Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowate)

[perrym]

Hi again,

These ‘I’, ‘me’ thoughts, I want to believe them – I think they are true because:
They are so ‘in my face’, so habitual, it is hard to see the wood from the trees.

I know what you mean. Gentle persistent looking is the key, gradually you'll find that you are seeing what was familiar with fresh eyes.

When you write "I want to believe them" - is there really an "I" doing the wanting, or is there just a sequence of thoughts following one after the other?

They are so habitual they make deep groves, deep tracks, I feel rather buried in there.

So a habitual "I" thought passes by .... while it is passing, perhaps it is 'believed', perhaps the story seems real at the time .... but once the thought has passed, is the present moment fresh and free from belief?

‘my car’, how could the car be mine?? It’s a metal thing and I’m human psycho-biological thing!

ha, yes! 'my and mine' are completely absurd, aren't they? just stories!

What about the 'I' that 'owns' 'my experience'? Is that equally absurd?

They are so recognisable, so familiar, the most familiar things in the world, that they must be ‘real’ or true.
Ooooh, hang on, they are real, but that doesn’t mean they are true: must look more.

Yes, re-examining what is most familiar, asking what is true and real, this is exactly what we need to be doing.

So what is real? What exists?

The familiar stories of 'self' that we experience are real, in the sense that thoughts are real, but that does not mean that 'self' character in the stories is real - I can think of Santa Claus, and the thought is really happening, but that does not mean that there really is a Santa Claus. The distinctive unique feeling of 'me' is real, it is a feeling-experience that really happens, but it does not mean that there is a unique 'me' entity behind the feeling - the feeling just arises and passes.

Just because we can think something and come up with a label, it does not mean (of course) that what the label points to really exists. This is why it is so important, for this investigation, to come back to direct experience, because direct experience is what really exists.

... which is why we will keep returning to the question, "where, in direct experience, is what you call your 'self'?"

x
Perry

[perrym]

.... and hello again!

Since yesterday I have been exhausted and realised that I have been ‘pushing’ again, to see, striving and getting frustrated.
So I have just been trying to rest and just drop the looking into the heart and nothing else. Probably still ‘looking’ too much, Alas a bit differently.

Contained within the pushing may be exactly what we're looking to find - the naked assumption of self .... for what is pushing, against what? What was before this split into 'pusher' and 'pushed'?

Don't worry if that makes no sense :-)

You're right, of course, to relax out of 'pushing' mode - gentle, persistent looking and questioning is all that is needed.

Each time I look, even if it’s just for a moment I get these little jerkiness, twitching and shaking movements in my neck and shoulders.
There’s much sadness in my heart, because of the separation from truth and the tiredness of carrying the weight of the cloak.
There is Joy too at knowing that seeing truth is possible, but doubts are quick to come in at that point in form of thoughts and images and distraction. The veil is there, right in front of my view.
Tonight I felt several times that I just wanted to turn around, look at ‘something’ and say ‘NO, Enough’

deeply uncomfortable, i know, but take some comfort from the knowledge that these are quite normal symptoms along the path of insight!

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Dear Perry,

I was looking for something a bit different - for you to examine what 'belief' is in "direct experience"

I’m still stuck as to why I call some thoughts belief and others thoughts. They seem to be Big statements about me somehow that are loaded with feelings and stories.

“I can’t do this liberating myself stuff”, leads immediately to a narrowing of awareness, a stickiness and a sinking feeling from the heart to the stomach, a heavy head, a tension and heat in the guts. Memories of criticism, being talked down come in thick and fast to explain/justify the previous thought. More sad, resigned heavy feelings in the heart. More thoughts confirming the first one: ‘what’s the point...’ followed by actions of crying and brain going completely blank and stupid when trying to look. Awareness continues to narrow down and close down.
So, it looks like this particular belief is a habitual thought, with memories (proof) attached to it, it is strongly identified with as me or mine, attached to (being grabbed, dragged along by it), there is a considerable narrowing of awareness and a cascade of behaviours, feelings, thoughts which all ‘confirm’ the authenticity of the original thought, leading to more thoughts of the same nature etc...

