guiding by location

[Jim]

Hello Art,

I would like a little more time--one more day--with this exercise. I am having a hard time finding blocks of time to do this and I would like to spend more time with it.

Is that cool?

Jim

[Artsys]

Hey Jim,

Take your time, and recall while doing these exercises that it's all being looked at directly using Direct Experience only. Suspend all stories of the mind, all beliefs and assumptions.

The key is to check it against DE.

DE consists of:

Thoughts
Feelings
Sensory input (seeing, hearing, feeling (tactile), tasting, smelling)

Using DE as the field of immediate observation look at what was suggested.

Warm regards,

~Art

[Jim]

Art,
I am out of town for a couple days and have very limited Internet access. Having a wonderful time looking at thoughts as they appear--no control, no controller more Sunday night.

Jim

[Artsys]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the update. Please recall the initial contract where we both agreed to post everyday. Lets get back on track when you return.

_Love

[Jim]

Art:

I am here. I will post everyday this week.

Take a look at thoughts.

How do they come to be? And are they your thoughts? Can a thought be aware of a thought?

If yes are you in control of thoughts? Do you know the next thought, can you stop a thought? Can you decide NOT to think of an Apple right now?

If no, what is the direct experience of thoughts and control?

My Direct Experience of thoughts is that they simply happen completely on their own.  I have no control over thoughts.  I do not know what thoughts are going to occur.  It seems that thoughts are triggered by other thoughts and sensations.  But I do not feel like I control my thoughts any more than I control digesting my food or beating my heart.  It seems like thinking is part of my biology.  

Can a thought be aware of a thought?

I was not sure about this one. I am still having a difficult time with the word "aware". It seems natural to say "I am aware of thoughts, or I am aware of sensations--of sights and sounds." But in Direct Experience, that "awareness" is just the next thought. If I am aware of thinking about something, it is just a thought saying "I am thinking about so-and-so". Is that a "thought being aware of a thought?" I'm not sure. I am still confused about what we mean when we say "awareness."

Love,

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

So you're seeing that thoughts come and go, and there is no control over them. Just floating across and disappearing.

What do they float across?

Can you now look at sensations.

What does experience mean? How is it experienced?

_Love

[Jim]

Art,

How's it going?

What do they float across?

"What do my thoughts float across...?"  Wow, I think my brain quits working there.  I don't sense anything physical, any location or anything like that.  It still "seems" like the thinking is taking place inside my head, but when I really look at thought, I cannot pinpoint a location.

Can you now look at sensations. 

I would say the same about sensations.  Sensations are noticed by thinking.  My body is a kind of receiver, and my brain is like a computer that processes the information.  It just happens.

What does experience mean? How is it experienced?

All experience seems to happen at the level of thinking.  I notice thoughts and sensations occurring, one after the other.  I feel my fingers against the keyboard.  I think "fingers" and "keyboard".  I think about typing. I remember. I perceive. I think. It keeps going.  That is what I think "experiencing" is.

Going back to the Direct Experience essay, I experience thoughts and sensations and a sense of being. All of that is what I experience. Experience used to take place inside my head. After these past few weeks, I am not sure about a location of experience. But experience seems like it is always connected to that thing that I think of as my mental process--thinking, sensing, observing, labeling, describing, etc.

Trying,

Jim

[Artsys]

Hey Jim,

Let's drill down to thinking/thoughts. It seems like you're pretty stuck there.

Take a look at the following link and let me know what you find.

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ughts.html

~Art

[Jim]

Art,

Great stuff. Great exercises.

Close your eyes....   
 Watch thoughts come and go....


Where do thoughts arise from? Where do thoughts go to? 

Thoughts arise from I DON'T KNOW WHERE.  A thought occurs sometimes in response to a sensation--perhaps a sight or a sound.  A thought occurs sometimes in response to a previous thought.  But, I think, that only refers to the contents of the thought, or what the thought is about.  The actual thought comes from I DON'T KNOW WHERE.   When I look it seems like thoughts just arise out of some kind of black area--out of nothing.  But I suspect that that is just another thought.  Thought just appear like a blinking light in the pitch black night.  They appear and vanish, then the next, then the next.  

I could spend a lot of time debating and wondering about the content of my thoughts--"why did I think that?" or "where did that thought come from".  But the thoughts are like heart beats they just keep going and going and going.

Can you stop a thought that has arisen?

I cannot stop a thought.  I can think about something else, but thoughts do what they will.  

Can you choose to only think thoughts of a blue flower?

I can choose to only think of a blue flower for about a second.  I cannot just think about a blue flower and nothing else for any period of time.  Thoughts continue.  I have no real control of their content.  Although their content seems to be dependent in some ways on my memories and sensations and conditioning, etc.  Trying to think only about this, or not about that, shows that I have no control over thinking.

Can you choose to NOT think about a pink elephant?

I cannot NOT think about a pink elephant.

Can you think a thought?

Thoughts are happening.  "I" cannot think them.  They happen

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

No thoughts are just happening--"I" am not thinking them.

Are they YOUR thoughts?

Hmmmm. Are they "MY" thoughts?  Yes, because they are happening to me and not to anyone else...???  Not sure.  I will spend more time with this question. 

