Guidance please

[Taran]

Hi Andrew

Andrew wrote:
Look closely at this again. Who was lost? Still a form there, the one with wobbly legs, and awareness, the five (or six) senses functioning. And the body got home okay, which I'm glad to hear. So which bit was lost?

The self! :D

Andrew wrote:
All direct experience means is the awareness of what arises just as it is without thoughts jumping to conclusions or deciding what it is exactly that arises.

OK will try to practice this.

Andrew wrote: You may think that you sense a 'me', feel like there's a self, but when you look openly like this can you really still feel it?

No I can't. The 'me' feeling doesn't kick in until the thoughts of 'who controlled that movement?' ' who did that?' or for that matter, any other thoughts!

Andrew wrote: And the answer is only apparent in the moment in the process of looking, not in thinking about it afterwards or in hypothesising about it. Despite all and any thoughts - only look at what arises in direct experience of the moment - whatever that moment involves doing. So if you're just sitting breathing then see the breath, feel the heart beat, the body on the seat. Is there a 'self' in there?

I agree in the moment there is nothing but a body reacting, as you said somewhere else "cause and effect"....so Nope - no 'self' in there.

Andrew wrote: When the sense of 'self' is lost in the moment what is the feeling that arises with this? Is there fear, confusion? If feelings arise then look and ask, is this feeing real? Or just another feeling? Just another thought?

When the 'self' is lost in the moment there is no feeling.... there is no self to notice one anyhow. It is only when awareness returns to thoughts that the feelings are noticed. At this point I would say the only thought is contentment and loss ...craving for more of the same experience.....all just thoughts.

Funeral ......sat, breathed, heart fluttered.... in the moment. Then 'I' returned, so proud of my Mum.... heart opened.... eyes shed tears.
Wake: .....hands plated food, cut food, carried things to table, body talked to people, functioned, ate,
washed up, experienced water, foam, cloth against crockery. Small moments of mindfulness.

much metta
Lynne

[Andrew White]

Hi Lynne,

Another challenging experience today! By the way, there's nothing wrong with the narrative - being with the 'story' of others and part of it, laughing and crying with it - it's all fine. Awakening is just knowing that's what it is.

When the 'self' is lost in the moment there is no feeling.... there is no self to notice one anyhow. It is only when awareness returns to thoughts that the feelings are noticed. At this point I would say the only thought is contentment and loss ...craving for more of the same experience.....all just thoughts.

If you've had this experience by the sea of no 'self' and no feeling, then you've had a period of really seeing. If the sense of self came back afterwards that's okay, that's just how it happens for some. And as you've realised it's only in the moment not in thought.

As you reflect on it go back to your words when I asked what was lost and you said 'the self!' But now I hope you see that even though the sense of self isn't present we don't lose anything do we? What we thought was there wasn't real. There's just being. Just as it was before but with seeing. Does that make sense in your experience?

So now look at this idea of 'future' and also of 'past'. In awareness, in the moment, look at these. What are they? How real are they?
Keep what you find with you throughout the day when a future thought arises strongly.
Remember - where are you now?

You're doing well at the mindfulness so stick with it, over and over, moment by moment.
How does the moment fit with the thought of 'control'?

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Taran]

Hi Andrew

Andrew wrote: By the way, there's nothing wrong with the narrative - being with the 'story' of others and part of it, laughing and crying with it - it's all fine. Awakening is just knowing that's what it is.

That's good to hear. Funny 'cos a passing thought had wondered about that.

Andrew wrote: As you reflect on it go back to your words when I asked what was lost and you said 'the self!' But now I hope you see that even though the sense of self isn't present we don't lose anything do we? What we thought was there wasn't real. There's just being. Just as it was before but with seeing. Does that make sense in your experience?

:D ....lol!....No, when you put it like that, there is nothing to lose! Just being...yes, makes perfect sense!

Andrew wrote: So now look at this idea of 'future' and also of 'past'. In awareness, in the moment, look at these. What are they? How real are they?

Future and past do not exist, they are just thoughts. There is only the moment. Future/past are not real.
Though, in my experience, it is easier to see the future as more unreal than the past! :D
However, the past exists only in memory, which is just a brain storage bank of thoughts.... of stories.....and not a reliable accurate storage bank at that! The only thing that exists in truth, is the present moment.

