Thread for Gunasara

[Gunasara]

something i read surfaced last night...

"most immature beings grasp consciousness as an 'I', and the remaining heaps as 'mine'...

and i began to think that i am really vague about consciousness

it manifests as a sense of presence or aliveness... but that is easily confused with awareness

also need to look at initiative and drive and how those qualities somehow get mixed with the pair of eyes in space to continue the belief in self...

i have not seen self labels for a little while... but i shall have a look at this stuff this morning

[jowate]

Hi G,

i am doubting that i have seen it all

i keep selfing around the body image and sensations and location in space and thought and inner voice

these are not arising in disinterested awareness

Just noting (bearing in mind your subsequent post mitigates what you wrote here): ‘i keep selfing’ – ‘selfing’ happens without an ‘i’ doing it – it’s just conditionality and part of the conditions arising are thoughts of ‘me doing this’, and other thoughts believing these thoughts. It’s all smoke and mirrors.

Awareness is always ‘disinterested’ – if judgments or views are arising, this is mental activity.

Well I don't know... I say there is selfing going on but I'm not so sure there is... As I look I see grasping and flapping about... There is body image and the voice in my head Has a recognisable tone etc... But I am not seeing 'self' labels flying about... Self is just a thought... Clinging is clinging.... Head getting in way of direct experience is just head getting in way of direct experience...neither of those are self

Should any of this be sorted out by seeing through self?

Whatever is habitually experienced (and then labelled ‘me’) in terms of ‘this’ body-mind will always be recognised as (evidently) 'personal' or characteristic – that’s not going to change and in fact it doesn’t need to change – it has nothing to do with how suffering / unsatisfactoriness is given rise to.

Seeing and knowing that none of this is a ‘self’ simply means that whenever any of this apparent ‘selfing’ happens, a moment’s ‘stepping back’ and it’s obvious that no self is doing this. Nor ever was.

'self' is just a thought

Yes, exactly.

and i began to think that i am really vague about consciousness

it manifests as a sense of presence or aliveness... but that is easily confused with awareness

‘Consciousness’ (the way I use it) is awareness ‘mitigated’ by the self-view. Awareness itself is not and cannot be divided, but when a separate ‘self’ is believed in, that belief that there is a separate ‘self’ and ‘other’ apparently overrides the direct experience of undivided awareness. In other words, the deluded belief creates a kind of ‘perceptual unclarity’ and until it’s investigated in direct experience and seen directly that no such ‘self’ ever existed in the first place, that unclarity clouds all perceptions. When that self view is seen through, ‘the doors of perception are cleansed’. ‘Presence’, ‘aliveness’ and ‘awareness’ are all pointing to the same ‘thing’ in direct experience. No-thing, of course!

i have not seen self labels for a little while...

Labels come and go: just notice that they don’t refer to any really-existing entity!

T.

[Gunasara]

i'm finding it much easier to move into 'direct experience' currently... memories of work i did some years ago from the book 'drawing from right-side of brain' in which i was astonished at the different pictures i could draw when drawing from an idea and when drawing from the details of the reality in front of my eyes... suddenly this is crossing over into 'seeing' the remarkable difference between sensations mediated by the idea 'body' and sensations simply seen... particularly the 'breath' is changing as the whole idea of breath fades away... and am 'looking' at thought before thinking and the 'whole of it' before the idea of the 'skandhas'...

the 'self' is just a thought...

but when present it can make the difference between drawing a stick man version of reality... or painting a universe...

...

it is my son's 4th birthday today... so whilst there is little space to sit and explore the stillness... i will be 'looking' at the play of the day with open eyes...

[jowate]

Ok, I'll await further observations. If the self-view is really seen through, consider whether you'd like to start addressing the final questions (which will clarify where it all stands and whether any further questions need to be looked at).

T.

[Gunasara]

memories are surfacing and i am feeling confusion and some grief... who was it standing at his mother's funeral... who was it in the birthing pool helping to deliver his son... meditating on a mountainside in spain... buying his first car... sitting on his grandmothers balcony surrounded by family and 3 years old... who was there?

the whole story... a misunderstanding

this body-mind has a woven narrative that needs to reset itself somehow... but i guess that is for later

feel free to ask the questions... i feel like i'm in a slow motion seeing ...

[jowate]

Hi G,

Ok, here are the questions – up to you whether you post your responses one by one or all together. If you do them one by one, it does allow a bit more opportunity for me to ask questions for clarification as you go. But either is fine.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

T.

