The Gate

Hi Ilona,

Would you say, that you are ready for the final questions? :)

Yes, No, Yes, No. It is all that matters!

How does it feel to answer as you answer?

I don’t know any longer, when I ask myself that, I get back a story. I see thoughts point exclusively to thoughts, so all I will ever find is another thought or story. Most of all there is no end to them. For example the thought ‘table’ points to other thoughts about the subject ‘table’. If I look more closely, there is no beginning and no end to it.

There are still fearful thoughts but they don’t even seem to be fully formed any longer, just a dull sense. I don’t really pay them much attention any longer. Last night I decided to ‘give it all I got’ so to speak and no matter what thought surfaced deliberately remind myself this is only a thought. Some easy, some hard. In a way ‘thought’ seems more harmless when it’s seen as only a thought.

A lot of the thought surfacing was fear based. I create my reality. That’s a thought. I am the reality that is created. That’s a thought. Life has control over me, I am it’s victim. That’s a thought. I will never understand. That’s a thought.

There are many times I forget and don’t remind myself it’s just a thought. Come to think of it, it’s like saying, ‘it’s just a dream’, it’s gone now…..

Now I see I am seeing ‘thought’ in the same way I see things. This feels good, a very nice insight. ‘I’ is among those thoughts, my house, my cat and so on. I see the idea I am thinking thoughts and how that illusion works. I see I am identifying myself not as the thought but as the thinker of those thoughts quite clearly now. There’s still a lot of them and the identification of being the thinker is still strong.

How it feels is letting go of the responsibility as the thinker.

In deep appreciation
Nino

Nice. You are getting close.
Lets dig around the thinker for a bit.
What does a thinker do?
What can a thought do?
Can a thought think?

Thinking is another way to sense life, another way for life to sense itself.


Try this experiment.
Focus for a bit on each sense. Take 2-3 min to notice just one chanel of perception. A fruit can be used, or something like that.

Before starting the experiment imagine, that you have total amnesia and this is something you are experiencing for the first time. Then see what you notice with 6 senses including the mind/thinking sense. When focusing on a perception channel ignore for a bit the others and immerse fully into experience. Go through each one- with eyes closed and eyes open. Experience that fruit in all possible ways.

Report after and describe what you learned

Sending love.

Hi Ilona,

Nice. You are getting close.

Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement!

Lets dig around the thinker for a bit.
What does a thinker do?

Aside from getting on my nerves, what does the thinker do? If a thinker, ‘I’, were to exist that would mean I would be somewhere in time and space. Where is space? I am nowhere to be found in space and time, and space cannot be found – because it isn’t there.

Maybe it’s the other way around. Like the ‘seeing’ is the ‘seen’. The ‘thought’ is assumed to have being deliberately ‘thought up’. But that makes no sense.

Something is very wrong in how I am looking – it’s like I look but I don’t see.

A thought implies the existence of a ‘thinker’, someone, if the origin of the thought itself exists – and that would have to be someone. But there can be no someone because there is no space (literally).

Ok, only if the origin of the thought lies in existence can there be a thinker. Where else can the origin be other than in existence, i.e., space and time – which don’t exist anyway.

Looking for the ‘thinker’ won’t work because that ‘looking’ can only be for something that exists in time-space. I could say, looking for a non-physical thinker but that can only ever be a thought and as you point out: That which doesn’t exist neither appears nor disappears.

There is a seeking for a proof I exist. As Darth Vader says; Search your feelings you know this to be true.  And here we go: That is a thought I am seeing. But there’s no me to see it. (thought). There is no space, so there is no separation, so there is no me or you, so there is nothing-ness just being – dreaming. (Nice thought, quite poetic).

Ok. What is the relationship ‘I am typing on the computer’? First thought I see is ‘intention’, followed by the idea I’ve thought what I’m going to type (which I haven’t) it’s just flowing. Next thought is the keyboard, then the hands, then the arms, then the torso, head, eyes, legs…. The chair, the room, the garden outside and fresh air coming in….. all thoughts.

What can a thought do?

Thoughts don’t do anything, they’re a bit like televisions, they give the appearance of doing something through their stories. Just a thought. :)

Can a thought think?

No. Thinking is happening, the idea of a thinker is happening.
I wonder, the experience of thinking happens, the idea of a thinker is thought, the sensation of being some body happens, the sensation of experiencing as a body and the world happens, and so on. For there to be a ‘thinker’, Lol!, there has to be someone who knows what the next thought will be.

Ilona, I think I’ve discovered why I can’t find the ‘gateless gate’, I’m looking for it. :)

Without the thought of existence how can there be existence. (thought, thought, thought…)

Thinking is another way to sense life, another way for life to sense itself.

Do thoughts make sense? I’ve always assumed they have. Seeing makes sense because it is seeing. Thoughts – I don’t exist; I believe myself to be a sensible and responsible person?. 1 + 1 = 2, that makes sense because I can see it. Try to explain it? Not a hope. But is a kind of freedom. If I can’t explain what I can see, how can I possibly explain what I can’t see. Ah I see… there is seeing or there is not, ‘thinking’ can make no sense of this, that’s just thoughts of thinking thoughts.