Keep what you find with you throughout the day when a future thought arises strongly. Remember - where are you now?

Reflected that again this is useful, and more easy remember to avoid anxiety regarding possible future events, but not so easy when reviewing pleasant memories...... when thoughts of these make 'me' 'feel' quite content!

How does the moment fit with the thought of 'control'?

The moment doesn't fit at all with the 'thought' of 'control'. Being in the moment means there is no controller present. No thinker present to see that some control is needed or even possible. Being in the moment is just to directly experience whatever it is! Just being.

So noting periods of ignoring the 'stories' 'I' try and create about how 'others' don't react the way 'I' would. Not buying into them so much. Remembering they are nothing but thoughts, that these thoughts are not in the moment and that craving won't help, because control is not possible. Some deeply ingrained buttons can still be pressed......but generally more happily going with the flow.

Noticing a mild aversion to the use of the word 'stories' in this whole context, which 'I' had been ignoring, as I understood the use.... but now it's been seen 'consciously' ....'I' think I can let that go! :D

So today, when mindfulness was managed, 'I' observed hands massaging,.... no longer saw them as my hands, nor under my control, of course by then thinking has kicked in and I thought this was 'interesting'.

Thanks & best wishes
Lynne

[Andrew White]

Hi Lynne,

All sounds good.

Reflected that again this is useful, and more easy remember to avoid anxiety regarding possible future events, but not so easy when reviewing pleasant memories...... when thoughts of these make 'me' 'feel' quite content!

Yes, nice to dwell on pleasant memories and don't think I don't, but without judgement we just see them for what they are. As for the future, simple planning aside, what is gained from dwelling on it? Apart from anxiety!?

The moment doesn't fit at all with the 'thought' of 'control'. Being in the moment means there is no controller present. No thinker present to see that some control is needed or even possible. Being in the moment is just to directly experience whatever it is! Just being.

Good.

So noting periods of ignoring the 'stories' 'I' try and create about how 'others' don't react the way 'I' would. Not buying into them so much. Remembering they are nothing but thoughts, that these thoughts are not in the moment and that craving won't help, because control is not possible. Some deeply ingrained buttons can still be pressed......but generally more happily going with the flow.

Noticing a mild aversion to the use of the word 'stories' in this whole context, which 'I' had been ignoring, as I understood the use.... but now it's been seen 'consciously' ....'I' think I can let that go! :D

Good, it's just seen as soon as we return to the moment and wake up. It becomes easier and more natural.

So today, when mindfulness was managed, 'I' observed hands massaging,.... no longer saw them as my hands, nor under my control, of course by then thinking has kicked in and I thought this was 'interesting'.

Again good that you noticed this arising within the moment.

I think the focus should be now all about present moment awareness. Nothing fancy, just be aware in the moment as often as possible and really see what it shows - you will see more and more as you do. Don't do this in a judgemental way however, you've not succeeded when remembered or failed when you get swept up in some long narrative thought chain.
It's about enjoying the freedom of the moment. Let me know how it goes.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Taran]

Hi Andrew
Sorry it's brief and late....

Yes , quite, absolutely nothing (apart from planning) to be gained dwelling in the future apart from anxiety, I couldn't agree more!

Trying to work on my mindfulness more and more..... Moments again whilst at work.
Driving this evening was aware of 'my' weight in the car seat, hands holding the steering wheel, the feeling of mild anxiety in 'my' diaphragm, bumps in the road, wind buffeting the car.

Spent the evening watching a table of people I was with, talk but not listening to each other... Some how it seemed even more obvious than normal!
Felt the wood of the table, the weight of the cutlery, breathed in and out. etc
Watched old stories play out, avoided joining in....i.e ignored the button pressing...stayed present and just observed. Not sure how much mindfulness there was, but at least there was creative rather than reactive response.

Night night
Lynne

[Taran]

Ps well that is to say, re theclastbparagraph, I stayed fairly present ... Fully present, I guess would have meant fully absent! But you know what I mean!

Woke, steet

[Taran]

Mmm 'I' didn't press submit!!!! Tries again....

Ps well that is to say, re the last paragraph, in last night's post....I stayed 'fairly present'.... Fully present, I guess would have meant fully absent! But you know what I mean!

