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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:25 am

I’m going to have to scrape away some other concepts as well.
And well done at that!
As a tool to order stuff or a model of anything that goes on inside of us, “I” is really a failure.
So, these ‘I’s you have described, do any of them have free will? In other words, is there a way they can operate separately from the network of influences that constitute them?

Are they different from the you that is
still circling around what appears to be nothing.
?
If so, what is this you that is still circling? Is there also another 'you' that is in control of that? :-) Please really focus intentions to See what is happening, the way you have been watching these "I"s and thoughts! Step back and focus and observer first, then describe. When I was being guided, one of the major delayers was that, as I was Looking, I was also composing responses to my guide.
Only watching things dissolve.
Good work.
And when all those concepts are dissolved, what might be left except direct experience?

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:57 am

So, these ‘I’s you have described, do any of them have free will? In other words, is there a way they can operate separately from the network of influences that constitute them?

No, no free will. But I’ve argued against free will since I was a teenager. Perhaps I have developed all kinds of concepts and beliefs around “no free will” that needs to be dropped? . . . I see now that I’ve never really followed the logic of no free will all the way through, that the arguments were just a way to distinguish myself. But one result may be that my “I” is experienced as more passive than active--more of a reactor and analyzer than a doer.
what is this you that is still circling? Is there also another 'you' that is in control of that? :-) Please really focus intentions to See what is happening, the way you have been watching these "I"s and thoughts! Step back and focus and observer first, then describe. When I was being guided, one of the major delayers was that, as I was Looking, I was also composing responses to my guide.
Yeah, I also compose responses while looking. That’s why the process often works better when doing light activities—or even when arguing with my mom—because the composer isn’t there spinning theories. But even then, there is a sense of somebody who is watching these activities and thoughts, even if he is not composing at the moment.

I’m not sure if you’re asking me to try and relax and just see without a seer; or to observe the observer? If I relax and focus on sensations without labelling anything (imagining I am an infant helps to get started), the sense of “me” observing objects sometimes fades away and there are just sensations. Is anybody observing these sensations? It feels like there is. But I can’t find that person—hard to even know where to start looking. It’s like trying to see my own eyes. How can the observer see itself? Is it reflected somewhere? It seems to be reflected in the question itself. But the question is just a thought. The reflection should disappear with the thought. But the thought doesn’t go away so long as I am looking for that observer . . . . until one of those agitated thoughts about my girlfriend or money stomps through and monopolizes attention again (those thoughts are making this exercise kind of difficult today).

There is still that sense of something elusive—whether I just can’t see it or it is so simple that I just can’t acknowledge it. I can think of two other situations in which this sense of the observer is not present. I am not sure if they are getting in the way or pointing in the right direction:

One is while engaged in some tasks. It doesn’t always happen—sometimes the mind wanders or is very self-conscious. But sometimes the tasks just get done, and it is only in hindsight that I realize that nobody was paying attention. Thoughts happened about the task, but they came and went.. . . And then I wonder, is this what you guys are pointing at when you say it is so simple?

The second has only happened a couple of times in just the past month, when I’ve been paying close attention to feelings and sensations as I did today. Suddenly, for a split second or so that sense of me calming down and watching gave way to selfless awareness. And, wow, this felt like something totally different—a letting go far beyond any letting go I’ve ever done, the collapse of separation; nothing at all like the task-completion described above; nothing like any mystical experience that I’ve had, nothing like focusing attention on sensations. Calling it simple or obvious seems beside the point. . . .

But I’m not sure what to do with these moments. It’s the only thing I’ve ever experienced that feels anything like emptiness, void, non-dualism, loss of self, or anything like that. I can see why it might take years to recompile if this were an abiding awareness. . . . On the other hand, maybe it’s just a state and I shouldn’t pay much attention to it. I’m just muddying things again when I try to project other people’s descriptions of realization on to it. This may be what creates that sense of elusiveness, because it makes me expect something other than what I actually see.

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:50 pm

OK, I’m going to ask you some questions.
They are for you to look at, not questions for you to give me answers to.
So please just read one at a time, and give each some composing-free :-) attention/observation before moving to the next question, ok?

Start by closing your eyes and just observe/experience whatever it is that has been labelled as ‘self’ or ‘someone’ as something unto itself---- but without labels and concepts. Really, take a moment and do that before proceeding.

Even without the label, that thing/experience labelled as ‘self’ or ‘someone’ is/was still there, right?

And it is just as real as color, sound, flavor, images, thoughts, or anything else that occurs in Direct Experience, isn’t it?

But as you know, thoughts/concepts/labels are not identical to the things they point to. The label 'red' is not the same as what appears in DE that is labelled red. The label is not a property of that to which it refers.