There are moments when I get distracted from this spiral, awareness widens and sense a choice arises. A possibility of letting go of the belief-train-of-thought, but there are traces of strong emotions left behind by the first thought cycle, which make re-identification rather easy...”oh, why do I feel crap?...ah yes I remember now..because I can’t do this seeing stuff...”. Other thoughts also arose, kinder and wiser, but without the same habitual weight behind them.

I don’t know if that’s what you were looking for?
I don’t know what beliefs are in direct experience, other than heavy sticky thoughts with history and momentum behind them. Sorry :(

Padma
x

[stephanie padma]

Morning Perry,

Going through some of your questions.
From your first response this week end:

well ... is it what you are taking as 'the owner'? Sometimes, in searching for 'I, the owner', people do settle for a while with thoughts along the lines of 'I am awareness, my experience is owned by awareness' .... is this convincing?

I think I have been assuming on some level that awareness owns experience. All experience arises in awareness. And ‘I’ am aware of that. I am aware of experiences because of awareness.
Yet, looking it awareness, in itself it seems pretty neutral and not attached to experience, not making it happen or wanting it to be any particular way. Not bothered about what’s arising, and not running after it.
It is more like light or a presence full of light and compassion.
It is not ‘claiming’ to be anything. And I get a sense that it has got the potential to be much more than ‘me here and now’. I can’t explain that. It’s just bigger.
Yet, now I am writing this and thoughts arise: “that’s me, light and compassion!.... err, I mean, that would be great if that was me, wouldn’t it?...”

Contained within the pushing may be exactly what we're looking to find - the naked assumption of self .... for what is pushing, against what? What was before this split into 'pusher' and 'pushed'?

A pushing/striving sensation/feeling arises that gets appropriated by thoughts, and identified with, like yeah, let’s do this pushing: more megalomaniac thought: “I can make this happen, clever me...” .Eventually that leads to nothing but exhaustion and a feeling of being forced in a corner, which in turns gets identified with, memories etc...
It feels a bit like a head vs heart situation. A blindingly going against the flow. A ‘self righteousness’ vs the truth. Or something...

I think I’ve lost the plot with this looking.
I don’t know what I’m doing any more. Sorry.

Padma
x

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

I’m still stuck as to why I call some thoughts belief and others thoughts.
[...]
I don’t know if that’s what you were looking for?
[...]
I don’t know what beliefs are in direct experience, other than heavy sticky thoughts with history and momentum behind them. Sorry :(

There seem to be a few assumptions here about the process ... let me scatter-gun some points back to you:

• Being 'stuck', in the sense of not coming up with a clear concrete answer, is fine - raising a question and giving it some attention has an effect, it opens awareness up to areas normally overlooked, even if no conclusion is reached. Drop by drop the bucket fills.
• There really are not "right answers", or even answers that "I am looking for", to these questions .... The 'question' format is intended to be a way of POINTING, ie directing awareness, not a way of 'getting answers', if you see what I mean. The only 'answers' I hope for are descriptions of what you discover (or don't) when looking into your experience. I'm not usually looking for something specific - I'll walk with you in whatever direction your exploration takes you
• I'm not expecting you to find anything earth-shattering ... in fact, the 'answers' (ie what you find in experience) may seem too obvious to mention - but if it is what you find in experience, that is what we're looking for
• We don't need to take big steps .... a short answer that states the obvious is not "wrong"
• Often the most immediate impression that you notice is worth reporting - looking long and wilfully doesn't always help

The funny thing is, even though you said you were stuck and could not come up with an answer, you did actually come up with a very good answer :-) ....

They seem to be Big statements about me somehow that are loaded with feelings and stories.

That is a great observation! So perhaps the only difference is that you call a thought a 'belief' when it is 'loaded' in this way?