[Gunasara]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I have seen that in direct experience, contrary to what I believed, there is no 'self', 'me' 'I' at all other than simply as a thought that was then believed to be true. There was never any 'self' in the way that 'I' firmly believed there was a 'self'. It was an illusion and has been an illusion throughout time.

[jowate]

Great, thanks ... keep 'em coming!
T.

[Gunasara]

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

a sensation arises which could simply be experienced... the mind labels the experience in a relatively useful way, say 'leg'... the mind then moves into delusion when it adds to the label another label 'my'... once 'my leg' is established the story of 'me' continues

a sensation arises which could simply be experienced... the mind labels the sensations in a relatively useful way as 'eyes'... the mind then moves into delusion when it confuses the sensation of 'eyes' with the visual experience of the moment... the sensation around the 'eyes' become the 'one who sees', 'me' a 'self' looking out at a universe

an image arises which could simply be experienced... the mind labels the image in a relatively useful way as 'shape of body'... the mind then moves into delusion when it adds to that label the label 'my'... the 'shape of my body' is established and again the story of 'me' rolls on

thinking arises... the mind labels the thinking in a relatively useful way as 'doubt'... the mind then moves into delusion when it believes that 'doubt' implies a possibility of a 'self'... and again the story of 'me' flows on

this body-mind notices that it's sensitivity is confined within the bounds of the senses related to this body-mind... this relatively true 'limit' is then labelled as 'self'... not simply seen

so in many and various ways the 'self' story latches onto experience ... habitually reinforcing it's place in the psyche...

[Gunasara]

this body-mind notices that it's sensitivity is confined within the bounds of the senses related to this body-mind... this relatively true 'limit' is then labelled as 'self'... not simply seen

no...'limited'/'unlimited' is some kind of story about what 'direct experience' could be... as i write this it doesn't seem true...

'i don't know' is more true...

more 'doubt'...

none of it is an 'entity' called 'self'

[Gunasara]

spinning from hindrance to hindrance this evening... whilst none of it is self... this is not what was expected

[Gunasara]

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

doubt... confusion... anger... envy... anxiety... pride

you name it ...

there have been times where i have felt clear and free of the pressure of believing in the many thoughts that flitter in the mind...

but to be honest i need to include all of the above...

i miss the positivity that came from my focused practise which was working well before i began this investigation...

so add ungrateful to the list... (superficially at least)

i am not ready to quit until this has been seen through and witnessed...

i think that beneath the bluster and irritation there is a clear sense of the importance of this work and how valuable the insight that has occurred ...or will occur if my doubts are to be believed ... which even if they are don't constitute an 'entity' called self etc etc

and i'm very impressed that an online conversation can have such an effect...

a drop into direct experience is more accessible and more valued

[jowate]

Hi G,

i think that beneath the bluster and irritation there is a clear sense of the importance of this work and how valuable the insight that has occurred ...or will occur if my doubts are to be believed ... which even if they are don't constitute an 'entity' called self etc etc

Bear in mind that seeing the absence of separate self isn't going to mean life becomes less bumpy, or that you've suddenly become perfect! Habit patterns are still there. The difference is in the way the habit patterns are seen / related to - they are not bought into, or not for very long. Can you see this in your experience, underneath the grumpiness?

Suggest you give this one a bit more time - as you're doing in the quoted bit here, look more at what's beneath, what's different.

T.

[Gunasara]

well currently when i calm down i just seem unhappy and very very confused... i can't see how what happens happens without self... i don't see who people are without themselves... i can see that it is true... and now almost literally do not know my a*** from my elbow...

i know that essentially nothing has changed... there was no self and there is now no self... but the loss of the belief in self is something... my mind keeps trying to go back there because at least then 'I' had a plan...

now just panic ... (or so the story of the morning goes)

[jowate]

An unsubstantiated belief has been seen through - i.e. a non-existent 'entity' is known to be non-existent. So, what is left? Well, look and see: is the capacity to experience the reality of the senses gone? Is the capacity to think, wonder, imagine and plan gone? Is sensitivity and love gone? In fact, is anything gone that was there before apart from the belief that all this is due to some kind of separate entity? 'You' are exactly everything that 'you' were before - the experiential basis on which the separate 'self' was imputed is still what it was. It's not surprising that there is disorientation and resistance - just let there be a kindly awareness around that and let the process of assimilation of what has been seen continue. As it will, whatever the mental states are 'saying' right now.

T.