Life, living itself...

[Garsius Tyla]

"This is what is bugging me, looking but not seeing, it`s like gazing into darkness."

"If i inspect my mind about the self, answers seem to revolve around habit + identification with thoughts/mind"

"When i try to look beyond mind and thought, i get nothing, it`s like a silence"

"There seems to be an "I" sometimes, but just a thought as any other. When i try to look for it specifically, it`s really nothing there."

"There is no choice maker, i only assumed there`s a category of thoughts that tend to that task. The choice is made based on criteria based on past experience or estimation, thoughts based on thoughts, being put in motion to perform a task"

"When looking like i described above, I cannot see a centre."

"No matter how many times i looked, i can`t find a solid "I""

"I couldn`t complete the "turn awareness to that looking part". Couldn`t find anything to be aware of in the looking"

"I cannot see an entity but there lurks the assumption of an entity"

"It`s not me, just a bad habit, a very sticky one it seems."

This is some quotes from your posts. Can you read them carefully, and write down what comes?

Stay here. You are close.

[Masauwu]

I will answer your questions honestly, but it`s fair to tell you that i have no more expectations from this method; maybe what works for some people doesn`t work for others. The mindfulness training i was telling you about eventually comes to the realization of no self among other things, except it takes time and a more relaxed approach.

This is some quotes from your posts. Can you read them carefully, and write down what comes?

The memory of the moments i wrote those is very vivid as i read them again now. The underlined ones are pointing to the fact that you are trying to make me know directly, and yet that realization doesn`t come.

[Garsius Tyla]

Look. Mindfulness did not contradict with that what we are doing here.
For example.

Use that training on this:

The memory of the moments i wrote those is very vivid as i read them again now. The underlined ones are pointing to the fact that you are trying to make me know directly, and yet that realization doesn`t come.

I asked you to look, what comes after you read quotes.
If you was mindful, you would replay something like this:

"The moments, like vivid pictures about past happened". "Thought - "still that realisation doesn't come to me" appeared also".

See the difference?

[Garsius Tyla]

I mean: now you see content of your thought, not a form of it. By this you are in this thought, automatically - YOU ARE. IF you don't believe in thought that happens, just observe it by seeing it like a FORM, then automatically - there is NO YOU. You are free. Check it. How that happens?

[Masauwu]

If you mean objectifying thoughts (watching them as objects coming and going), i can do that, but not in the way you want me to, because there`s still a watcher who sees them come and go. The rational conclusion that this watcher is invisible therefore he doesn`t exist - this is the part that i can`t put into practice. Simply insisting on this thing repeatedly will not make it happen.

[Garsius Tyla]

If you mean objectifying thoughts (watching them as objects coming and going), i can do that, but not in the way you want me to, because there`s still a watcher who sees them come and go. The rational conclusion that this watcher is invisible therefore he doesn`t exist - this is the part that i can`t put into practice. Simply insisting on this thing repeatedly will not make it happen.

What stand behind this resistance?
You sound like a kid: " yes, I understand, that my father is playing Santa and you can tell me repeatedly, that there is no Santa - I don't buy that. I'll better CLOSE MY EYES and believe Santa is somewhere there. He is good, he is nice, I don't want live without him".

[Masauwu]

I can`t truly see something just because someone tells it to me and i understand it intellectually. It just doesn`t happen, i don`t know why. You seem to think that i do it on purpose. If i could see what is the cause of this resistance, it would be gone in the next second.

[Garsius Tyla]

I don't see you are doing it on purpose. But under that resistance there must be an idea/ideas. Search for them. Search till you find. What other can you do if there is intellectual understanding?

Some ideas to look:

Im awareness
Im being
Im Higher Self
Im consciousness
I must be somewhere, somewhat.
Im ... you tell me

[Masauwu]

maybe what works for some people doesn`t work for others.

Do you not agree with this? The fact that you know something to be true by experiencing it doesn`t automatically mean that the method of pointing it to others is infallible in every imaginable scenario.

Some ideas to look:
Im awareness
Im being
Im Higher Self
Im consciousness
I must be somewhere, somewhat.
Im ... you tell me

I am the someone to whom the bits of "my" localized reality is happening. I am the sense of me that cannot be debunked by an idea. I can`t pinpoint a final definition, a picture or a location. But this is a mind game, we can keep chasing these things forever, analyzing every word and checking every corner - there will always be a next corner if we take this route.

[Garsius Tyla]

Masauwu wrote:
maybe what works for some people doesn`t work for others.

Do you not agree with this?

Nope. You can fail only if you fade away, or begin to fool around. Look at that what forcing you to give up here? What is it?

The fact that you know something to be true by experiencing it doesn`t automatically mean that the method of pointing it to others is infallible in every imaginable scenario.