And sometimes labels are even mistaken, aren't they?

Before proceeding, please think of some instances where you may have experienced mistaken labels or concepts.

OK, good. So those labels of 'self' or 'somebody' or 'me' are not actually properties of this thing in DE to which those labels point, are they?

If any of the above does not your experience, please let me know.

And if the above does fit your experience, please for the next day just be with this experience that has been labelled “self’. Let it just exist in DE with all the other things that come and go such as sound, smell, thoughts, etc. But, to the best of your ability, without the labels. Or at least, as distinct from the labels.
And when “composing” happens, steer away from it onto the DE :-)

Then let me know what’s that’s like for you.

Cheers,
P.

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:26 pm

Hi Pablo,
Even without the label, that thing/experience labelled as ‘self’ or ‘someone’ is/was still there, right?
And it is just as real as color, sound, flavor, images, thoughts, or anything else that occurs in Direct Experience, isn’t it?
Actually, no. I first saw it arising as something constantly attached to something else—feelings, reactions, thoughts about the future. It is often implied as the subject or object of other things: A worry, a thought about somebody else, pride that I’ve watched the thoughts without distraction for a while, etc. It doesn’t exist on its own.

After reading this second question, however, I deliberately pondered labels like “I” and “Self” and could not find any content to them at all. Just all kinds of fragments that don’t fit together into a coherent self, such as: the reflection of my face, a worry about the future, the act of writing this. The observer that is watching all of this is the only thing not obviously attached to something else. But it is not there all of the time.
Before proceeding, please think of some instances where you may have experienced mistaken labels or concepts.
No problem here. I was a social scientist. I made a living both creating and criticizing mistaken labels ☺
as you know, thoughts/concepts/labels are not identical to the things they point to. The label 'red' is not the same as what appears in DE that is labelled red. The label is not a property of that to which it refers.
So the observer is not me.
. . . And not an observer either?
please for the next day just be with this experience that has been labelled “self’. Let it just exist in DE with all the other things that come and go such as sound, smell, thoughts, etc. But, to the best of your ability, without the labels. Or at least, as distinct from the labels.
And when “composing” happens, steer away from it onto the DE :-)
I’ve been trying to just note “me” as it comes and goes throughout the day; not looking for patterns or explanations. Not much more to add yet, except that it comes and goes a lot and can appear in lots of subtle ways. Sometimes its funny, sometimes frustrating.

. . . . and as I write this, it seems that those "subtle ways" need not be identified as "self". They could be labelled as any number of things.

In observation, Adam

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:50 pm

I like your style!
those "subtle ways" need not be identified as "self"
You're doing great.

So, if there is no free will, and all these things that have been labelled as self are either ideas or things that come and go, what is there (and everywhere) when they are not?
It's all in your conscious awareness at any given moment; in fact, there's nothing anywhere but it.
Just LOOK!

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:39 pm

Another way of asking the question:
Are there any 'parts' of what's happening doing other 'parts' of what's happening?
You haven't been able to find any inside Adam, but are there any little 'selves' or 'free willies' anywhere?

What is there when you Look?

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:25 am

Hi Pablo,
Not much to write tonight. Still looking & not letting the composer get a foothold. Lots of thoughts, feelings, etc. rattling through, and the emotions are very volatile (which is very disorienting for my girlfriend). Keep reminding myself to look at what is behind everything, and then to look what is behind the reminder. But the stuff just keeps rattling on and on.

Adam

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:28 pm

Yeah, it does keep rattling on. Especially stuff that has lots of emotional connections, like girlfriends and moms. I remember many years ago doing my first 7 day zen sesshin, i had to work really really hard to stay concentrated for the first 4 days because my knees were killing me. Finally on the 5th day gave in and put on some kind of salve that really worked, and all that forced concentration paid off with a few days of the most beautiful clarity ever. It wasn't Seeing, and it didn't last, but it was beautiful.

Like you said earlier, all those thoughts seem so important while happening, then a little later are realized to be of no real import. You're doing the right thing by focusing on finding the supposed 'thinker of the thoughts', and not on the content. The more you focus on content, the more real it seems, and stronger gets the "this is me thinking" illusion.

It's hard now, but hang in there.
Pablo

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:58 am

Hi Pablo,
Still nothing much to say. There was a period of frustration today, listing out all the reasons I can’t get anywhere with this. Constructed a nice big story, but it went away.

Also some periods of boredom. I look and think: “Yeah, yeah, nobody’s there. The thought just comes and goes; and so does this one. We know that already. What’s next?”