These were great exercises to look at thinking.  I feel like I am gradually getting used to the idea that "I" am not thinking--thinking is just happening.  I seem to get stuck at the next question, though:  Am "I" aware of thoughts? Still seems like there is some ME other than my thoughts that is answering questions and deciding this and that. SEEMS LIKE IT

Joyfully,

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

Great work on these exercises.

It's clear to you now that you don't control your thoughts. Can you tell me if you are your thoughts?

When you read THIS sentence. Who is it that's reading it? Are they just words being seen in direct experience filtered by thought?

Take a look at how the "I" thought is tied to everything you experience, and tell me if that thought is used as a label for the "I".

Now look at the following link and report your findings.

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html

Using direct experience as your reference.

~Art

[Jim]

Art,

Can you tell me if you are your thoughts?

I'm not sure. Am I my thoughts? Maybe, because there is nothing else. Well maybe "I" am a combination of my thoughts, and my body and my conditioning. Maybe "I" is just a collection of things, like hands and heart and thoughts and sensations and feelings.

But I think I would say "no. I am not my thoughts". Because thoughts are thoughts. I think that thoughts are actual things, brain waves or neurons firing or whatever, But "I" is not a thing. "I" is just an idea. Thoughts exist. "I" does not exist.


They are not MY thoughts, because there is no "me".  There are just thoughts.  But this is where I get stuck, I think.  Because the thoughts that I experience are different than the thoughts you experience.  There is something separate. My thoughts and my sensations are unique.  I guess that is why I keep reverting to a sense of a separate self.  It is so hard to look at directly.  In direct experience, when looking at my thoughts and sensations, I can never find a self behind any of it.  There is just thought.  There is just sensation.  But that vague idea of self is almost always there.  I need to get up early tomorrow.

I will reply to the rest of the post tomorrow.

Thank you

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

I'll await your reply on the remaining aspects.

In the meanwhile consider this:

If you aren't your thoughts, and you can't control what thoughts will come or where they come from; is there a 'you' apart from thoughts?

Are these thoughts always tied to direct experience sensations and the 5 senses?

Is there a self, or has there ever been a self in existence? Please look and answer

~Love

[Jim]

Art,

Thank you for the follow-up. I am in a good place with this stuff this evening.

When you read THIS sentence. Who is it that's reading it? Are they just words being seen in direct experience filtered by thought?

Great question. Good.  Reading just happened.  There was not a "me".  Just the experience of reading.  When I pay attention, it is clear.  Reading happens.  Thinking happens.

Take a look at how the "I" thought is tied to everything you experience, and tell me if that thought is used as a label for the "I". 

That is how it looks in direct experience.  "I" read or "I" see or "I" think.  The "I" is just way of saying that this experience is taking place.  Right now I can notice that experience is taking place, but there is no "I" present, only the experience.

Doing the dE exercises again, I am better at sticking to direct experience than I was just a couple weeks ago. I feel OK with the activity of walking, or lifting my arm taking place WITHOUT "ME" DOING IT. Thoughts, actions, sensations, more thoughts--just happening. Right now there is no "Jim" doing anything. Nice.

I am going to see if this will last this time.

Thanks,

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

That's fantastic. Keep looking throughout the day. See where the "I/me/my/self" crop up and label experience, and then claims ownership.

Also, the thought may come up saying "this may last or may not last", can you see that even if it's a thought that says that, you don't own or control your thoughts, and they also come and go. Experience is.

Let me know if you can see a separate self anywhere, if not are you comfortable with receiving the final questions.

Really good work...!

~Art

[Jim]

Art,

Thank you for the guidance and the re-assurance.

Keep looking throughout the day. See where the "I/me/my/self" crop up and label experience, and then claims ownership.

Yep.  I can see specific instances when self crops up--especially whenever I feel a little insecure; I start thinking "what about me?" "what should I do?" "I need to..."  I see that happen a lot.  I am sure there are other circumstances where "self" seems to be there. I will look.

Also, the thought may come up saying "this may last or may not last", can you see that even if it's a thought that says that, you don't own or control your thoughts, and they also come and go. Experience is.

I think I can see that.  Like I discussed in the previous paragraph, I can notice times that "self" crops up, and then after that happens I may start to think "damn, I lost it."  But I can see that those are just thoughts that follow, one to the next.  I know that thoughts are simply occurring in response to some stimulus--other thoughts, sensations, feelingS, whatever. I know there is no THINKER, just THOUGHTS.

I also had expectations that there would be a moment when everything would change--when I would experience that "seeing that can't be unseen" and I would never have those "self" moments again.  However, my experience here has been more like a gradual wearing away of the association with "I/me/self".  I realize we say that we need to suspend all expectations; but that is so hard to do. I was missing some of the change that was taking place because I assumed it would be different.

I am grateful for the experience as it is.

Let me know if you can see a separate self anywhere, if not are you comfortable with receiving the final questions.

I would answer that as follows:  I cannot find a separate self anywhere--ever.  When I look, I can see clearly that there is just experience.  I do not find a separate self--or an experiencer, or a doer, or a see-er, or a hearer.  However, I do still have some habitual thinking (like moments of insecurity I mentioned earlier) where the sense or vague belief in self comes back.  Just because I have a fifty year old habit of thinking "I am doing this. I am thinking, I am walking, etc. doesn't mean that there really is an "I" doing any of that.

I'm not sure if I explained that clearly.  I want to continue with the direct Experience exercises.

I'm ready if you think I'm ready

Respectfully submitted,

Jim