So there is expectation you will get some experience here? That maybe a problem in your way. Actually you must lose, not get something here. Lose a BELIEF, that there is YOU. Nothing less, nothing more. No ecstasy, no bliss, no fireworks. Simple as that.

I am the sense of me that cannot be debunked by an idea

No problem with that sense. Let it be. It will vanish by itself. Look for YOU behind that sense, because you cannot be that thing you are aware of, true?

[Masauwu]

Masauwu wrote:
maybe what works for some people doesn`t work for others.
Do you not agree with this?

Nope. You can fail only if you fade away, or begin to fool around. Look at that what forcing you to give up here? What is it?

I`m sure you sensed i started this thing leaving any doubt aside, but at this point i can`t ignore the outcome. Nothing is forcing me to give up on this method, it`s a choice based on the fact that for a few days i gave it my best effort to follow instructions and look and answer honestly, and in return i got frustration, stress and misery (no blaming whatsoever to you, just describing my experience) resulted from failure after failure piling up.

The fact that you insist on the same thing over and over again even though you saw repeatedly that it has no effect on me means that you are not entirely sure about how this method works, if this is even a method. Reading "saw what happened to many RTers after getting liberated. There were some massive swells of ego and rigidity in thinking." in this post a few minutes ago didn`t help either and makes me think that what is called liberation here is in fact a commercialy overrated title for a psychological game. I didn`t intend for this post to sound so harsh, it`s just my opinion after taking everything i`ve seen so far into consideration.

[Garsius Tyla]

it`s a choice

You have no choice. Ever. We are already clear about that, remember? You do what you are forced to do.

in return i got frustration, stress and misery

Not you got those. But "frustration, stress and misery" got you. That forces you to make "choice" as described above.

it`s a choice based on the fact that for a few days i gave it my best effort to follow instructions and look and answer honestly

Ohh really... "few days". Sure, go on few years of your mindfulness training, that surely do the trick.

The fact that you insist on the same thing over and over again even though you saw repeatedly that it has no effect on me means that you are not entirely sure about how this method works, if this is even a method

Yes, this idea gonna help you to run away without any pain.

Reading "saw what happened to many RTers after getting liberated. There were some massive swells of ego and rigidity in thinking." in this post a few minutes ago didn`t help either and makes me think that what is called liberation here is in fact a commercialy overrated title for a psychological game. I didn`t intend for this post to sound so harsh, it`s just my opinion after taking everything i`ve seen so far into consideration

And this idea helps too.

[Masauwu]

You have no choice. Ever. We are already clear about that, remember? You do what you are forced to do.

That would mean everything i do here is pointless. As i see it, we all have choices. We were never clear about this, it seems sometimes you are making suggestions and you insist on me adopting them although you use the word "see". Can you please explain to me how your method of liberation works? Confusion creates doubt.

Not you got those. But "frustration, stress and misery" got you.

Correct, because of the "me" identification. But if i can`t see past this "me" despite all our attempts, what would motivate a rational person to continue this method indefinitely? Not even knowing how it`s supposed to work.

Ohh really... "few days". Sure, go on few years of your mindfulness training, that surely do the trick.

I noticed solid and clear positive results in less than a week with this method. You yourself said you were impressed. Sure, major breakthroughs like liberation could be years away, but it still seems the rational choice to me based on evidence.

Yes, this idea gonna help you to run away without any pain.

I am still here, i chose to have a choice. ;) I`m sorry if the description of the experience upset you a bit, i didn`t mean it to sound personal and i still admire your determination. I would have given up long ago, i am curious what your motivation is to keep trying on what it seems to me a hopeless case.

[Garsius Tyla]

I'm not going for discussion about method. This would lead you nowhere.

That would mean everything i do here is pointless.

Read this thread again, especially places where you saw for yourself, how choices are made. If it is not clear ask here after. We will look at it again.

But if i can`t see past this "me" despite all our attempts, what would motivate a rational person to continue this method indefinitely?

You cannot see "past this me" because there is no "this me". You can't, because after some quite successful attempts in a beginning, you actually dropped investigating an turned your attention to "finger" - pointer. That not gonna lead you somewhere except to more confusion.

I see only 2 ways for this to end successfully.

1. You are taking brake from this. Going to your practice. After getting bored from it, you return here. We finish this.
This is almost impossible way - even after failing in mindfulness technic, your mind desperately gonna search for more and more sophisticated methods, Till you get totally tired of that all. Who know when it gonna happen?

2. You are reading this thread, writing down all questions/pointers from it and looking inside investigating what those point TO. If after investigating 1 pointer, you are not sure about something, you make question here.

You need return to relaxed honest looking. Don't let your thoughts wonder around.

[Masauwu]

When one sees how the tricks are being done, they stop having the effect. I am relaxed now. :)

You are sincere in your effort to do good, but what is called liberation here is a deception. I hope you will see that one day.