Bill - Ready to start

[Bill]

hi Bill

It feels open, less crowded, but very ordinary

I had the usual expectations, although tempered by hearing lots about how ordinary it was. Of course I had expectations of being a bit special and different, maybe I would get a quiet wisdom and people would notice an extra little glint in my eyes.......

Kathy - who is it that they would notice having this extra glint in their eyes?

This is where it gets a bit paradoxical, because the actual experience here is that there is still an appearance of a me, but that it is not so believed in any more. Belief seems to be dropping away and the thoughts that say I am definitely a person are a not so believed. There is an underlying knowledge, separate from thought, that there is no me. I have not had a road to Damascus moment, rather this is ordinary, but I feel this will continue to open.

Yes. I like this.

However, even writing this, doubting thought comes in. I can allow this and see it as the thought that has protected me all these years and respect it without believing it. Such a dense thicket of thought, but light there too now and where there seemed to be an inpenetrable walll, I can see it is not really so.

Thought and stories seem so very real.
What is real?
Are stories real?

[Krm]

Hi Bill

.

Kathy - who is it that they would notice having this extra glint in their eyes?

Hmm, yes, it should be Kathy, me, but when I look, there is space and sensation, plus thoughts about an I, sometimes believed, sometimes seen through

.

Thought and stories seem so very real.
What is real?
Are stories real?

Yes, very real. What is real is sitting at my keyboard, sensation, thoughts, furrowing of brow, sounds. Sotries are not real, but seem so when believed.

Thank you
Kathy

[Bill]

Hi Kathy,

I can see and you've indicated you're ready for the final questions.
Just answer fully and from the heart.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

6) Anything to add?

[Krm]

Hello Bill

Would like to sit with these and come back tomorrow if that's ok

Thanks

Kathy

[Bill]

Take your time Kathy. No rush for any of this.

[Krm]

Hello Bill

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I have seen that there is no me, but this seems to come and go depending on whether I am aware and how strong thoughts are. When I see clearly, I can see that there has never been in any way, shape or form

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

I think it is the thought and habit which attaches to the normal functions of being a human being. There are instincts, such as self protection, getting etc and we are taught that we are separate children at an early age. The thoughts habits and contractions form then and are reinforced throughout our lives

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

If I am really honest, I am finding it hard to see this right at this moment. Generally it takes a little looking and quiet for me to see each time. When I see that there is no self, it is very ordinary, but it opens up something naturally. It feels like a relief and a slight surprise and it has a spacious feel to it. Light

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

That is difficult. I would say it is like a thicket of thoughts and beliefs and these create the illusion that there is a person, some kind of entity.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

For me the writing and sitting answering questions was very important. There was a specific period of time, but maybe not a moment, when it dawned on me. I would say "dawned on me" is a good way to describe it. It was as if I was writing and then got a glimpse, then thought "no sure not, this can't be it...oh, it is!!" Then I knew.

There is is a lot of gratitude. Also confusion and tangled thoughts. It feels as if thoughts have staged a backlash somehow. A reaction maybe. I am not sure, as I have other stuff going on at the moment, but I have noticed over the years that realisations are often followed by difficult character traits rearing their heads. I am trying to allow these to be there, just present without getting caught up, but it has been difficult today.

Thoughts are thick and tangled today, but writing this there is more realisation again about no me, then thought saying "rubbish", then knowing etc.

I have tried to write from my heart, honestly

Thank you

Kathy

[Bill]

Hello Kathy,

As we discussed, there does seem to be a bit of uncertainty still.
You feel it, I feel it, then other times you clearly say you have seen.

One of our other guides suggested I ask you the remaining questions
we have first.... Could you go ahead with these before we continue with
any more inquiry.

Here they are:

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke? (if you feel this is applicable)

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

[Krm]

Hi Bill

Here goes

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

This is an unquestioned assumption really and seems to be needed in the world. Well, that is from my thoughts I suppose. I was just sitting with that question afterwards and I could not see what this I is. Looking felt really strange, a bit like the kind of feeling I used to get as a child wondering why I was this particular person. There is a knowing that there is no I, but there is also the conditioning and thought. I cannot find what I refers to, except a feeling of being.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look.

I cannot find an experiencer, the nearest thing seems to be a contraction around the face and behind the eyes and thought. But that is experience too and when I sit quietly that is seen.

Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

Apart from a sense of location, the only sense I get of the body is experiencing in the form of sensation, sound etc, so it cannot be the former. But if there is no body, then that cannot belong to experience either, because there is only the experience and the idea of a body.

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke? (if you feel this is applicable)

I saw for a few hours on a couple of occasions, then thought took over again. What I experienced was relief and relaxation and a simple way of being and a kind of subtle aha. Not a big awakening experience though

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

For the hours following this, I was aware and kept looking to see if it was really true. There was a knowing and a certain feeling that seemed to come with this, again, relief as above. This seemed to wear off over time

When I asked for the final questions, there was a thought saying, well you did see and maybe will see again, but that maybe that was as far as I would get. Also, as you said there are different experiences of seeing and I thought maybe mine was one of the very subtle, intermittent ones. But thought has also come back in and doubt galore.