Try this experiment.
Focus for a bit on each sense. Take 2-3 min to notice just one channel of perception. A fruit can be used, or something like that.

Before starting the experiment imagine, that you have total amnesia and this is something you are experiencing for the first time. Then see what you notice with 6 senses including the mind/thinking sense. When focusing on a perception channel ignore for a bit the others and immerse fully into experience. Go through each one- with eyes closed and eyes open. Experience that fruit in all possible ways.

For some reason I find this a very difficult experience. I seem to always be doing it wrong – I know there is really no right or wrong way – but I’m uncertain if I am doing it ‘right’.

The avocado has a rippled texture, smooth, some coarseness. It is heavy and quite hard indicating it is not yet ripe. Without my eyes open I would never spot it as an avocado. It has a rich deep green rippled surface with some brown blemishes and is not too small.
With my eyes open, it is a real avocado, I could open it and eat it. But it wouldn’t be tasty because it’s not ripe. When my eyes are closed, it’s still real, but it’s not and avocado, it’s an object with properties and I can’t see if it’s edible or not. It has no scent really, or the slight sent of wax, from being in supermarket storage. The wax is a sort of neutral perfume.
Gently biting into the skin, the taste is interesting, it’s cool, resistant to my teeth, I can taste the green-ness of it if I’m looking at it.

What the object ‘actually’ is really depends on perception. It could be a heavy, misshapen, wrinkly, solid ball, or an avocado by touch alone. In a way, if the senses don’t agree, it is not seen as real.

Whichever sense comes first, it doesn’t matter, seeing or touching the avocado brings it from being imaginary to life. Put it down and close my eyes it becomes an idea again.


I have a very strong feeling, thoughts don’t make any sense at all – which is why they are thoughts?


Love and thanks for now
Nino

Hi Ilona,

Now I’ve realised, in thought there is only more thought. I’ve gone from looking for myself in direct experience to looking for myself in thought only to find there is only thought in thought. No self at all.

Self is a thought, nothing more, why, because it is thought. Period. There is no self in existence or non-existence. This is strangely depressing and freeing. But there is no-one to feel free or depressed. It doesn’t really matter at all. It’s just thought.

What isn’t in direct experience is in thought. In thought I will always find an answer which is a thought. An answer is a thought. It can’t be anything else.

There is nothing but more thought there, infinitely so.

So I see there is no Self except in thought, which is not a self! So now the seeking for a self in thought is over with that realisation.

Love, appreciation and a very strange sensation!
Nino

Yes! You are looking right at it.
Self/ I is a though.

Thoughts are not entities. Just tags, labels, words.

If I ask you to describe is very strange sensation, description does not even come close to experience.

Let this settle in for a bit and write more.
Is there anything wrong with thinking?


Sending love.

Hi Ilona,

I’m staring right at ‘it’ all right.

If I ask you to describe is very strange sensation, description does not even come close to experience.

It’s strange because I realised there isn’t a Self that exists and there isn’t a Self that doesn’t exist. Since then thoughts are just passing, they don’t really ‘stick’ too well more any because there is no Self to own them any longer.

Is there anything wrong with thinking?

Not at all, it’s nature at work. Right now the chronically repetitive thoughts are slowing down and I’m looking forward to more pleasant ones.

You are dead on, as usual! I need time to let this sink in. Usually when I come down from the high of an insight not much has really changed. This time there is no ‘I’ to come back to. But it’s going to take the time it takes.

I may not be able to reply tomorrow, I’ll be away till Sunday evening.

Nothing but appreciation
Nino

Awesome! Yes, no self as in zero. I see you got that. :)

Setling in, seeing deeper does not end. There is no place to land, nothing to grasp to hold on. Although grasping still happens, as part of process of clearing up. Stuff comes up be be looked at and released. It's a lifetime process.

How is seeking? Still there a little bit or all has dropped?

Much love, nino.

Hi Ilona,

Settling in, seeing deeper does not end. There is no place to land, nothing to grasp to hold on. Although grasping still happens, as part of process of clearing up. Stuff comes up be looked at and released. It's a lifetime process.

Yes it does, it releases all by ‘itself’ because ultimately there is nothing to relate to it. And it’s gone.

How is seeking? Still there a little bit or all has dropped?

It’s still there in the sense of stuff clearing itself up, I passes effortlessly now. The intensity is still all there but the anxiety is going.

It’s absolutely beautiful.

I may be a bit slow coming back to you on your next post.

Love and appreciation
Nino

:) beautiful!
How is it going? Anything interesting to report?

Much love.

Hi Ilona,

How is it going?

From my earliest memory at 5, to now at 46 this is the first time I have not felt the irresistible urge to look for that something in everything I do. It is a real pleasure to have met you along the way!

By way of analogy, it’s like a huge dam has suddenly ceased to exist and everything built on the premise of that dams being is suddenly abandoned, and there is no anxiety about it at all. To answer your question (again); What is awakening? To see for yourself there is no Self. That is all it is. Each time I get carried away, I re-discover the realisation; There is no Self.

So after searching for ‘it’ for so long I was concerned I might miss the seeking. Not a chance.

