... there are just thoughts labeling feelings ("I feel hopeless") that arose from other thoughts. In DE there would likely be some kind of sensation in the body (no label). For example, right now there is an uncomfortable feeling (I have to use a label as we are communicating in words here) in the solar plexus (another label) that I would label "frustration" due to past similar experiences.

Double negative again. I didn't ask that. Tell me if you are absolutely convinced that there is a you, since you believe it to be so. Then look at your own words below.

No, I am not absolutely convinced there is a "me" based on all that I have seen so far, and I understand that doubts are just thoughts too. I think that there is an expectation (I have mentioned this before) that some kind of perceptual shift would be experienced if I am absolutely convinced there is no self... and I imagine you will ask what would this shift be like, and I will have to answer that a perceptual shift is likely to be thoughts/labels too... around and around in circles ...

What is stuck? Describe in actual experience of being stuck.
How can you accept you ARE a self?

I think that stuck is feeling powerless to not believe the thoughts that I am not a self. Powerless is again a thought. It sounds so ridiculous but it feels real, and I want to be honest here.

I can only accept that I am a self based upon assumption, what I have done historically.

Is this true? Direct experience is sensing. You have lived all your life without seeing, hearing, touching or smelling? How have you lived your life from thought? Thought drives your car, got you through your distinctive career? We went thought that. Hard work using the five senses and a brain. Stop making things up, sitaji. ??

No, I think it is more that I have lived my life from thoughts that label the DE and then assuming that these were true. I don't know what drives my car, much of it is on autopilot, "I" don't really think about it. As far as my career, hard work, 5 senses, brain ... if there was no self, it was also done on autopilot. I am having trouble seeing what is true here ...

Then what will?

I DON'T KNOW (what will verify Daria)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have a choice of accepting overwhelming evidence you have outlines or some fuzzy mental construct about being stuck and seeing ropes and snakes. Which one will it be?

Yes, there is overwhelming evidence from DE that there is no Daria and I will gladly choose this over these "fuzzy mental constructs." It feels like I am looking for explanations as to WHY I can't seem to accept this, but really there is no REASON I can come up with

Excellent. S why don't you give up protecting an illusion? It's quite simple. Just say so and it's gone.

I desperately want to give up protecting this illusion. I GIVE UP THIS ILLUSION OF A SELF, I GIVE UP THIS ILLUSION OF A SELF, I GIVE UP THIS ILLUSION OF A SELF, I GIVE UP THIS ILLUSION OF A SELF. I have said it but it does not feel like it's gone ... again I know this is a thought ... HELP~!

But you are, my dear, bringing this upon yourself by believing in an illusion is spite of all evidence against it. This is masochism. Why? What are you afraid of? What will change if there were no thoughts claiming all of these yours rather than just happening because of the Big Bang?

I see this, and believe that I am fully willing to accept the evidence. I don't feel afraid (at this time) of this that I am aware of. If there were no thoughts claiming all of this as "mine" it would just be thoughts, nothing personal, nothing to worry about, no suffering ... I WANT TO GIVE UP THE ILLUSION OF SELF!!!!

Find out where is this anxiety. Is it not just another thought that will pass just like your headache? There is no one to be hopeless and no one to have nose. So how can that be?

Yes, it is just another thought, and it would subside if I didn't grab onto it as "mine" and that it means something. If there was no me, all thoughts could just arise and subside with nothing to do about them, nothing to take seriously in their content. Sounds really great.

It seems that the whole problem here is taking my thoughts seriously ...

Love, Daria/Sita

[kvotski]

Dear Daria,

It is quite simple. You have a belief that you can't accept no self, no Daria.

You are absolutely right.

YOU can't BELIEVE there is no YOU.

Accept this and give up the struggle. You are performing surgery without anesthesia. And limbs are violently protesting.

Sit with this in peace. Love the Daria that doesn't want to go.

These are also thoughts with no substance behind them.

Stop fighting. If a thought comes that I must get this, see that too is a thought and let it go.

Tell me how you feel.

[kvotski]

I also have a meditation for you.

Relax, eyes closed. One by one, use a sense, smell. Touch, taste, etc. then really pay attention to that sense. Look at where the signal goes all the way. What do you find at the end of each of these trails?

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

It is quite simple. You have a belief that you can't accept no self, no Daria.
You are absolutely right.
YOU can't BELIEVE there is no YOU.

I see the irony here. How can "I" not believe in an "I"?! Ridiculous, really. Ultimately it boils down to the same common denominator, that these are all thoughts, ironic, ridiculous (more labels) or not.

Accept this and give up the struggle. You are performing surgery without anesthesia. And limbs are violently protesting.

I so want to accept this and give up the struggle!! Just saying so doesn't seem to cut it. Surgery without anesthesia/violent protest is no way to live. It is insane (another label) and masochistic (yet another label).