If so, that seems to be a significant discovery ... if a belief is just a particularly heavily loaded thought, then fundamentally, it has no more 'binding power' than any other thought.

Just like any other thought, however heavy it may feel, there is nobody 'doing' it. Just like any other thought, it arises and passes, and having passed, it is gone.

Does this seem true in experience? Is a belief just a 'heavy' thought? Is there any fundamental difference?

You describe one particular 'belief' process in a lot of detail:

“I can’t do this liberating myself stuff”, leads immediately to a narrowing of awareness, a stickiness and a sinking feeling from the heart to the stomach, a heavy head, a tension and heat in the guts. Memories of criticism, being talked down come in thick and fast to explain/justify the previous thought. More sad, resigned heavy feelings in the heart. More thoughts confirming the first one: ‘what’s the point...’ followed by actions of crying and brain going completely blank and stupid when trying to look. Awareness continues to narrow down and close down.
So, it looks like this particular belief is a habitual thought, with memories (proof) attached to it, it is strongly identified with as me or mine, attached to (being grabbed, dragged along by it), there is a considerable narrowing of awareness and a cascade of behaviours, feelings, thoughts which all ‘confirm’ the authenticity of the original thought, leading to more thoughts of the same nature etc...

Impressively precise observations, particularly considering how uncomfortable this 'belief' must be.

So, as you say in summary: "this particular belief is a habitual thought, with memories (proof) attached to it, it is strongly identified with as me or mine"

Let's look at each aspect:

"a habitual thought" - so other than the sense of familiarity, a habitual thought is just a thought, yes?

"memories (proof) attached" - what are memories? In direct experience, is a memory other than another thought, happening in the present? It can be notoriously difficult to distinguish memory from imagination - is this because both are, in fact, just thoughts happening in the present moment? What about 'proof' - is that a judgement (ie another thought) about the memory?

"identified with a me or mine" - what is identification? (Reminder - there is not a right answer to this!)

x
Perry

[perrym]

Hello again,

Yet, looking it awareness, in itself it seems pretty neutral and not attached to experience, not making it happen or wanting it to be any particular way. Not bothered about what’s arising, and not running after it.
It is more like light or a presence full of light and compassion.
It is not ‘claiming’ to be anything. And I get a sense that it has got the potential to be much more than ‘me here and now’. I can’t explain that. It’s just bigger.

Very interesting observations.

So would you say that is awareness 'personal' or 'impersonal'? Is it 'my' awareness, or just 'awareness'?

A pushing/striving sensation/feeling arises that gets appropriated by thoughts

yes! So if/when this arises again, explore the sensation/feeling directly. Are 'you' doing it or is it just arising? If thoughts arise that claim to be responsible, notice the story - are the characters in story real?

I think I’ve lost the plot with this looking.
I don’t know what I’m doing any more. Sorry.

hey, that's fine, it's really simple .... I'll ask questions, you answer as truthfully as you can from direct experience. It really is that simple, you don't need to worry about where we're going :-)

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your clarification and encouragement. Of course I know you are right, and I also get lost in doubts. It reminds me of something martine batchelor told me: “Don’t confuse the practice with the result”.

Lots of questions and looking to do. Some from your previous thread.

When you write "I want to believe them" - is there really an "I" doing the wanting, or is there just a sequence of thoughts following one after the other?

Just a sequence of thoughts, running away with each other.

So a habitual "I" thought passes by .... while it is passing, perhaps it is 'believed', perhaps the story seems real at the time .... but once the thought has passed, is the present moment fresh and free from belief?

Yes, it does happen like that.

What about the 'I' that 'owns' 'my experience'? Is that equally absurd?

Looking at the rain drops on the window, a thought came up: “mine?”. Absurd indeed.

if a belief is just a particularly heavily loaded thought, then fundamentally, it has no more 'binding power' than any other thought.

fundamentally, this is true, it can be challenged. Pfffffff....except I have about 100 me-thoughts a minute!

