Making the leap

[richardcooper2k]

My mind constantly wants to go into the mode of 'I know this, I don't have to look into it anymore' - the only thing about that is that I have to notice the mind doing that. If I don't, then off to thought loop world it is!

Yep, that's a sure sign i'm not looking into experience any more :-)

This next bit is unrelated - i just saw it on another thread and thought it was great when i tried it. I'd be interested to hear your experience of what happens when you look around and the question is asked - "What is at the center of experience?"

Now then, back to chooser, decider, doer

There is no doer in the sense of the word, at all. The concept of I is having an experience that it uses the word 'do' to somehow separate that 'thing-concept' from the rest of the 'thing-concepts'. Doing something and being a doer of something are again just thoughts within the thought of the self that it has created in order to try to better understand what it thinks it is experiencing.

I think you are remembering some things here that you have seen previously. To answer clearly you will need to look again. Here are some pointers to what is wrong with the statement above:
Can a thought have a thought ?
Can the concept of I have an experience ?
Can the concept of I separate concepts ?

Try an experiment. Get up and walk around (really do it). What is doing the walking ? Can you find anything controlling the body ? Can you observe a decision to stop walking ?

So, what is happening ? Can you find chooser, decision maker, doer ?

Hope you enjoy investigating :-)

[richardcooper2k]

Hey Indrek !
How's it going ?
Remember whatever thoughts and feelings are coming up are just the thoughts and feelings that are coming up.
There is nothing wrong with anything
It is just what is happening

[Indrek]

Hey Richard,

Been pondering and experiencing. I've been having a hard time putting anything into words... As soon I start writing something down I realize I am not expressing what I am experiencing but the thoughts about what I am experiencing. And not just the factual thoughts of "there is typing on the laptop", but "I am typing on the laptop". There is still that 'I' in there somewhere. And even if i say 'there is typing', it still encompasses the Self...
The good thing is that I am seeing Self a lot more in every moment, though! :)

Lots of confounding happening... I am making things quite difficult without realizing how it could be simple.
I realized that I have seen no-self several times but I've also noticed that Self surfaces again soon, only describing itself differently. In stead of thinking itself the body it thinks of itself as something "far deeper". But still the Self. And still holding on.

I'll answer the questions soon... :)

[richardcooper2k]

Been pondering and experiencing. I've been having a hard time putting anything into words... As soon I start writing something down I realize I am not expressing what I am experiencing but the thoughts about what I am experiencing. And not just the factual thoughts of "there is typing on the laptop", but "I am typing on the laptop". There is still that 'I' in there somewhere. And even if i say 'there is typing', it still encompasses the Self...
The good thing is that I am seeing Self a lot more in every moment, though! :)

Yes, it is quite likely belief in the self will keep popping up. That's all thoughts do
And i recognize the feeling of writing something, then reading it and it has lost it's freshness somehow, doesn't feel right anymore. We can somehow transmit something of the essence of our experience through words - the reader/hearer can recognize it in their own.

Lots of confounding happening... I am making things quite difficult without realizing how it could be simple.
I realized that I have seen no-self several times but I've also noticed that Self surfaces again soon, only describing itself differently. In stead of thinking itself the body it thinks of itself as something "far deeper". But still the Self. And still holding on.

The self only exists in thought, not in experience. It can't be "out-thought". It can be as deep as can be imagined by thought.

I'll answer the questions soon... :)

Don't hesitate to share where you are at in the meantime. As you are noticing the mind will habitually spin thoughts to recreate the illusion of selfhood. It helps to talk to others who have seen as it is easy to get disorientated. Subtle beliefs creep in very easily.

[Indrek]

The self only exists in thought, not in experience. It can't be "out-thought". It can be as deep as can be imagined by thought.

Now that really started something moving! I saw how I was just using other dimensions to describe the Self but still describing it.
And also that the essence of what I (the non-self) is, is about inclusion, not exclusion. There are thoughts, there are feelings, there are actions, there are objects, there are intentions - "I" am all of them and yet not bound by them.

Feelings of freedom and well-being have definitely started to increase as the thought-entity-I is decreasing. I realize more and more that the thought-entity-I truly doesn't know who/what it is, and as this realization has increased, the more I allow myself to sense myself as something other than just thought-entity.

What is at the center of experience

I enjoy how the thoughts of 'look for the center' and 'there is no center, everything is one' collide so that the mind crashes and I fall into direct experiencing.
It is hard to find any words, at all.

I'll post this and see if I'll make another post today or leave it for tomorrow!

[richardcooper2k]

Feelings of freedom and well-being have definitely started to increase as the thought-entity-I is decreasing. I realize more and more that the thought-entity-I truly doesn't know who/what it is, and as this realization has increased, the more I allow myself to sense myself as something other than just thought-entity.

