The Gate

An overlay.

Hi Neal,

That is difficult to process.

Sorry which process do you mean?

You are not actually processing, that involves the mind and will result in more problems. All you are doing here is looking without filtering through the mind.

He is a quick example (don't do this whilst driving:)). If you are seated just close your eyes for 5 seconds and then open them. Notice the moment your eyes are open you see everything in front of you in the room. You are not labelling anything well not for the first few seconds anyway.

I have just realized I have held onto old pain and fear as part of what defined me.

These are the big ones that underly a large percentage of what prevents people from seeing.

Who would you be without this old pain and fear.
I like this pointer,

Fear is your friend. It is trying to protect you. In this case, it is not fear of a real danger. There are no snakes. It is trying to protect you from something imagined something that might happen, something that might happen if you see clearly. What are the possible consequences if total dis-identification with the story occurs? Do you think you are going to become an unmotivated zombie or something?

Your true nature is that which is aware of what is happening..it is NOT the happening.

Experiencing an odd struggle, as if desperately grabbing for a solid edge to hang onto while also watching this struggle calmly.

This sounds like it was written by a 'guru'.
The question is who or what is doing the watching or is there just awareness.

After awakening life goes on just as before, there will be all the usual upsets, occasional anger, annoyances, anxiety etc but they are happening to 'no one'. Sensations will arise in the body and it will react how it normally does. You will be very aware of this and it is almost like it is happening to someone else and you are watching. Sometimes in my experience it is quite fun even painful things.

It just is. Is first. The idea of belonging or owning comes after. Its existence is primary. My perception of its existence is secondary, an idea of it relative to an idea of me..

An overlay.

I like that. "Overlay". That is exactly what the mind does. it overlays crap onto what is from an early age about the age kids start using words (2-3 yrs).

So at this stage are you noticing thoughts, sensations, emotions just arising. Where are 'you' at?

Cheers

Ian

"Sorry which process do you mean?"

I'm not sure what I meant when I wrote that. It was part of an intense but brief sense of struggling.

"Who would you be without this old pain and fear."

I don't know.

"So at this stage are you noticing thoughts, sensations, emotions just arising. Where are 'you' at?"

I'm not sure. I just keep doing what you asked and observing my experience from moment to moment. I don't look back. I don't look ahead. I don't try to relate the moment to myself or this or that. It still happens. The idea of myself seems less important as I keep looking. I still sense an "I". I think reflexively this or that is happening to me. But I keep looking and can't clearly distinguish the me it is happening to from the experience.

Hi Neal

I still sense an "I".

That might disappear or it might not, after all you have how many years of conditioning there?. The thing is you know you are not the “I” so it doesn’t matter.

You will still "sense" an I until de-conditioning occurs but that will happen each time you ‘SEE’ that you are operating from a story. Basically you have just got your driver’s licence….you are not Michael Schumacher yet.

When I was a little boy I loved Santa Clause I would get really excited each time I saw him and then one day at the age of 27 I found out he was not real. Now when I see him in shopping centres other than resisting the urge to sit on his lap, a little bit of excitement pops up but do I have to conduct an inquiry about whether or not he is real …no. Just old conditioned habit patterns popping up. I love looking at the blue ocean yet I know in reality the water is not blue.

Do I still like to be right, do I still argue, get annoyed, occasionally irritated, angry etc …yes but nowhere near as often as before and the thing is most of the time I am aware of doing it and very quickly drop it. Your awareness is choiceless. You do not choose to be aware you just are. This is your natural state without the overlay as you so accurately put it. In fact now you are even aware of the overlay so these sort of things that might have had you trapped before in your story will lose their impact.

Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be? Take your time on this but look from direct experience.

One other thing, have you notice that the mind is getting a little quieter and are you experiencing brief periods of silence or ‘no thought.’

Cheers

Ian

The activity is still there but I don't get caught up in it as much. It is like my heartbeat or blinking. I am aware of it but not analyzing it.

Hi Neal,
I have a sense you are hanging around close to the 'gate'. There are few things I would like to make sure that you are clear on.

The activity is still there but I don't get caught up in it as much.

1. What is this I that doesn't get caught up in it as much? Does it exist?

2. Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be? Take your time on this but look from direct experience.

Cheers

Ian

1. Awareness of awareness. The "I" exists in reference only, contingent to experience. There isn't a separate "I" it's happening to.

2. I cannot precede experience. Experience is primary. "I" cannot exist apart from that, so "I" must be secondary or overlaying experience.

Pain is just pain. It is not "my" pain, meaning no investment in it or conceptualizing of it. Thoughts are just thoughts. Seeing is just seeing. Like how breathing is breathing.

There's a sense of gradual cessation of identification with self-reinforcing thoughts, almost like relaxing a stiff muscle that was tense for a long time. Yet habitual attempts to re-assert those identifications continue.

Hi Neal,

Loved your answers. I think you are ready for the final questions for confirmation. One or two you have probably already answered but if you can just answer them again because a number of other guides are going to read them. Take your time with the questions.

Go back to my first post and read how to use the 'quote' function that way you can easily and copy and paste the questions I will give you and it makes it easy for you and the guides confirming.

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.


1a) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?


1b) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



6) Describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?



7) In what ways has thing changed your life? What impact will this have on your life?



8) What if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?



9) Do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?



Your answers will be reviewed by other guides. clarifications may be asked, or you will be confirmed. you will then have access to our post-gate groups for further discussion/chat/inquiry, etc.

Cheers

Ian

I will do my best. It will take some time.

1a) There is a sense of "I" relative to location and circumstance, but upon close examination there is no one the accompanying thoughts and sensations "belong" to. It would be like believing I own a unique brand of fear or love all my own. Fear is fear and love is love. Circumstance fashions the apparent difference, not any intrinsic originator/creator of thoughts, emotions, ect.

1b) An idea. Which is merely re-packaged experience itself, labeled and fitted in amongst other associations.

2) It appears to be a linguistic & conceptual feedback loop of self-reference precipitated by a priori categorization and analysis of experience.

3) It feels like a paradigm shift not unlike when I was a boy and loved discovering new words, except this is more like unlearning the words.

4) Metaphorically? A mirror reflecting a mirror ad nauseam. An empty sourceless metaphorical function; self acting as the metaphorical point of reference for sensual information and accruing an ostensible "objectivity" from the recursion.

I'll have to finish later, sorry.

5) It is a matter of repetition of naked observation. Each arising thought, feeling, ect. is observed dispassionately without assumption of how it "should" be related to or "should" relate to anything else.

6) I don't understand this question.

7) I don't know.

8) The proof is in the pudding. There are surely cults that misuse and manipulate for some gain or another. I am satisfied with my own experience of the subjectivity of self, and I do not doubt the method of direct observation can be very effective regardless of any potential abuses or selfish motivations.

9) You seem like a nice person.

Hi Neal,

Thanks for your considered reply. I have posted your answers to the site for guides and we will just wait and see what questions they might have if any. What I would like you to do for the next day or so is to just be with it and report the experiences in and around life, alone and with others.

Finally, "With 'Neal' gone, what's left?"

Cheers

Ian