I’ve also been doing a couple other things along with the looking—usually to calm down a bit, or to help focus when boredom or distraction kicks in. I know I’m not supposed to draw on other stuff while doing this, so I’ll run them by you here to see if they are appropriate.

1) The Douglas Harding exercise in which you have no face and open up to everything within the field of vision as all that there is. This helps to focuses especially when walking or on the subway.
2) Letting thoughts melt away into bodily sensations. This always reminds me that thoughts and sensations aren’t necessarily what they appear to be at first glance. Also helps a lot when I get too focused on the content of a thought.

I actually learned #2 from a voice in an ayahuasca session during a retreat in Peru last year. The first night I saw big red letters "F*CK INSIGHTS!" But the next couple of nights I still kept on analyzing and narrativizing and nothing much happened. Then a voice said, "This is what you have to do. Just let the words melt into your body. Let the thoughts become vibrations." After that--it wasn't Seeing and it didn't last--but it was sure mind-blowing and life-changing.

Keeping at it.
Best, Adam

Best,
Adam

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:06 am

Simplify.

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:18 pm

This morning, eyes closed, thoughts started to appear as happening in space. Since they only filled a very small part of the space and appeared in different places, it was clear they weren’t me. The space could extend to include the tingling in my feet and other sensations. The composer came, talking about this whole experience. It seemed to stand outside of the space, but when I looked, it turned out to be a very small thing and the space could easily expand to include it.

So, what is this space? I asked. Who is having thoughts/sensations about it? The process started to flounder there. A couple of times it was incorporated into a bigger space in response to this question. But that led to the same question.

It is a nice, big space, but it still seems to be a bounded space; given that I can ask questions about it and it can change size. . . . .Does this make any sense?

Adam

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:34 pm

Hi Pablo, haven’t heard from you for a while.

I’m getting a lot more consistent at looking at my thoughts and seeing nothing behind them. Even in my dreams last night: “Who is sleeping? Is anybody really dreaming this?”

Couple of things have come up.
1) I see that I’ve long imagined ego as this as this mysterious agent plotting to deceive and preserve itself at all costs. Even at the time it seemed kind of silly and improbable. But I can see now that it was still a sticking point. It’s REALLY silly.

2) Re: the sense that “something is eluding me.”

Looking back over the thread, I can see that some past sticking points, combativeness and looking in the wrong place, which are now not nearly so strong. I can now go through the day looking at the place where nothing will be found with relative ease. And, well, there’s nothing to elude me because there’s nothing there. The impulse to defend any version of self is gone. Even the sense of an “I” who observes is a lot less sticky. But nothing feels any clearer, nothing is any more liberated. The main difference is that there are a lot more thoughts about finding and trying to look at nothing.

I know you guys emphasize that nothing will change. Yet reading through the threads and Gateless Gatecrashers, there are so many examples that belie this. They are filled with sudden realizations, epiphanies, emotional catharses, new attitudes, feelings of liberation, etc. Even the final question “What is the last bit that pushed you over?” and the common insistence by Ilona and Elena that once you see it you will never go back; both give a sense of a moment when things change. But I am not aware of any change.

The sense that “something is eluding me” revolves around this. How do I know if I’ve seen through the self if there are no indicators, other than the fact that attention focuses more readily on where there is nothing? . . . I suppose I could point to things like a lessening of frustration and combativeness; increased ease at letting thoughts and feelings go their ways. But similar things have happened to me before, only to be reversed.

. . . . . OK, I'm clearly getting hung up on other people's threads as a mirror in which to see "me". This evening I’ll read the last couple of unread chapters in Gateless Gatecrashers, with attention to the stories that my thoughts are constructing around them . . .

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:44 pm

Hi Adam,

Sorry for the delay.
I had some computer problems, but have been going back over all your last posts yesterday and today. Was even doing so while you were writing.

You seem clearly convinced that there's no Adam guiding or directing things. You’ve had some interesting experiences; the ‘collapse of separation’ you wrote of on July 10 sounds like a real glimpse of Seeing, whereas some of the others, such as the most recent re a ‘space,’ sound like just comings and goings of temporary states. Perhaps related to the 2 exercises you mentioned.

I love the commitment revealed by
Even in my dreams last night: “Who is sleeping? Is anybody really dreaming this?”
And I’m committed to you until you’re certain.
To that end, I'll run this by a few other guides for their input.

Seems clear to me that you're moving in the right direction, getting closer, but as you say there is usually a sense of something like delight, gratitude, clarity, and/or liberation--but not always.

Going back to "Gateless" is always a good idea; do be aware/cautious of getting caught up in ideas of what "should' be happening.

Meanwhile could you explain more about "attention focuses more readily on where there is nothing?"