Does this seem true in experience? Is a belief just a 'heavy' thought? Is there any fundamental difference?

No fundamental difference! No difference in nature, just more heavy and/or sticky.

"a habitual thought" - so other than the sense of familiarity, a habitual thought is just a thought, yes?

Yes. Not fundamentally different than any other thought.

"memories (proof) attached" - what are memories? In direct experience, is a memory other than another thought, happening in the present? It can be notoriously difficult to distinguish memory from imagination - is this because both are, in fact, just thoughts happening in the present moment? What about 'proof' - is that a judgement (ie another thought) about the memory?

Yes, absolutely, good point. In reality (re neuroscience), we know that memory is totally unreliable, a re-fabrication. In experience it’s impossible to know what actually happened, those ‘memories from childhood’ have become stories, re-told and re-invented so many times, each time in fact. Yes, just a thought in the present. The idea of ‘proof’ is just another thought now.

"identified with a me or mine" - what is identification?

There is Identification when thoughts appropriate experiences. Building up the story of the character, with each experience, idea, object becomes a building block for the big Padma shape project.

I’m aware I haven’t answered the question about awareness which was the most interesting and also the one about ‘sense of self’. I get a bit ‘wordless’ when I look at awareness. Appropriating thoughts are very quick to come in because awareness is ‘very nice’!! me likes awareness a lot!
I am also aware that dinner is going to burn in a minute ;)

With love,
Padma

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

So would you say that is awareness 'personal' or 'impersonal'? Is it 'my' awareness, or just 'awareness'?

This is very difficult to see. Or maybe I don’t want to see: the question itself raises very strong feelings, mostly red hot fear.

A distracting thought arises about a complicated situation, guilt and confusion arise, a thought arises: “I am aware of all that”. But it seems to me that is a convenient figure of speech. There is awareness of all that, yes, then something else happens. Sticky heavy thoughts come in and distraction.

That’s all I can write today.

Padma
xxx

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

It seems we have established that 'belief' is really just 'thought' - good!

There is Identification when thoughts appropriate experiences. Building up the story of the character, with each experience, idea, object becomes a building block for the big Padma shape project.

So 'identification' is actually .... just thought?

I have about 100 me-thoughts a minute!

:-)

That's fine - we are not trying to get rid of 'me-thoughts'. Neither their frequency nor their weight/stickiness matters for the purposes of this investigation.

What matters is this:

Is the "I" that seems to be "having" the thoughts really there? Is there a thinker separate from the thought? Is there an "I" in control, choosing what thoughts to have and then "having" them?

Is the "me" that is thought about something that can be found in direct experience, or is it just a character in a story?

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
Something has shifted since yesterday, not sure if it’s just my health improving or my looking!
It’s hard to describe, I have dropped into the heart more and the fear pretty much dissolves when I look. I am seeing much more clearly that there is nothing to protect, that behind the fear there is emptiness and space, then the fear dissolves, a small clenching remains in the solar plexus, but that’s probably habitual. There is a lot more space in my experience and love, which is not bad.

So 'identification' is actually .... just thought?

Yeah, pretty much, though there is a movement with it too, a grasping (narrowing and moving toward the thing).

Is the "I" that seems to be "having" the thoughts really there?

It doesn’t look like it! I can’t see anything substantial that stays in place that’s identifiyable.

Is there a thinker separate from the thought?

There is awareness of the thoughts coming and going, but awareness is not ‘making the thoughts’. Thoughts are like mind-noise, they make noise that is heard and seen.

Is there an "I" in control, choosing what thoughts to have and then "having" them?

Definitively not! Thoughts arise rather randomly most of the time, sometimes they follow one after the other in a rather logical way – but there is no-one in control of them (I wish!)

Is the "me" that is thought about something that can be found in direct experience, or is it just a character in a story?

