The Gate

Hi Silvia, here you are the answers:

Am I the body?

No.

Am I the controller of the body?

No.

Is there a separate me making this body happen in any way?

No.

Is there a separate me making it move, breath, live, grow, age, exist?

No.

Does the body need a separate me-entity, or does it just exist?

It exists.

Looking for that "I" - noticing is there…

So where did you notice this I? Point it to me.

It is on the same places like other thoughts - in head, seemingly behind the eyes.

…there is something that says "I"

What is this something that says I? A thought maybe? Is the "I" a thought then?

Do you mean that “I” is a thought like, for example, a thought of going shopping (image of a store and products there...)?

Does a thought have any substance or real existence?

No. The thoughts have not any substance. They exist, it is sure, but they have not any substance in reality.

Looking for that "I" - noticing is there + there is something that says "I"

What do you notice when you look? A sensation in the body maybe?

Sure a sensation in the body is there.

So where is this is separate entity that experiences or controls or decides?

Now I am not able to say, that “I” is a separate entity. At least getting be unsure about the “I” now.

When you really look it turns out that it's just a sensation + a thought.
Is this true?

For example asking “Who am I?” gives to rise sound of word “I?” in the head and a sensation in the body. So the answer is: YES.

P.e.t.e.r.

Hi Peter,

Ok, so you are not the body in any way. Good.


Are you the thoughts? Do you make them happen? Do you have control over them? Can you choose what thoughts to have? Can you stop them?

Do thoughts think?

Please answer these questions.

You said

do you mean that “I” is a thought like, for example, a thought of going shopping (image of a store and products there...)?

Yes I is a thought. An idea. Like England or Slovakia. Is there an England or a Slovakia in reality? Or are they just useful labels to refer to a concepts, an arbitrary piece of land, group of people, language, laws, culture.. But is there a thing called England or Slovakia in reality?

So is with the I. It's a label that referes to "something". But is this something a real, existing, separate entity?

At this point how would you describe the I? How would you explain to a little child who still has no sense of self, what the self is?

Silvia x

Hi Silvia,

the answers:

Are you the thoughts?

No.

Do you make them happen?

No.

Do you have control over them?

No.

Can you choose what thoughts to have?

No.

Can you stop them?

No.

Do thoughts think?

No.

…Is there an England or a Slovakia in reality? Or are they just useful labels to refer to a concepts, an arbitrary piece of land, group of people, language, laws, culture. But is there a thing called England or Slovakia in reality?

It is right that there is not such a thing called England or Slovakia in reality.

So is with the I. It's a label that refers to "something". But is this something a real, existing, separate entity?

At this point how would you describe the I? How would you explain to a little child who still has no sense of self, what the self is?

With those last two questions I have problem. I do not (clearly) see what that "something" really is. Also no idea how to explain "self" to a little child now. Could you help with that, please?

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your answers. Where do the answers to the thought questions come from? Do you say no because you think is the right answer or do you see clearly in your experience that that is the case? Just checking. :-)

What about sensations? Close your eyes and stay with whatever sensations arise in the body. Watch how they arise and pass away.
Is Peter the do-er of the sensations? Has he control over the sensations? Can he stop them or change them?

Notice also how sensations tend to fall into the category or Pleasant, Unpleasant or Neutral. Notice how there is a tendency to seek the pleasant, push away the unpleasant and ignore the neutral.

Who does that? Do you choose what things are pleasant which are unpleasant?
What about the aversion and the grasping or the ignoring, do you make those happen?

So is with the I. It's a label that refers to "something". But is this something a real, existing, separate entity?

At this point how would you describe the I? How would you explain to a little child who still has no sense of self, what the self is?

With those last two questions I have problem. I do not (clearly) see what that "something" really is.

Ok, what I meant by "something" is experience and everything that arises within experience. There is this apparent body and sensations, and thoughts and so on. So like England or Slovakia we call all that Peter. But is Peter a separate entity in control of all those things? The experience is undeniable but is Peter the Experiencer

Also no idea how to explain "self" to a little child now. Could you help with that, please?

Just ask the question and then write whatever comes up. I'm not looking for the right answer, just what comes up when you ask the question. Imagine a little child asks you, what is the self? you answer, well in my experience, even if I'm not sure anymore (which is a good sign by the way) the self seems to be...so and so..

Hope you're having a nice Saturday

Silvia x

Hi Silvia,

Your questions are killing me. I am feeling to be upset, angry and tired because of the whole „direct experience“ thing. I am loosing sense whether this or that was experienced directly or it is an outcome of the mind. I want to answer your questions honestly, being 100% sure, but I often feel I lie you and I do not want to lie you. Am I body? Am I thoughts? Am I sensations? ...seeing that clearly...how to do that? What if my next answer will come from the mind but I will believe it has been a direct experience? How can I know what is really real? How can I be sure that it is not thinking doing its perfect job? How to answer your questions with 100% of clarity? Also I do not understand why the questions are important, if nothing can be done in order to discover the truth. It was said that the truth will be recognized by itself. Also I do not understand why the „I-dentification“ happens. I have never asked for that.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I didn't know you were struggling with the questions. Please let me know if that happens again.