P.

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Eggplane
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Re: Ready

Postby Eggplane » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:21 pm

Meanwhile could you explain more about "attention focuses more readily on where there is nothing?"
Yes, here are two examples:
At the beginning of this process, I kept getting caught up in speculations about how the “communication I” functions (I was a social scientist: plenty of theories to work with!). And when Behzad told me to look, I kept seeing thoughts, sensations, feelings, labels, etc. constantly merging, reacting, emerging out of each other—the unpredictable ripples on the waves of an enormous ocean. I resisted what I felt as the pressure to say they came from “nowhere”—thinking that the enormous complexity and unpredictability of these ripples was, for all intents and purposes, as good as nowhere.

Then on July 4 you wrote, “it’s all just aspects of the same always changing Thing.” You may remember that I had the impulse to disagree, even though I really liked the way you said it. We may even have different understandings of what you wrote, but I realized that it doesn’t matter. Why keep looking at the mechanics of how thoughts work, when the point is to look past the labels? If I keep looking at the mechanics, I will always see “me” as this complicated and elusive thing—rather than just looking directly and seeing that it’s complicated and elusive because it is not there!

And then last night I read the last couple of dialogs in Gatecrashers. Feelings of envy, competition, embarrassment, superiority, skepticism, etc. emerged as I read. So I followed those feelings, and the first place I went was into stories about my childhood, my need to be unique, how I have defined my uniqueness, etc. I was creating all kinds of stories about my particular patterns and conditioning.

I saw what was happening and stepped back, read a bit more and tried to note only the original raw feelings in my body. I felt vibrations and tensions in my body. I saw that as soon as I tried to analyze those feelings, I got a label like “envy.” Those labelled emotions did not have have the “me” label directly attached, but seemed to imply “me”. Then as soon as I followed that implication, I went right into the stories and “deeper” causes, and it was me, Me, me, me, I, Me, Me, me all the way down.

So back to the question about “attention focuses on where there is nothing”: A couple of weeks ago, I might have followed these stories out for 10 minutes or more, with endless reiterations. Last night, they dropped away pretty easily—once I saw what was happening there was no more than half second of “wait, wait, let’s just follow this one thought out to its conclusion” and then it was gone. And attention back to “What the heck was that ‘me’ riding on the back of all of those stories?” And instead of theorizing how those me’s got there, I saw that they were only thoughts and didn’t worry about them.

Despite all this, something still feels elusive as I've mentioned in past posts. And the same feelings still pop up when I read Gatecrashers.

So, another long-winded post. Thanks for all your patience, Pablo.

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pozablo
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Re: Ready

Postby pozablo » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 pm

If I keep looking at the mechanics, I will always see “me” as this complicated and elusive thing—rather than just looking directly and seeing that it’s complicated and elusive because it is not there!
Good observation. The complications and noise and confusion are just thought/concept layers bubbling up from….everywhere/nowhere. [ How’s that for a word? :-) ] They can obscure the ‘truth’ only when they carry the façade of ‘real’ or ‘important’ or ‘my fault’. When that façade is seen as false, nothing is left but truth.
last night I read the last couple of dialogs in Gatecrashers. Feelings of envy, competition, embarrassment, superiority, skepticism, etc. emerged as I read.
Beautiful honesty.
OK, reciprocation. I too have been plagued all my life with those same kinds of manifestations of "need" to be unique. When I first Saw, the very first thought that came up was images of someone recognizing that there was something special going on and asking me about it and I’d say “I am awake”. Followed by amusement that that crap was still coming up, followed by “well of course it will come up, why not? it just doesn’t mean anything..it’s just a thought”. As time goes by, without taking those thoughts/feelings at face value, they lose power only to become just become little hiccups. Ripples on the water. Sometimes they even carry a feeling of importance, urgency, but then shortly that too is seen as just something that happened. So what?
once I saw what was happening there was no more than half second of “wait, wait, let’s just follow this one thought out to its conclusion” and then it was gone. And attention back to “What the heck was that ‘me’ riding on the back of all of those stories?” And instead of theorizing how those me’s got there, I saw that they were only thoughts and didn’t worry about them…… Despite all this, something still feels elusive as I've mentioned in past posts. And the same feelings still pop up when I read Gatecrashers.
Several other guides have taken a look at our thread here, and even started a thread on a site for guides only about whether the ‘fireworks’ are important for awakening. There is concensus that they do not, and that people’s expectations often persist even after Seeing, with the feeling ‘this can’t be enough’.

So let me just ask you—is there a doer of anything anywhere? Are there doers inside other people?
So, another long-winded post. Thanks for all your patience, Pablo.
Happy to be here!


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