So today, woke, stretched, shifted an achy leg, yawned, breathed and took hold of 'my' watch, before 'I' emerged.
Managed to shower reasonably mindfully.

Off to a Triratna Community day .... Will be nice to see lots of friends...
More later
Lynne

[Andrew White]

Hi Lynne,

Ps well that is to say, re the last paragraph, in last night's post....I stayed 'fairly present'.... Fully present, I guess would have meant fully absent! But you know what I mean!

So today, woke, stretched, shifted an achy leg, yawned, breathed and took hold of 'my' watch, before 'I' emerged.
Managed to shower reasonably mindfully.

Fully present = fully absent, I like that :)
Mindfulness works in two ways, it helps to break up the narrative and make it more aparent, but also in being in the moment there's a letting go, a just being.
What should we expect from the moment? How does it look when we accept its simplicity, its emptiness?
And what do we need to bring to that?

With mindfulness, whenever you realise you've got on board the thought train once again, pause and trace your thoughts back down the line and see at which point they started. This is a very useful exercise that goes hand in hand with trying to be mindful.

Spent the evening watching a table of people I was with, talk but not listening to each other... Some how it seemed even more obvious than normal!
Felt the wood of the table, the weight of the cutlery, breathed in and out. etc
Watched old stories play out, avoided joining in....i.e ignored the button pressing...stayed present and just observed. Not sure how much mindfulness there was, but at least there was creative rather than reactive response.

As well as being mindful of the 'narrative' side of life as you have been, it's worth looking at the physical side too. Can you see the cycle of life as it unfolds? So much to notice here when we look without judgement.

Hope you have a wonderful day at Triratna.

Take care,

Andrew

[Taran]

Hi Andrew

What a beautiful day! Well it was here...hope it was with you!

Andrew wrote: Fully present = fully absent, I like that :)

Yes me too.....sadly is was a corruption of something someone said to me, so I can't claim credit! :)

Andrew wrote: What should we expect from the moment? How does it look when we accept its simplicity, its emptiness?

To what should we expect from the moment...I was going to say simplicity, but you said it for me in the next sentence, maybe you meant to be rhetorical, but thought I'd answer that if one is in the moment, not planning for a zillion possible future scenarios, life has got to be far more simple.
mmm and perhaps it's best not to expect anything in particular, just experience what is.
If we're expecting something we're not in the moment.

Andrew wrote:
And what do we need to bring to that?

Letting go, just being, being open to the experience, just as it is.
Not trying to attach to anything or to push it away.

With mindfulness, whenever you realise you've got on board the thought train once again, pause and trace your thoughts back down the line and see at which point they started. This is a very useful exercise that goes hand in hand with trying to be mindful.

Oh heck! :D 'I' have enough trouble noting "the thought train" is off again! lol.
OK ....will do!

As well as being mindful of the 'narrative' side of life as you have been, it's worth looking at the physical side too. Can you see the cycle of life as it unfolds?

Please can you say a bit more? I've read this half a dozen different ways! Since I've already mentioned touch I'm guessing you don't mean that .....So do you mean immediate needs, such as the need for food or the WC? Or do you mean the heart beating, lungs expanding, or perhaps even ageing and impermanence stuff....e.g. back ache, grey hair etc? I could guess for ever :D

Yes, thank you lovely day with my friends at the Buddhist Centre.
Enjoyed the drive there, the warmth of friendship, and the experience of really being able to listen to people, to take them in.

best wishes
Lynne

[Andrew White]

Hi Lynne,

And what do we need to bring to that?

Letting go, just being, being open to the experience, just as it is.
Not trying to attach to anything or to push it away.

That's perfect, beautiful.

With mindfulness, whenever you realise you've got on board the thought train once again, pause and trace your thoughts back down the line and see at which point they started. This is a very useful exercise that goes hand in hand with trying to be mindful.

Oh heck! :D 'I' have enough trouble noting "the thought train" is off again! lol.
OK ....will do!

Just takes practice, and it's amazing how good you'll get at this. It does reinforce mindfulness which is why it's useful.