Sit with this in peace. Love the Daria that doesn't want to go.
These are also thoughts with no substance behind them.
Stop fighting. If a thought comes that I must get this, see that too is a thought and let it go.
Tell me how you feel

Oh, to stop fighting and struggling to "get this" ... feels like a relief, to just let go of so much trying, efforting. Then sadness arises with tears (label: disappointed hope).
There is much physical tension that I feel (solar plexus mostly) with this struggle and when I let go of the fighting with the thoughts (of "getting this"), tell myself this is yet another thought, I can feel a relaxation in the body occur. The fighting is also physical!
So many more thoughts arise, tell myself they are also just thoughts, a world of thoughts, finally mind settles down a bit. I feel a (another label) quiet sadness.

I also have a meditation for you.
Relax, eyes closed. One by one, use a sense, smell. Touch, taste, etc. then really pay attention to that sense. Look at where the signal goes all the way. What do you find at the end of each of these trails?

SOUND: The sense information comes in (what seems like) immediately and I can barely distinguish a space between the sound and the label (rustling clothing, door closing, etc.). I noticed when I am not creating the sound (i.e., rustling clothes) there seems to be a tiny gap between hearing and labeling (e.g., airplane, running water, dog barking). I also notice that something is "censoring" sounds automatically; for example when I focus to listen to one sound (running water) the other sound (airplane) is not noticed even though it is still present.

SIGHT: Inner sight was different than with eyes open. There was not so much in the way of labeling as with sound in this instance. I just noticed (again a label is necessary for description here) lights moving in the inner vision with less of a tendency to immediately label but then I did notice that the label of "lights" that arose.

TASTE: Taste was a little different as a descriptor thought didn't arrive immediately as with a sound or sight. It seemed like the sense of touch/feeling (again I wouldn't be able to know or discuss this without labels, it is really tricky) - something touching the tongue - came first, then the taste right along with the label "apple juice." I could not sense any gap between sensation and label, the taste seemed to register along with the label/identification.

SMELL: Again, this was a bit difficult because I brought the object and applied it knowing what it was. The fragrance was immediately perceived and labeled "rose." However, I noticed today at the market the autopilot nature of smell - the smell arose and I became immediately aware of labeling and aversion, "fish, yuck." There seemed the possibility of a small gap between the initial smell perception that arrived and my awareness of the label and aversion to that smell.

TOUCH: This one was tricky. As I was touching myself, I was aware (thoughts) of moving to touch myself before the actual touch. It was easier to touch an object; when I touched the couch it was just a feeling, no label when I subtracted the thought that I knew it was a couch. It was just a sensation that came immediately into my "awareness". This "awareness" wasn't in any particular place, but when I allowed thought in I labeled it as my finger touching couch.

The deal here seems to be that it is near impossible for me to sense something without the label arising automatically and instantly, and of course none of the sensory data is able to be communicated without a label. So it seems that the senses are inextricably tied to thought, on autopilot.

So, to answer your question, at the end of each of these trails is THOUGHT. A label to identify whatever is perceived by the sense and this is drawn from past experience.

So it all seems to boil down to thoughts, thoughts and more thoughts ... creating a virtual world.

Love, Daria

[kvotski]

Dear Daria:

Great job.

I would really like you to accept defeat. Forget about intellectualising, just feel that you really can't get this for whatever reason. Relax and give up. Feel the peace. Worrying anout stopping suffering is another great suffering. its uselss to do that. See what unfolds.

This time, Pick one of the senses and pay no attention to labeling or thoughts. Let them come and go. I want you feel the signal of the sense enter your body and brain. Dig deep and look where it ends. Is it a place inside outside or nowhere? What is this place like where the sensing is happening.

Finally, only after doing these, look up the word illusion in a dictionary of choice. Ask is the self an illusion based on how you feel? Then defend it with the literal translation.

Love

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

I would really like you to accept defeat. Forget about intellectualising, just feel that you really can't get this for whatever reason. Relax and give up. Feel the peace. Worrying anout stopping suffering is another great suffering. its uselss to do that. See what unfolds.

There is a little relaxation (I wouldn't call it peace) with giving up; it lessens the restlessness and obsessive seeking slightly. Feelings of hopelessness and despair arise, I remind myself these come from thoughts, let it go, this is how it is, why do I persist in fighting with what IS? I do see that worrying about cessation of suffering brings suffering, that it is only more thoughts and doesn't bring any peace. And I have to admit it is hard to just accept defeat, "I" don't want to believe it, accept it, so really there is still residual fighting going on if I am really honest. Mind games.

I am also noticing background thoughts, saying I am not OK as I am, refusing to accept my life just as it is right now. Makes no sense, it is the way it is anyway, this is insanity.

This time, Pick one of the senses and pay no attention to labeling or thoughts. Let them come and go. I want you feel the signal of the sense enter your body and brain. Dig deep and look where it ends. Is it a place inside outside or nowhere? What is this place like where the sensing is happening.

