Would someone be willing to guide me please?

[kvotski]

. Thoughts aren't part of the real world, they're a fantasy.
Sometimes they are about the real world, and sometimes that's useful, but they are still just passing by.


feel a bit like I am going in circles here. Maybe I'm expecting some kind of fanfare to tell me I'm on the right track. I feel that once I've accepted or seen that the self is just passing thoughts then that should create some permanent change in my perception. Am I wandering way off track here Sunil?

No, Matt. Thoughts are not fantasy. Only thoughts that have an I, me or self attached to them are illusory. Check this out.
Is thinking about the body a fantasy? How about your body?
Is thinking about shoes a fantasy? How about those being your shoes?

Going in circles or recognizing the circles is good. What does this circle consist of? Don't be vague or muggy as you say. Details will help.

What fanfare do you expect?

Is your perception the same as it was before? If yes, what else should happen?

You can't go off the track, Matt. It's not possible to start believing in Santa again? Is it?

[kvotski]

Hi Matt,

Let us review all we have done. Your doubts have been in the form of a belief that there is an I or self operating within you. This can not sit at the same table as I is an illusion.

So, let me ask you to justify your belief that there is a Matt, anywhere. Go for it fill the pages on why you think there is an entity called Matt? But you have to follow the rules you agreed to, direct observation and experience. No concepts, ideas or hunches. Real stuff.

Give it a real test and lets see.

[Matt13]

So, let me ask you to justify your belief that there is a Matt, anywhere. Go for it fill the pages on why you think there is an entity called Matt? But you have to follow the rules you agreed to, direct observation and experience. No concepts, ideas or hunches. Real stuff.

Hi Sunil.

I'm just going to throw this out without editing and see what happens.

There must be a Matt because there has been a Matt for my whole life. Everyone looks at me and calls me Matt. When I look in the mirror I see Matt. When I think it is Matt thinking. Matt makes decisions about what to do. Matt loves people. Matt mourns people. Matt laughs when something is funny and is astonished when something is unexpected or brilliant. Matt eats. Matt drinks.Matt goes to work. Matt types forum responses. Matt thinks about going out and enjoying the sun.

Those are the instant reasons why there is a Matt.

Now I'm going to check that list against the rules of direct observation and experience.

"There has been a Matt my whole life"
My evidence for this is memory, and other people telling me their memories. I can only directly observe and experience what is happening right now.

"Everyone looks at me and calls me Matt"
This is true, they do. I could show you that. But that just shows that they think there is a Matt. They see my body and label it Matt. They can't see what is inside, they can't see my thoughts.

"When I look in the mirror I see Matt"
When I look in the mirror I see a reflection of the body. My thoughts label it Matt, and in that conventional sense it is a reflection of Matt. But it's only a reflection in a mirror.

"When I think it is Matt thinking"
I can't show it to you, but I can observe that I think. More correctly, I can observe that thoughts happen.I can't see what is thinking. I can't see a Matt thinking. I can see a thought that Matt is thinking.

"Matt makes decisions about what to do"
It seems that way, but when I look closely decisions seem to make themselves.

"Matt loves people. Matt mourns people. Matt laughs when something is funny and is astonished when something is unexpected or brilliant."
Love happens, mourning happens, laughing happens, astonishment happens but when I look closely they happen of their own accord.Then they get identified as things happening to Matt.

I'm not going to go through the rest piecemeal. I can't show you Matt or evidence of Matt, I can only show you things that get labelled as Matt or belonging to Matt.

[kvotski]

Ergo, there is no Matt, just a name or a label. Then why do you keep getting confused?

[Matt13]

I don't know, but it makes me laugh at myself.

I've seen people who refuse to believe a relationship is over, or that the person they love doesn't love them. I also know people who believe in the letter of their god and religion even thought they cannot point to it. I guess this is the same, for some reason the feeling of an I isn't letting go even though I have no reason whatsoever to believe in it. Maybe it's something to do with strength of attachment.

[Matt13]

Scratch that last line. It's back to the fear again. Why am I afraid of there not being a Matt?

[kvotski]

Look and see if being afraid isn't also just a thought that comes and goes and not permanent, not real?

Ilona recently interview Paulo and said something that may be appropriate for you as well. What you have realised is not the end of search but a beginning of dismantling old beliefs like the ones you exemplified above. Take a look,

http://networkedblogs.com/L8YU4

[Matt13]

Look and see if being afraid isn't also just a thought that comes and goes and not permanent, not real?

Ilona recently interview Paulo and said something that may be appropriate for you as well. What you have realised is not the end of search but a beginning of dismantling old beliefs like the ones you exemplified above. Take a look,

http://networkedblogs.com/L8YU4

Hi Sunil,

I've read through that blog a few times and dwelled on it a lot today. When Paulo answers the final questions I agree with his answers, but I don't feel the way he does when he answers question 3:

3)It feels liberating. The difference is let life express itself as it is in all its manifestations and letting go the idea of "I" fade away as any other thought and enjoy the ride of the present moment as it presents .

Am I expecting something that isn't going to be there? I'm expecting to feel liberated and in flow with what is happening and I'm expecting it to be good. Am I missing what is in front of me because it doesn't match my fantasy of liberation?

Today has felt calm for me. When things arise I have looked for the self claiming ownership and I haven't seen it. When I watch things happening and deliberately try and claim them for Matt - like Matt is typing, Matt went to work today, I'm not believing the claim. It doesn't feel like Matt did these things any more. But what I am experiencing doesn't seem to match Paulo's experience.

Keeping looking...

[kvotski]

No two experience or expectations can be the same, given the billions of combination of experience and bodies, you can never get the same liberation after effect as Paulo even if you were his twin brother.

You can be CERTAIN that what you expect won't be there. Expectations like self itself are just thoughts and making your thoughts manifest only happens in the movies. Are expectations also part of the illusion or not? What part of the self is illusion and what is not? Try to answer that.

[kvotski]

The key I wanted you to note what Ilona said, ie. liberation is the beginning. Do you agree?

[Matt13]

Are expectations also part of the illusion or not? What part of the self is illusion and what is not? Try to answer that.

Yes, expectations are part of the illusion. They are real thoughts, but thoughts about made up things that "I" hope will happen to "me".
What part of the self is illusion? The idea that there is a self. The thoughts of self are really happening, but the idea that something owns them is the illusion.

The key I wanted you to note what Ilona said, ie. liberation is the beginning. Do you agree?

Yes, that seems right. Thoughts arise on their own, so they are going to continue rising on their own. Since beliefs are thoughts they must continue too. What happens after that I don't know, I haven't experienced. Logically beliefs and thoughts about "me", the self, would have less of a sense of identification.

[kvotski]

Hi Matt,

I think you may be holding back because of this expectation that things will change and dramatically. Can you see that is not about to happen? Can there be a change? If yes, what changes into what?

[Matt13]

Hi Matt,

I think you may be holding back because of this expectation that things will change and dramatically. Can you see that is not about to happen? Can there be a change? If yes, what changes into what?

I can see it's not about to happen. Nothing in reality will change. I can't see how a recognition that there is no self can directly affect reality.

Can there be a change? It seems to me that there can. There can be a clearer awareness I think. Instead of being caught up in the illusion of self with no way out, there would be a recognition of the illusion and therefore less time being caught up. Wouldn't that be true?

Matt

[kvotski]

Do you mean seeing through the illusion of self will be a changed perspective? Thoughts will not change not even about the self except, there will be a recognition that such thoughts ar nothing but an illusion? Are we on the same page here?

[Matt13]

Yes, a changed perspective, exactly.