We went trough what direct experience means and you seemed to have a very good understanding of it. What happened?

What I mean by direct experience is this

1) thought

2) sensations
seeing
hearing
smelling
tasting
feeling [tactile + kinesthetic)

3) an unmistakable sense of Aliveness
(presence, being)

What about this makes you angry and don't you understand?

Here are 2 articles you might find useful to read.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... _Gate.html

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

They explain what we're doing here and why.

When you read Gateless Gatecrahers, did you understand why the questions were being asked and why they helped in seeing there is no separate self?

Let me know how it goes.

Much love
Silvia

Hi Silvia,

thank you for the links to the article, especially to the Direct Experience article. I read The Gate article, but the second one missed my attention.

What happend? I wanted to see the truth quickly but it seems to much effort was put into it. There was an idea that each answered question was a step forward to the truth so "mind" tried to be helpful and brought some answers. The outcome of that was a chaos and finally the struggling.

Do you want me to answer the questions you posted on Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:21 pm or do you have something else for me now?

Peter

Hi Peter,

I hope you had a nice Sunday. I'm glad the article helped.

Are there any more doubts about what we're doing here and how this works? It's important to get them out in the open so we can deal with them.

How do you understand the idea of no-self intelectually? Don't worry about whether you see it or not in reality. Just your ideas or thoughts around the subject. Do you believe intellectually that there is no separate personal self?

Also try again to describe what the self feels like for you at the moment. Even if you're not sure anymore if it's true. For example for me it seemed quite clear that the self was the witness, the experiencer of everything that happened to "me". Other people feel very sure the self is the thinker or the do-er or the decider or even the creator of emotions or all of the above!. How does it feel for you when you think of your self?

If ever you're not sure what I'm asking or it gets confusing again, let me know.
We are challenging the most deep seated belief, so it's normal to have all sorts reactions to that.

I never asked because your English seems so good, but can you understand everything I write ok?

Leave expectations about how the seeing will happen. Things are progressing just as they should!
I'm not going anywhere until you get through the Gateless Gate :-)

Much love
Silvia x

Hello Silvia,

Are there any more doubts about what we're doing here and how this works? It's important to get them out in the open so we can deal with them.

Just for curiosity: How many people got through the Gateless Gate and “LU” helped them with that? Do not be afraid, I will not go away. I have tried therapists, read several books and nothing “helped”. Direct Experience seems to me to be a direct way the goes to the root cause and it is practical, not about theory, new knowledge or teaching.

How do you understand the idea of no-self intelectually? Don't worry about whether you see it or not in reality. Just your ideas or thoughts around the subject. Do you believe intellectually that there is no separate personal self?

No-self = in reality there is no one in the body that controls body, thoughts, sensations. Body, thoughts, sensations exist but there is no one who owns or creates them.

Yes, I believe that there is no separate personal self. Somehow it resonates what I have read in general or seen on YouTube. In the past I used to believe that “enlightenment” is something that were achieved by gurus such as Osho but they died. Thanks to the Internet and YouTube I found out that there are living “enlightened” people in the world like Mooji, Eckhart Tolle. …but they seemed to me not reachable. Finally I found out that there are very ordinary people and reachable in the world who report the same as Mooji, Eckhart Tolle… All of that somehow proves to me that "no-self" is not a fantasy or something like that.

Also try again to describe what the self feels like for you at the moment. Even if you're not sure anymore if it's true. For example for me it seemed quite clear that the self was the witness, the experiencer of everything that happened to "me". Other people feel very sure the self is the thinker or the do-er or the decider or even the creator of emotions or all of the above!. How does it feel for you when you think of your self?

Self = the witness who experiences and its voice is heard in the head. This witness is not tangible, it watches world around, comments it or have a chat with itself. It feels to be someone separate (I am here, everything else is over there). It acts and the body and mind are its key tools. It also feels that things happen to “me” and that “me” is protected. It is driven by fear (wants to survive) and pleasure (wants to feel good).

If ever you're not sure what I'm asking or it gets confusing again, let me know.
We are challenging the most deep seated belief, so it's normal to have all sorts reactions to that.

Ok.

I never asked because your English seems so good, but can you understand everything I write ok?

99% I understand what you write. Sometimes I need to translate some words in order to clarify their meanings. …but I think it would be the same if we used Slovak:-)

Leave expectations about how the seeing will happen. Things are progressing just as they should!
I'm not going anywhere until you get through the Gateless Gate :-)

Ok. Thank you so much for the support! I feel love from your side:-)

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your answers

Just for curiosity: How many people got through the Gateless Gate and “LU” helped them with that?

I have no idea! I never thought about it, didn't seem important. Impossible to know how many people have gone through the gate. As for LU, I seem to remember reading somewhere around 300. But I could be completely wrong. and it doesn't really matter to me.