Continue to deeply bathe in the not knowing that is what you are. It is embodied and real, yet unknowable. It is everything in every moment. Falling in love with this = this falling in love with itself. The old habit of thought is seen as just an old habit. It still comes to visit but is taken less and less seriously. The thought-entity-I is just another thought that may or may not be believed by a self that exists only as a thought.

In any experience, can you find a choice or a decision ? Wait and watch for one to happen

[Indrek]

In any experience, can you find a choice or a decision ? Wait and watch for one to happen

Either it is so bloody hard to find it that there isn't any point in talking about it, OR it doesn't exist :)
When I move my hand or walk, I can't sense anything initiating the movement. There are thoughts about moving. There is the hand moving. There is recognition of movement, recognition of change - yet even that seems seeming. There is this constant background sensing of stillness.


I am enjoying my life more and more.
I am even getting to the point where I am enjoying the resistance by whatever resistance there seems to be, at times. Physical and even psychic pain are not something that I completely react to out of habit, I am finding the experience of pain very curious. Uncomfortable, sure, yet there's been the realization that it was never really the pain but the reaction to it that's caused all kinds of interesting messes.

I don't know whether you think this is taking a round-about path, but I've realized that for the ego to become strong enough to dissolve further and further, it needs to be in "one piece", as well. That way there will be a total, unified surrender and not a partial one with some cut-off parts still asserting their case for existence.
Do you think that's getting lost in the thought again? A permission slip to allow more surrender?

Can a thought have a thought ?
Can the concept of I have an experience ?
Can the concept of I separate concepts ?

Well pointed... I shall post the experience of that tomorrow!

[richardcooper2k]

I am enjoying my life more and more.
I am even getting to the point where I am enjoying the resistance by whatever resistance there seems to be, at times. Physical and even psychic pain are not something that I completely react to out of habit, I am finding the experience of pain very curious. Uncomfortable, sure, yet there's been the realization that it was never really the pain but the reaction to it that's caused all kinds of interesting messes.

Sounds great. Reaction = thought story about what has happened to a self ?
So there is no one watching, life is just happening ?

I don't know whether you think this is taking a round-about path, but I've realized that for the ego to become strong enough to dissolve further and further, it needs to be in "one piece", as well. That way there will be a total, unified surrender and not a partial one with some cut-off parts still asserting their case for existence.
Do you think that's getting lost in the thought again? A permission slip to allow more surrender?

What is there to be in one piece ? A bunch of thoughts ?
For some folk perhaps it is possible for it all to disappear in a puff of smoke
For most though, old habits and thoughts continue to bubble up
Sometimes they are seen as just that
Sometimes the illusion reappears temporarily
But once seeing has happened it is easier for the old habits to be seen through and fall away. Once the stories are not believed in they starts to fade. It's a process. Just let it happen.......

[Indrek]

Can a thought have a thought ?
Can the concept of I have an experience ?
Can the concept of I separate concepts ?

A thought can think it has a thought, because it is thought and it creates itself again within itself. Because it is thought it confirms its existence by "thinking" - "doing" thought.

I find the second question absolutely fascinating because immediately I sense the answer that no, it cannot! The thought-entity has thoughts about experience. Experience(r) simply is and creates itself fully every "moment". While the thought-entity is like an emulation within that natural creation of that natural creation but which will never be like it nor never be it.

Which makes me ponder - can there be experience without thought? Is thought something that is transcended in full realization of our beingness and can that transcendence be experienced here (which I imagine as having no thoughts, having no need to reflect or consider - acting fully and wholly from the source of All - sort of like Cesar Teruel and Bentinho and my own experiences in certain states of "high connectivity")?
Yet now that I have phrased the question, the answer seems to be a fervent yes! (although it'd require some time to explore through things and the explore the concept of transcendence, as well)

An interesting thing is that in the past I've always found that when I am talking to someone or giving a public speech or debate speech, there are times in which all thought leaves me. I am unable to speak anything. Then after a while thought comes back and I can resume talking.
I've noticed now that the less I cling to the idea of there being thoughts that are expressed and simply expressing, my speech is more fluent and coherent. It would seem like it was the attachment to thought that was causing the overflowing of it and the "jamming" of it.

I'll answer your today's pointings tomorrow again ;)

Hug!

[Indrek]

Sounds great. Reaction = thought story about what has happened to a self ?
So there is no one watching, life is just happening ?

There are thoughts thinking they are watching. And yes, without and within the borders of thought, life simply happens in all its varied experiences. There still doesn't seem to be anything or anyone "watching".

In that sense, a reaction seems to only arise if some thought-form within the self-form (just making the distinction that there is also thoughts of fragmentation within the unity of self) takes an experience/stimulus personally - it considers itself the victim. The one that that something happened to. That is a very good point, again, Richard...
So the very act of reacting shows that something considers itself to exist (and that it's somewhat pissed :))
It is the frustration of the thought-entity that knows it cannot create, yet desiring to, that seems to be the source of the sense of insignificance.


To be continued!