Please can you say a bit more? I've read this half a dozen different ways! Since I've already mentioned touch I'm guessing you don't mean that .....So do you mean immediate needs, such as the need for food or the WC? Or do you mean the heart beating, lungs expanding, or perhaps even ageing and impermanence stuff....e.g. back ache, grey hair etc? I could guess for ever :D

I'm reluctant to answer your question for two reasons: one, I think you can get there yourself. Two, I want what you get from looking at this to be yours and not coloured by anything I might write. This enquiry is all about what you see, but slightly against my better judgement this is an answer.

There are different aspects to these forms. In one sense they are just like the wave - remember what we said, cause producing effect, a momentum carrying forward. Within the form hunger arises, thirst, reproductive desires. But these aren't personal, they are part of the form, hard-wired into it as they are into each animate form. So they're seen for what they are. We don't need to induldge or deny but simply provide what the form requires.

If there is some further attachment to any of these then we look at that and see what's behind it. And we just see, we don't judge or react, just be in the awareness of seeing. Why? Because there's no story in the simple moment of seeing. And so the action that comes from this seeing is free and natural, not a product of the story.

And as the moment unfolds, cause creates effect, produces cause, and on and on the life cycle continues and we see our form, other forms each at their stages within this. So within every baby is every old person and vice versa. And when you look with these eyes you see that what appears as beautiful to be so brief, so fleeting you know it can never be captured or held. But then you see something else too - it's all beautiful. And the more you look into the unfolding being, the beingness of it down to the tiniest mote of dust - well - you look and tell me what you see.

That's why it's worth looking. And keeping looking. Let me know how it goes.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Taran]

Hi Andrew

Ok, so will practice tracing the 'though train' back down the tracks...sounds like a plan!

I'm reluctant to answer your question for two reasons: one, I think you can get there yourself.

Ha :D I just knew you were going to say that, but I also predicted you were going to respond, and help me out :D

OK, thank you, it helped me better understand. So I will also try and look more at form, spot the natural responses and control patterns, and those that are linked to stories..... e.g. needing food is OK, possibly even eating chocolate...but what emotions are linked there? Avoid joining in the stories etc. More reflection required.

This afternoon, 'I' was out in the beautiful countryside, walking the dogs, with a friend. Found 'I' really just wanted to be, and listen, rather than talking about 'my' life. How to do that without it just being a story? Wondered if 'I' was being a little dull as a companion, but wasn't overly concerned by this.

Drove home, conscious that 'I' wasn't really driving, that 'I' didn't really own a car. Seemed like a neutral feeling.
Thought trains about various other aspects going on at the moment, and 'I' was able to let them drop as just 'processes' which would go one way or another, without a 'me' trying to control them!

Craving only some longer periods of 'space' out of the norm, to just be. But before you say it..... a lovely friend already has :D......."Right here, right now!"

No excuses .... on the case
Lynne

[Andrew White]

Hi Lynne,

OK, thank you, it helped me better understand. So I will also try and look more at form, spot the natural responses and control patterns, and those that are linked to stories..... e.g. needing food is OK, possibly even eating chocolate...but what emotions are linked there? Avoid joining in the stories etc. More reflection required.

Exactly, good. You're on the right track here. What are the stories? Take a look at exactly where they start and this isn't easy. That first 'movement' that is the line between discontent with what is, wanting something, anticipation of what getting it will bring. Look right at the start of this to the sensation of need/discontent - what exactly is there in direct experience. Take a few minutes and see what is there, let it simply be in awareness. Now is there an 'I' wanting something? Tell me what you discover with this.

This afternoon, 'I' was out in the beautiful countryside, walking the dogs, with a friend. Found 'I' really just wanted to be, and listen, rather than talking about 'my' life. How to do that without it just being a story? Wondered if 'I' was being a little dull as a companion, but wasn't overly concerned by this.

So not putting the story of Lynne at the centre of things, just being content to see it arising as another story alongside the others?

Drove home, conscious that 'I' wasn't really driving, that 'I' didn't really own a car. Seemed like a neutral feeling.
Thought trains about various other aspects going on at the moment, and 'I' was able to let them drop as just 'processes' which would go one way or another, without a 'me' trying to control them!

Good and remember, just looking with the enquiry, 'Is there a 'me' in the room?', 'Can the 'me' please stand up.'
When you see thoughts like this - they arise, they carry on, they change, they drop away, it's all about the seeing and seeing that this is something that can just happen. A 'me' that has to be present for it to happen is no more than a Santa or a tooth fairy - a convenient assumption that seems to fit till we look at it closely.