It's important to realise that LU is nothing special. It didn't invent DE. Direct pointing has been used through the ages. It's just an invitation to look and examine experience. Nothing else. You don't even need a guide. The guide just helps keeping the focus on the search, that's all. It's all very mundane and ordinary really :-)

Do not be afraid, I will not go away.

I'm not worried you'll go away :-). A lot of people go away and there is always a good reason for it. Many come back later on when they feel more ready. It's a mystery how awakening happens. There is no one guiding and no one to guide.

I have tried therapists, read several books and nothing “helped”. Direct Experience seems to me to be a direct way the goes to the root cause and it is practical, not about theory, new knowledge or teaching.

Seeing through the illusion of self doesn't fix anything. Right now there is no self, no you, no I. So what changes when you realise that? nothing really! Stuff goes on as it always has. Because the perspective changes it opens up experience; sadness, pain depression are not happening to a separate "me" and therefore they are not a "problem" that needs to be fixed, but they still happen! Just like rain, and thunder and sunny days still happen. The same goes for happiness and the "positive" emotions. There is no need to grasp or hold on to them. And there can be a lot of joy in being no matter what the weather seems to be. Over time it seems like a lot of habits and beliefs fall away but there is not guarantee that this will happen, and in most cases it doesn't happen immediately. Everyone is different, so it's impossible to predict what will fall away and what will stay.

That's why I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to leave expectations behind. Only a desire for the truth will take you all the way there. It has to be like an itch at the back of your mind that you cannot scratch until you SEE.

How do you feel about this?

Yes, I believe that there is no separate personal self. Somehow it resonates what I have read in general or seen on YouTube. In the past I used to believe that “enlightenment” is something that were achieved by gurus such as Osho but they died. Thanks to the Internet and YouTube I found out that there are living “enlightened” people in the world like Mooji, Eckhart Tolle. …but they seemed to me not reachable. Finally I found out that there are very ordinary people and reachable in the world who report the same as Mooji, Eckhart Tolle… All of that somehow proves to me that "no-self" is not a fantasy or something like that.

Good! And you know what? once you see it for yourself, you won't believe how very simple, ordinary and obvious it is! :-) Yes, it can be liberating and awesome and brilliant to see the truth, but mostly is incredibly ordinary and the only mystery is how is it possible that you didn't realise it before!

Self = the witness who experiences and its voice is heard in the head. This witness is not tangible, it watches world around, comments it or have a chat with itself. It feels to be someone separate (I am here, everything else is over there). It acts and the body and mind are its key tools. It also feels that things happen to “me” and that “me” is protected. It is driven by fear (wants to survive) and pleasure (wants to feel good).

Ok, good. So let's examine the voice first.

What is this voice? Is it a real separate entity or is thought?

Watch how there is almost always a running commentary in your head. Experience happens, seeing, hearing, moving, and then there is this seemingly ongoing thought process classifying, labeling, and even owning what happens. It's like watching a tennis match, where the commentator keeps talking all the way through. Something gets done or there is an immediate thought "I did that". It happens so quickly is seemless. But is it true?

Does this commentary have a separate existence? is there anyone in control of it? Is it anything more than thought?

What happens in those moments when that running commentary stops? Does experience stop with it?

If you were this thought process then it's safe to assume that you'd disappear when the thoughts stop too, isn't that right? If it were you, wouldn't you have some control over what is said in your head?

Also if the commentary was "you" could "you" watch it happening?

Let me know what this brings up.

Much love

Silvia xxx

Hi Silvia,

I understand that regarding the expectations.

Here you are results from an observation of the "voice":

The "voice" seems to be a tool of "me", a way how "me" is expressed. ...that says a tought. Looking at the "voice": thoughts/word/sentences found with sounds. Yes, like a commentator. For example it says: "Oh, the water is hot!" "This needs to be moved there." "Aha, what a good price." "Oh my god, how that girl looks like:-)". The voice is also heard right now while writing and reading these words.

The comments are often from "I" perspective. "I need to wake up very soon tomorrow." "I need to send an e-mail before I leave the office." "I need to attend the meeting tomorrow, bad luck." "I feel hungry." and so on.

The commentary is not a separate existence. I do not know how it is created, where all those words, sentences come and go, why exactly those words are used in those forms, sentences and that time... When the commentary stops, experience does not stop. I see that mostly while listening to a loud music. No really control over that. It stops when it stops.

I do not really feel, that the "voice" is me. At this moment there is a thought that says: "me" as witness that uses "the voice" as a tool to express itself. - that is seen as an idea right now. Like a sentence that has just been read from a book without any verification. Like an information.

This "voice" has never been really questioned and perhaps your questions have not been fully answered yet but I only wanted to share, what is seen regarding the voice now.

Peter

Hi Peter,

The "voice" seems to be a tool of "me"

What is the use of this tool? What's it's purpose?


Silvia x

I would say its purpose is making thoughts to be "heard" in the head.

And what is the purpose of that?

No purpose. ...sometimes it is entertaining.