I picked sound (these occur without my having to "create them) and sat focusing on this for several hours, and was unable to track where it enters the body or brain. I closed off my ears to stop the sound, then let the sounds back many times, and still could not sense the place where this is happening. Of course, with the ears covered there was an absence of sound, but I could not sense the sound entering the ears or anywhere else. The sound just showed up automatically in or through no particular place. The tricky part is that thoughts about where the sound was coming from and what it was kept automatically arising, and then letting them go.

The only thing of interest was that when I tried to locate if sounds were inside, outside or nowhere, initially it seemed that it was coming from outside to the inside somehow, but I could not locate a place. After awhile, it then seemed that the sound was somehow happening within me (I was sitting with eyes closed), and as I kept focusing on sounds (labels: airplane, dog barking, husband in shower, etc.) it seemed that these sounds were also somehow happening within me, as if the "field" that seems to contain me somehow grew and encompassed them. So the place where the sound and the sensing seemed to be happening "inside" somehow.

I also tried taste, but did not spend as much time. However, it all seemed localized on the tongue and I was unable to trace any taste sensation going anywhere else.

I feel like I am missing something here, but I recall you saying "if you can't find it maybe it's not there." The senses seem to be very subtle, and I can continue trying this if you think it could be fruitful.

Finally, only after doing these, look up the word illusion in a dictionary of choice. Ask is the self an illusion based on how you feel? Then defend it with the literal translation.

Again, logic tells me that the self is an illusion for all of the reasons I have listed previously. However, it seems I have still not accepted this. Now to defend this with the *literal translation:

*ILLUSION - Literal Translation:

• An erroneous perception of reality.

• An erroneous concept or belief.

• The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.

• A distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. Though illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people.

Wow. How can I defend this?? Clearly, I am "being deceived by a false/erroneous perception/belief/concept." No logical way to defend this, Daria is clearly an illusion, a trick of the mind. Why do I keep taking these thoughts seriously and believe in a real Daria???????????????????????????? How can I be defeated by thoughts?

Love, Daria

[kvotski]

. Feelings of hopelessness and despair arise, I remind myself these come from thoughts, let it go, this is how it is, why do I persist in fighting with what IS? I do see that worrying about cessation of suffering brings suffering, that it is only more thoughts and doesn't bring any peace. And I have to admit it is hard to just accept defeat, "I" don't want to believe it, accept it, so really there is still residual fighting going on if I am really honest. Mind games.

Dear Daria,

You can not ignore feelings. They are real. Fighting them will cause more suffering.
Suffering legitimizes the cause; suffering is real hence the thoughts that cause suffering are also assumed to be real. Years of practice may turn them into a crutch. Accident victims and paraplegic go through this.

Look at this. Is there a real fight? Why is it hard to accept defeat? Where is the residual fighting? What is this fight about?

Have you ever been paranoid about something only to find that it was false?

I

am also noticing background thoughts, saying I am not OK as I am, refusing to accept my life just as it is right now. Makes no sense, it is the way it is anyway, this is insanity.

Beating up the innocent body and mind again. Thoughts are real. Where is the thinker? Is she real?

The only thing of interest was that when I tried to locate if sounds were inside, outside or nowhere, initially it seemed that it was coming from outside to the inside somehow, but I could not locate a place. After awhile, it then seemed that the sound was somehow happening within me (I was sitting with eyes closed), and as I kept focusing on sounds (labels: airplane, dog barking, husband in shower, etc.) it seemed that these sounds were also somehow happening within me, as if the "field" that seems to contain me somehow grew and encompassed them. So the place where the sound and the sensing seemed to be happening "inside" somehow.

Well done. What does it mean?

I feel like I am missing something here, but I recall you saying "if you can't find it maybe it's not there." The senses seem to be very subtle, and I can continue trying this if you think it could be fruitful.

Yes. Look for listener, feeler, taster, etc? Look deep not just first layer as the tongue. See where is it that the sensation ends up, ignoring the labeling thought?

? Clearly, I am "being deceived by a false/erroneous perception/belief/concept." No logical way to defend this, Daria is clearly an illusion, a trick of the mind. Why do I keep taking these thoughts seriously and believe in a real Daria???????????????????????????? How can I be defeated by thoughts?

See the dynamics here. You realize and understand the illusion. Then immediately a story erupts with a label "I am being deceived". Then another " why and how am I being defeated".

Where is the deception? Where is the loss? What actually happened? Anything?

Is your suffering confusion, defeat and deception or is it the story, the narrative that these things are happening? Is this story real or an illusion?

Look at the words, use dictionary if you have to. Are you defeated? Are you walking around like a wild confused woman? Is your wallet still with you or stolen?

Look at them, really funny how the story engulfs the mind.

Love