‘Me’, seems to be a construct of thoughts that creates a character, a personality. Sometimes there are several characters, coming in to play depending on the situation.
When I went running yesterday, I got to the hill and it was really hard work (I hadn’t run for a couple of weeks), the ‘poor me’ character came in “we could just walk it this time”, then the Rambo character came in “C’mon! Let’s do it! faster”. Whilst they were arguing amongst themselves, I was observing that and in the meantime my body just carried on up the hill.
I’ve always been aware of the characters, but suddenly that observation has a lot more meaning to it: these are just little stories acting themselves out, playing their own dramas – and that’s it, that’s all there is to this ‘me’!

I don’t think I’ve seen it yet though :(

Love,
Padma

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

Something has shifted since yesterday, not sure if it’s just my health improving or my looking!
It’s hard to describe, I have dropped into the heart more and the fear pretty much dissolves when I look. I am seeing much more clearly that there is nothing to protect, that behind the fear there is emptiness and space, then the fear dissolves, a small clenching remains in the solar plexus, but that’s probably habitual. There is a lot more space in my experience and love, which is not bad.

:-)

:-)

:-)

I’ve always been aware of the characters, but suddenly that observation has a lot more meaning to it: these are just little stories acting themselves out, playing their own dramas – and that’s it, that’s all there is to this ‘me’!

more :-)

So there is sense experience happening, thoughts and feelings arise and pass, stories play out as thoughts, awareness is neutral and not attached to experience .... is anything left over? Where is "I" in all this?

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

is anything left over? Where is "I" in all this?

So, this is where the 100% honesty comes in ;)
The ‘I’ is in:
Not wanting to be out of control.
Not wanting to be mixed up with, undifferentiated from every aspect of life. There are some aspect of what is out there in this world I want to be separate from – going out to the park to do some looking did bring that up strongly unfortunately ;)

So, a resistance to relinquish control and boundaries. Intellectually I know that this is not about relinquishing anything, but seeing things as they are. But ‘something in me’ doesn’t see that yet and doesn’t trust that yet.

My intuition tells me that at this stage I need to really relax and let things be whilst looking gently.
I’m also concerned that I may not even see when I’ve seen it. Knowing me and doubt, I really hope that ‘seeing’ will be obvious!

So, right now, it’s the tension in my chest and solar plexus that are being the ‘me’ and typing this and having these concerns. If I look deeper there is also a sense of peaceful presence, typing, bottom comfty on the bed, shoulders achy, lovely sound of bird singing outside my window, gratitude for Perry and love for trees and birds.

Padma xxx

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

100% honesty is what will get us there :-)

I really hope that ‘seeing’ will be obvious

It varies - for many, it is creeps up quietly and whispers over the shoulder. You've written in the past about a sense of holding a guilty secret ... is this a response to hearing the truth whispering in your ear?

.... but coming back to what you wrote earlier:

Not wanting to be out of control.
Not wanting to be mixed up with, undifferentiated from every aspect of life. There are some aspect of what is out there in this world I want to be separate from

as you say, you know intellectually that this is not about giving up control - it is good that this is clear.

Can you investigate 'control'? What is this 'control' in direct experience? What is the entity that exercises it?

By the way, I agree that it would be good to

really relax and let things be whilst looking gently

....spot on! Keep up the looking and questioning, relaxed and gentle, nothing to change, only to look.....

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
I didn't really do any proper looking today, partly a busy day with my QiGong class, and partly just feeling the need to step back.
It was a bit of a bad day as far as anxiety goes.
Pushing/striving to 'get this done' at one end and freaking out about the abscence of self and control at the other end.
A duality, which has not been 'seen through' yet as just being one of those stories that play themselves out.
So, erm, prioritising a bit of chilling out and not taking things so seriously - I do need to get out more!
I hope to find space tomorrow to gently look at this control issue.
Love, Padma x

[perrym]

You chill as much as you need to :-)

x
Perry

P.S. discovering that 'you' have never been 'in control' can be disconcerting, but rest assured, what needs to happen will continue to happen, decisions arise even though there has never been a decider making them happen