Why can't thoughts just happen like rain falls? Where is it written that this must have a separate 'me' to make it happen? Why can't an animal just evolve to think as a process that makes it more successful...?

Craving only some longer periods of 'space' out of the norm, to just be. But before you say it..... a lovely friend already has :D......."Right here, right now!"

No excuses .... on the case

Exactly. For me awakening happened on a lunchtime walk at work - so it really doesn't need special conditions. Reality is just here. So just with the letting go - the general lack of needing or wanting this story to carry on, do more, find more, be more, coupled with the intense looking, just seeing, seeing ,seeing is all we do.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Taran]

Hi Andrew
OK so, I will start watching more the form processes and thought patterns/emotions that aise. I can think of detailed examples but I will report direct experience not stories :).

Andrew wrote: So not putting the story of Lynne at the centre of things, just being content to see it arising as another story alongside the others?

Yes 'I' suppose this is what it boils down to. 'I' was 'just being' as much as possible, listening, and choosing (who was choosing or did that just happen?...maybe it did!) not to buy into too many of the stories that arose....... Contentment.

Today I set a very very quiet (sometimes too quiet even for me to hear)mindfulness bell every 5 mins in my clinic... It is proving very useful!

Keeping 'me' in the present is really really helping with happiness, and avoiding anxiety. Also feel so much stuff is being let go of by seeing that 'I' can't control anything and that thought processes just happen. Hopefully the feeling of 'me' will drop away too, as 'I' keep practicing.

Was with a group of lovely friends this evening to meditate......felt such contentment in 'just being' with 'them' and listening. Stories needing a compassionate response were met with the feeling of such, but without picking up on the energy of sadness, as 'I' used to.

'I' noticed a brief feeling of guilt for feeling so happy and content. There were also thoughts of "can I really have changed so much when I still feel a 'me'?.... Perhaps I have become even more deluded!?" ..... Mmmm just more thoughts! Will ignore as another story and stick with the positive outlook. Just sharing the days pointers! :-)

With much gratitude
Lynne

[Taran]

Ps And yes 'I' see that positive/negative outlook ..... Just changed the story....... But from 'my' perspective, it seems like a good thing until the magic eye picture emerges . :-)

[Taran]

Hi Andrew

Hope this finds you well. 'I'm glad you haven't replied yet as I only partially replied to you yesterday, and didn't answer this bit, as I needed much more reflection......still does! ...

Andrew wrote: That first 'movement' that is the line between discontent with what is, wanting something, anticipation of what getting it will bring. Look right at the start of this to the sensation of need/discontent - what exactly is there in direct experience. Take a few minutes and see what is there, let it simply be in awareness. Now is there an 'I' wanting something? Tell me what you discover with this.

But seen a couple of examples today .... Wanting chocolate, and perusing well known online auction/market..... What was there behind these things.... No 'I' that's for sure. Just misguided sensations of craving, looking to fulfil the discontent that comes with the restless that grows, if mindfulness isn't happening! Neither shopping needed or really wanted.... nothing really in control....just old habits....Pointless! And why wasn't there mindfulness? Because 'I' choose to have an evening vegging in front of TV .... Uses enough brain to stop mindfulness but not to keep 'me' fully absorbed enough....mmmm no wonder TV is sometimes called an "intoxicant". 'I' am not that addicted and don't watch much, so 'I' hadn't seen this before! Had just thought it was about the time wasting. Thank goodness for the growing light evenings....more walks and 'just being' outside will be possible in the evening hopefully.

Good and remember, just looking with the enquiry, 'Is there a 'me' in the room?', 'Can the 'me' please stand up.'
When you see thoughts like this - they arise, they carry on, they change, they drop away, it's all about the seeing and seeing that this is something that can just happen. A 'me' that has to be present for it to happen is no more than a Santa or a tooth fairy - a convenient assumption that seems to fit till we look at it closely.

No there isn't really a 'me' in the room, but I haven't yet shed that feeling! .....'I' will keep looking and seeing.

.Why can't thoughts just happen like rain falls?

They can, obvious like my mention of 'choosing' yesterday!
Thanks
Lynne