I would like to go on. Writing this helps to separate thought from reality though. Thought is getting annoying!

Thank you

Kathy

[Bill]

Kathy - thank you for your honest answers. I do think you are very close..let's keep at the inquiry.

What if there is no self to actually go through this 'process' of seeing there is 'no self'?

What if all of these are just thoughts of a 'self' are only that... thoughts?

What if there is just Life, lifing?

Just relax and LOOK. Can you really find
an I anywhere but in thought?

[Krm]

Thank you Bill

Will look and get back to you

Kathy

[Krm]

Hello Bill, would like to spend a bit more time on this if possible. Will post soon, but coming up against a lot of mental resistance.....

Thank you

Kathy

[Krm]

Hello again Bill

I would just like to be honest about what has been going on here over the last days. I have been feeling very despondent and frustrated at not getting this.

It feels as if the seeing and knowing for a few hours has somehow provoked a backlash. There have been quite strong feelings of dissatisfaction, anger, feeling stuck etc. Intolerance to those around me at work, and feelings of wanting to protect myself. It feels somehow that this is connected to having seen. There has been a real struggle then, to detach from those feelings, do something "spiritual" with them, analyse them, struggle to let them go. All in all being caught up in emotion and struggle and the more I try not to struggle, to relax, the more I feel caught.

At the same time I have been feeling that I will never get "it", thoughts say that I need to try really hard, but other thoughts get angry that I am not getting it. Other thoughts still envy those who seem to see easily. Seeking comes back in and thought looks for something to do, some way to help, some way to "get it". Frustration increases.......There is a strong habit of doing, of having a goal and achieving it, that is no good here!!

I try to relax, but of course this stops the relaxation. This sounds like it could turn into self pity...but that is not it really either.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just want to be honest and open with all of this. At least then we both know what is happening here.

I then decided to do some more reading and in the Gateless Gatecrashers book. I have been reading a conversation between Elena and Michael, where, thank goodness, he goes through nearly exactly the same things as above. So more ease here to a certain extent, but still the frustration.

I had been wanting to give up. Partly this seems because the mind would find it a lot easier, and feel more in control to just be able to say it didn't work. To keep on and risk these difficult feelings feels more out of control if that makes sense, and the mind doesn't like that.

I would like to continue if you are still happy to guide.

thank you

Kathy

But I do really want to do this and want to carry on, whatever that takes.

[Bill]

This is all a normal reaction Kathy.

The self doesn't give up easily.
Its been in charge for a long time.
Your feelings of wanting to give up, frustration and all of this are OK.
Is there fear that is lurking?
If you can find it, bring it up so we can talk about it?
What's the worst that could happen?

Remember what we are looking for is seeing the illusion of the self.
All the great spiritual teachers point to this same illusion.
And seeing your thoughts is the start.

Can you take today, and read back through the start of the thread
and do a refresher? Just bring yourself up to date.
I can tell you to let go, not worry and all that, but you know that already.

For me, this was similar, in that I had this intellectual understanding but really
just couldn't put it together easily.

There is no I, its only a thought in your head. Just like chair is a thought, I is a thought.
There is no 'you' to get this. Getting just happens.

Will be here as long as you need or want.

Here's something I found... a little exercise.

If you write a name on a piece of paper, will the piece of paper be that name?
If you get a pet and give it a name, will the pet be that name?
Or will it just be a pet you named in that way?
Was the pet breathing and eating and drinking before you gave it that name?
And how about you. If you had another name, would you still be breathing and eating and drinking?
If you had no name at all, would breathing, eating, and drinking still be happening?
Breathing, eating, and drinking are happening to no one.
They are just happening.
There is nothing and nobody behind the experiencing.

[Krm]

Hi Bill

Will read through the thread again and thanks for your patience

Kathy

[Krm]

Hello Bill,

I have started to read back through the thread. It is quite powerful and also brings up a strange sort of baffled feeling. It seems to be because those posts were, in my mind at least, written by me, but at the same time they are about there being no me. It is very strange and feels like a good thing to do.

We have a guest arriving soon and I don't want to rush the reading, as it is making me really look at what is here in what feels an unsettling way. It feels similar to the bewildered feeling from wondering why I was/am this particular person that I used to feel as a child, and which I mentioned earlier. I could almost sense I was pure awareness and yet I also seemed to be this one particular person... It was a very strange feeling. I too feel that something is near, but as soon as that is thought, the mind starts putting an awful pressure on reality and it becomes a goal to achieve!

I think there are fears lurking too. A definite fear of the unknown and of losing control. I would also like to sit with that one longer.

More later....

Thanks

Kathy