Anything interesting to report?

I’m noticing a number of things. I barely relate to how I used to think on Friday – just before I saw for myself. I see rather than think now after all ‘thinking’ is a thought. The expression, ‘seeing for yourself there is no Self is nothing of what you think it is’ reveals itself to be a riddle! One I really like and helped very much.

The shift in perception is only beginning. I notice since seeing there is no Self, ‘seeing’ replaces ‘thinking’. To finally see there is no Self, the fear of oblivion had to be faced, and when it finally was it became obvious ‘it was a thought’ nothing more. The same with other emotive thoughts: Love, Hate, Fear, Death, etc. They’re all thoughts now, and looking a bit dusty too.

When things get a bit on top of me, it really doesn’t matter, sooner or later I’ll see again there is no Self, and nothing clings. – There will be no more Klingons!

Life is looking very interesting from here, suddenly it’s all about the journey and not the goal.


Thanks so much Ilona,
Love and appreciation
Nino

I have a huge smile on my face after reading your message! Yey!!
Are you ready for the final questions?
Is there any doubt at all?

Much love!

Hi Ilona,

Are you ready for the final questions?

Sure, fire away!

Is there any doubt at all?

No doubt at all. When I look into my mind for myself, I get back the thought ‘Self’, if I look at what that is, I get endless thoughts about the thought ‘Self’.

The odd thing is an intuitive leap was made somewhere, that flick from depending on thought to explain ’it’ to me, to seeing for myself.

I really can’t thank you enough!
Love Nino

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

And you are very welcome! It's my pleasure to be part of your journey.


Much love.

Hi Ilona,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Is there a Self in existence? - Looking into direct experience, no Self could be found. This was relatively straight forward because should I to find a Self it could not be me. It would have to be someone else. This led to the realisation that ‘I’ is the claim of ownership over being, that all being is the same being. After all, how can ‘being’ be separate from ‘being’.

Is there a Self in space? – This led me to look into nothing-ness for a non-existent Self. After all the absence of proof is not the proof of absence. So where is space, and it reveals itself not to be at all, and not even an idea can exist in that. When I looked into space I realised space doesn’t exist. Put another way ‘Space is not there’. It is totally unrelated. It is ‘the absolute’ it is the illusion of separation. Not only do I see space everywhere I look, everything is defined by space. There is space between thoughts, sounds, tastes, and so on. But space in itself doesn’t exist, it is the illusion of separation. Remove space, and there can be ‘not even one thing’. And there was no Self/I to be found.

Is there a Self in thought? – Finally I looked in the only place ‘Self had to hide’. Where in ‘thought’ could I find ‘Self’. The thought Self is obviously a thought. However thoughts point to other thoughts, attract other thoughts, are the illusion of thinking, are the illusion of asking questions, are the illusion of getting answers. Then the realisation, ‘in thought there is only ever more thought, infinitely so’ occurred. At this point an intuitive leap occurred, when the next thought as ‘I’ happened, there was no belief in it any longer.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Space, the final frontier: Without space there can be no separation, no-thing. And yet space is not anywhere. What a wonderful illusion….. of separation. Space is the illusion of the existing and non-existent. It separates things, it separates ideas, sounds, scents, touching, sensing… and it is nowhere.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I don’t know how to describe how I feel, but I can describe some of the things I am not feeling any longer. Anxiety, stress, impatience, boredom, urgency; I couldn’t say are gone entirely but are all becoming less and less apparent. Sooner or later they will be gone.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The realisation there is no Self in ‘thought’, just ‘thoughts’. Always more thoughts.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

To do, to decide, to intend, to choose, to control, to be – are all actions of a Self. And yet, in the absolute not even the idea of Self can exist. Ultimately what really is real? Deciding, intending, choosing, controlling are thoughts as much as Self is thought. In that regard, these are sensations that create experience but do not in themselves exist.

6) Anything to add?

This is an incredible journey. Out of curiosity this morning I asked the question ‘what is death?’ What I saw was more thoughts about death. But like no-self, no-death. Just more thoughts.
Last Friday I was still trying to use words to logically find what I was looking for, until I saw, now I am trying to use words to describe what I am looking at. Turns out I’m not very good at either one!
The reason there really isn’t anything much for me to add; anything I do think up I see as another thought, another story, so unless provoked with another question….

I simply cannot express my gratitude in words to you.
Love Nino

Dear nino,
Thank you so much for the answers. They are clear and I have no further questions, but one- do you have a Facebook account, I'd live to invite you to join the LU post gaters community :)

I really liked you answer to questions 2 and 4.
Sometimes there maybe situations, where thoughts can be believed again. But as long as you recognise them as thoughts, not reality, they can not stick for long.

This is a fresh start to exploration that leads to more awakening, more realisations, deepening and deconstruction, collapse of belief system. It can be smooth or intense, or smoothly intense, hehe, you will see how it unfolds for you. This journey is no longer driven by need to find out what you are, now it's about what this is. There is a lot to see if you keep looking.
The FB groups are great for support and sharing with others, exploring this further. I'll send you a pm on how to join them.

Much love to you! And a big hug.